[NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,
Sunshine
sunshine81780 at att.net
Mon May 22 17:17:13 UTC 2017
I may have miscounted my score so will do it again! I do exactly as I'm taught with my dogs, but I do take hikes and there were a few other things. I kept getting interrupted. I might only be a 10 for all I know! So back to the drawing board I'll go. Smiles! I know I'm not a huge risk taker and don't like to deviate very much. Smiles!
Hugs
----- Original Message -----
From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: his'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, May 22, 2017 11:35 am
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,
>
>
> Not me, Cindy. I scored about 9 or 10 because I do exactly what they say
> '''. except when I don't.
> Cindy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sunshine via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 11:32 AM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Sunshine <sunshine81780 at att.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing
> contained within,
>
> Wow, you scored 40! That's good. I didn't score that high! Mine was 25.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Monday, May 22, 2017 9:01 am
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing
> contained within,
>
> >
> >
> > Hi, Sunshine. I am re posting it below so yew can see the scale.
> > Perhaps that message slipped by in all of the heavy list traffic lately.
> > Yes, I came up with it myself, but being that I am no expert and no
> > professional, it is doubtless incomplete in some respects. For
> > instance since posting it, I thought of a few other factors. For
> > instance, being a person of size, I.E. drastically overweight should
> > be grouped as a relevant factor along something like belonging to a racial
> minority.
> > Living in poverty especially in a less than safe neighborhood should
> > be grouped along with factors such as working in unsafe neighborhoods.
> > Also, having a mental health disorder, whether or not you take
> > medications, whether or not you receive counseling should be listed as
> > factors. I would put things like bi-polar or sczitsafrania as a 5
> > factor and things like PTSAID, Major depression or TBI as a 3 point
> > item, and things like seasonal affective disorder or post partum
> > depression as a 1 factor. So, I would welcome any feedback so as to
> > refine this tool. I think I might also run it by a few blind social
> > workers and psychologests and see what they think about the factors
> > and the point values that I have come up with. So, please see below
> > for the post in its entirity.
> >
> >
> > Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,
> > Hi, Brenda and list. Well, I want to talk about low and high
> > risks related to ownership policies. I am not going to bash any school
> > or to debate whether ownership is a deal breaker issue, because for
> > some people it is and for some it is not. What I want to do is to give
> > you a rough outline of a scale you can use to look at how the
> > situation of a theoretical handler might increase or decrease their
> > risk for an issue of repossession of a guide taking place.
> > You need not feel compelled to share your answers with the list, but
> > it might be helpful to you or to other listers.
> >
> > So, let's assume a few things and then consider them. A. You are a
> > perfect handler, who receives the perfect dog, from a school who is
> > always fair. In that case, ownership would matter only in the
> > theoretical realm of blindness philosophy, but logistically it
> > wouldn't make any difference to the team.
> > However, no handler, dog, team or school is perfect. Next scenario. B.
> > You are a great handler with a dog from a not very reasonable school.
> > There is
> > some risk, but not too much if the handler plays by the rules. C. You
> > are not a very competent or compliant handler, but your school is also
> > not a very vigilant or punitive school, and so, no issues related to
> > repossession of the dog are likely to arise. Finally, D. You are a
> > substandard handler from a very aware and parental school. You are
> > almost certain to encounter trouble. . As no school is perfect, every
> > single school will on occasion be unfair to a handler, just as at
> > every school there will be some handlers who screw up, that is life
> > and the law of averages. I know of at least one handler from the
> > following schools who has shared with me that they have had a dog
> > taken back, where, if they are being truthful, I absolutely feel that
> > the school was in the wrong, in whole or in part: GDB, GEB, Fidelco,
> > GDD, GDF, UGDA (note, no longer exists) GDT. I know of at least one
> > case of a handler engaging in handling and treatment of the dog that I
> > do think should have warranted repossession of the dog, again, if they
> > were being truthful, in which the school did nothing at the following
> > schools: GEB, GDF, GDB, GDD, Eye Dog Foundation, UGDA (no longer
> > exists) and Freedom Guide Dogs. Out of all of the schools in the
> > country I would recommend the Seeing Eye as your absolute best bet for
> > avoiding the pitfalls that can come from a school's ownership
> > policies. I would say that Freedom is also a fairly low risk. I would
> > say that Fidelco and GDB would be one of your highest risk schools and
> > all of the rest fall somewhere in the middle of the risk spectrum in
> > terms of their history of repossessing dogs for both valid and invalid
> > reasons. These are not at all quality statements regarding the worth
> > of either the dogs or the training programs. I am simply speaking to
> > the issue of likelihood of a dog being removed from the handler's care
> > by the school. But, it is very important that you first figure out how
> > much of a risk you face for an ownership policy to become troublesome
> > for you as a handler. See below:
> >
> > I would suggest that you prioritize or not, the aspect of the
> > ownership policy in your decision making process based on how great of
> > a risk you face for potentially upsetting your school. Now, I am not
> > talking about harming, neglecting, beating or otherwise misusing or
> > mistreating the dog, as A.
> > you would
> > not do that, and B. those would be reasonable grounds for your dog to
> > be taken away. What I am talking about are the factors that often
> > cause schools to take punitive action. Here is a list that is by no
> > means exhaustive. See how many you check off, and then decide based
> > upon that how important an ownership policy is for you in your
> > personal situations. Each item has a number after it. Add up your
> > points at the end and calculate your score, then look at the rough
> > idea scoring guide. In each group of three, please only select one
> > option, or if you don't ever fit any of those categories, then put
> > down a zero.
> > I will give you my score at the end. These are only examples and not
> > at all value judgements about you or any other lister. They are
> > guidelines based on what some schools have the potential to freak out
> > about. Every school is different, every trainer or administrator is
> > different, and schools can change over time improving or declining,
> > so, keep that in mind.
> >
> > A.
> >
> > You intend to feed your dog a raw diet, either the BARF method or the
> > prey model diet, 5,
> >
> > You intend to feed your dog a home cooked diet composed of cooked
> > meat, eggs, grains and or vegetables and vitamin supplements, 3,
> >
> > You intend to switch your dog off of the school's brand to an organic,
> > human grade or grain free dry dog food, 1,
> >
> > B.
> >
> > You intend to cross train your dog to perform tasks to mitigate a
> > secondary disability that you might have such as adding medical alert
> > tasks, psychiatric service, etc, 5,
> >
> > You intend to add extensive additional training to enhance your guide
> > dog's work, clicker training, target training, specialized find
> > commands, running with your dog, retrieval tasks, etc, 3,
> >
> > You intend to make some minor modifications to your dog's command
> > repertoire, such as adding a command to turn about 180 degrees, to
> > find and distinguish between words such as elevator, stairs and
> > escalator, some mild hand targeting to aid in off-leash recall, etc,
> > 1,
> >
> > C.
> >
> > You intend to engage in high intensity dog sports with your dog such
> > as skijuring, agility trials, tracking or hunting or water rescue
> > trials, etc, 5,
> >
> >
> > You intend to engage in some moderate intensity dog sports with your
> > guide such as, fly ball, obedience trials, cross country skiing,
> > walking marathons or half marathons with your dog, 3,
> >
> > You intend to engage in mild sports with your dog, hiking,
> > participation in walks such as 5Ks and 10ks, 1,
> >
> > D.
> >
> > You intend to do tyders before getting any vaccines for your dog, to
> > use only essential oils for flee and tick preventative, to utilize
> > herbal supplements for your dog, or to utilize the services of a
> > veterinary acupuncturist, 5,
> >
> > You intend to use conventional flee and tick preventative in the warm
> > months and essential oils for control in the cold months, to use some
> > nutritional, but not herbal supplements, to use tyders for some
> > vaccines, to minimize the use of antibiotics in many situations, you
> > use the services of an accupressurist, but not an acupuncturist, 3,
> >
> > You intend to give all vaccines but to spread them out to separate
> > visits, you will give flee and tick preventative year round, but you
> > will separate it from the heart worm preventative by one week, you use
> > organic grooming products, you engage in canine massage,
> >
> > E.
> >
> > You order and use an alternative harness such as one sold by On the Go
> > or Paw Power Creations, switch from a chain collar to a pinch collar
> > or a simple buckle collar, you have your dog where a light weight back
> > pack to carry some of their own supplies, you dress your dog up in a
> > full on costume for Halloween, 5,
> >
> > You decline the booties the school issues and use Mushers' Secret
> > instead, you use the school's harness but add harness signs and
> > pouches, you switch from a chain collar to a toggle collar or a
> > martingale collar, you put t-shirts and other things on your dog to
> > help remote causes and fund raisers important to you, 3,
> >
> > You regularly put decorative bandanas on your dog, you use a designer
> > leash rather than the school's leash, you get a really flashy fun
> > collar tag, 1,
> >
> >
> > F.
> >
> > You regularly participate in marches, protests, march in gay pride
> > parades or other potentially controversial demonstrations, such as
> > right to life or right to choose, 5,
> >
> > You occasionally attend marches and protests, but they are not
> > frequent and are on the tame to moderate side, 3,
> >
> > You rarely, but sometimes attend controversial lectures, art
> > exhibitions, seminars, etc, 1,
> >
> > G.
> >
> > You have a spouse, adult parent or child living with you who has
> > intensive special needs which can sometimes include violent outbursts
> > or intense bouts of yelling or screaming, even if you have safe plans
> > and management stratagies to use, 5,
> >
> > You have a very hecktic life with one or more individuals in it who
> > can become disruptive or potentially upsetting to your dog, 3,
> >
> > You occasionally visit relatives or cliants who might have some of the
> > challenges described in the first two options, 1,
> >
> > H.
> >
> > You belong to a minority group that often faces descrimination, LGBTQ,
> > especially trans gendered individuals, individual with a green card
> > but not full citizenship in the United States, are a member of a
> > polyamerous relationship, etc, you belong to a highly controversial
> > organization or political party, in which you working your dog might
> > be noticed in public or in publicity, such as the KKK, the communist
> > party, the socialist party, the Nazi party, (yes, these extremely
> > contraversicial political parties are legally allowed to exist and
> > legally allowed to peacefully demonstrate, so I mention it, because
> > the blind are not universaly "good" "inocent" or "well behaved" as
> > many sighted steroytypes would portray us) 5,
> >
> > You are a member of a less controversial minority group, seventh day
> > Adventist, strict Islam, orthodox Judaism, racial minority, etc, you
> > belong to a group that your school is moderately likely to object to
> > your being publicly engaged with while working your dog, PETA, Green
> > Peace, the Tea Party, etc, , the occupy movement, 3,
> >
> > You belong to some organizations which your school might object to
> > your appearing in the literature or promotional materials with your
> > dog, such as, NFB, ACB, La Leche League, Gay Strait Alliance, Black
> > Lives Matter, etc, 1,
> >
> > I.
> >
> > You evaluate your schools advice, conduct research, and often make
> > decisions that contradict the advice given in lectures, such as opting
> > to give squeak toys, with close supervision, you will not give raw
> > hide, but you think that elk antlers are acceptable, you wish to use
> > another heart worm preventative than what the school gives you, you
> > ignore advice not to play tug with your dog, never to take them to a
> > dog park, never ever to give your dog people food, etc, and if your
> > school challenged you, you would counter, respectfully, with research
> > that supports your choice and expect to be able to have a reasonable
> > and civil debate about the issue, and would most likely continue with
> > your practice if you truly felt that you were in the right, 5,
> >
> > You occasionally do something different from what your school told you
> > to do, but it is not all across the board and if your school asked you
> > to stop, yew would be willing to do so, but you would expect to be
> > heard out as to your reasoning and not to be penalized, 3,
> >
> > You rarely do things at odds with your schools advice, but you do not
> > follow their guide lines to the letter and if asked to comply you
> > would do so right away and with apologies to the school, 1,
> >
> > J.
> >
> > You take your dog to very stressful environments, thoughtfully,
> > carefully and knowledgeably, such as parades, amusement parks, Time
> > Square on New Years, brothels in places where this is legal, to watch
> > a space shuttle launch, fire works displays at a distance, or at the
> > event with ear protection for the dog, hiking in truly remote
> > wilderness areas, white water rafting, 5,
> >
> > You take your dog into situations such as dangerous inner city
> > neighborhoods, crowded festivals, to dog shows as a spectator, into
> > jails or psychiatric wards, rock concerts, strip clubs, adult book or
> > toy storeseaetc, 3,
> >
> > You take your dog to, cruise ships, musical theater performances with
> > very loud music, theater performances with fake violence, gun shots,
> > smoke and strobe light effects, bars, especially controversial bars
> > such as gay bars or biker bars, 1,
> >
> > There are ten groups, so your maximum score could be 50, your minimum
> > score could be 0, a low risk person might have a score of around 10 to
> > 20, a very, very low risk would be a score of 0 to 10. A moderate risk
> > handler might have a score of 20 to 35 and a high risk handler might
> > have a score of
> > 35 to 50.
> > My score is 40. What puts me into this category? Things like having a
> > spouse with PTSAID who is never violent but who can yell a lot and
> > rarely engages in behaviors like hitting a wall or slamming a door,
> > using a harness made by On The Go, not my school's harness, feeding a
> > raw diet, being a woman who unashamedly breastfeeds in public with my
> > guide laying at my feet, teaching extensive additional commands,
> > although not cross training my dog for other disabilities, walking 5ks
> > with my dog and fully intending to acclimatize her and I and try to
> > walk a marathon or half marathon with her, marching in protests,
> > attending parades or a fireworks display from an increased distance,
> > and also with ear protection for the dog, and so on.
> >
> > For me personally, an ownership policy is one of the most important
> > issues. If you scored 50? Then not considering ownership would be
> > truly foolish, but that is a true extreme, and I highly doubt that you
> > would score a 50. If you score a 0, then rest assured that your risk
> > is virtually non-existent, and aside from any philosophical objections
> > you might have, the functional reality for you makes ownership a
> > non-issue. Again, I highly doubt that you scored a 0. You can do this
> > on your own, think about your score, and certainly any other factors I
> > may have missed, then you can decide for you personally whether the
> > ownership is a thing or not, and either way, you must do what is right
> > for you. So, I'm not debating the ownership question. For me
> > personally it is supremely important, it might also wind up being a
> > crucial point for you, or it might be a virtual non-issue. However,
> > you should not rule it out as a potentially crucial factor until and
> > unless you have assessed your risk for encountering difficulties with
> > your school based on who you are, how you live, what you do, how you
> > handle your dog, what challenges you face, etc.
> >
> > I hope twas helpful.
> >
> >
> > On 5/22/2017 9:45 AM, Sunshine via NAGDU wrote:
> > > I never really had a concern regarding ownership. However, if ownership
> is really important to folks, then they should select schools that offer
> that option. I've not ever had a problem with schools removing my guides,
> but at one school, I filled out ownership papers after two years the second
> time around. However, I knew that no one would remove my guide's. I wish I
> had your orginal post, Heather, as it would be interesting to see where I
> score! Smiles! It looks like a great tool. Did you formulate this survey
> yourself? Smiles!
> > >
> > > Seeing Eye is a great school, was my first and it will always be in my
> heart. I've only been to one other school, a very good one, but TSE truly is
> where I would like to be. My other school is good and I have no complaints,
> but TSE is definitely in my blood!
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Lisa via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> > > Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > > Date: Monday, May 22, 2017 8:33 am
> > > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School
> > > Bashing contained within,
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Hi Heather,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> wow, thanks so much for sharing this.
> > >>
> > >> I'm in Germany and theoretically, this debate about ownership is
> > >> not important for me because over here things are handled very
> > >> differently in the guide dog system but I still answered the
> > >> questions. I got only a 20. I was a bit surprised, I had expected
> > >> more. But these questions are so important to understand how much
> > >> of an issue ownership policies can be for some people including myself.
> > >>
> > >> I would feel seriously limited in handling my dog if I knew my
> > >> school would react to things like teaching him additional tasks or
> > >> taking him to this or that event negatively.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Lisa
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Am 22.05.2017 um 13:56 schrieb margo Downey via NAGDU:
> > >>> I scored 41.
> > >>>
> > >>> Margo and Isis
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
> > >>> Johnson via NAGDU
> > >>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 7:00 AM
> > >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> > >>> Users
> > >>> Cc: Julie Johnson
> > >>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School
> > >>> Bashing contained within,
> > >>>
> > >>> I love this tool! Thanks so much for creating and sharing it! I
> > >>> score in the mid to upper 20's'''x's early and I haven't finished my
> first
> > >>> cup of coffee so math is not my strong suit right now. ininsmile*
> I'm
> > >>> also a long, long way from thinking about a new dog and whether or
> > >>> not I'll attend a program for that dog.
> > >>>
> > >>> Anyway, I did want to add one thought to this excellent tool.
> > >>> Consider how your life might change to include things that you do
> > >>> not currently participate in. I'm thinking in particular about
> > >>> sporting events, marches, concerts, bars etc. If you are a young
> > >>> person living at home or just getting ready to go off to college,
> > >>> your life can look very different than it does now in just a
> > >>> couple of years. I live in a very small town that simply does not
> > >>> have some of these things as an option for me to participate in. I
> have no plans of moving, but life happens.
> > >>> Might I want to do some of these things in the future? Perhaps,
> > >>> and I do think I'd like to have the option of working my dog if I
> > >>> felt it appropriate.
> > >>>
> > >>> Julie
> > >>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 5/22/2017 1:06 AM, Daryl via NAGDU wrote:
> > >>>> This is a very thorough assessment tool. Depending on how I
> > >>>> choose to view it, my score would probably be somewhere between
> > >>>> 26 and 30. I'm half asleep, so my math could be wrong. In any
> > >>>> case, it does tell me the type of school I would need to attend
> > >>>> and that ownership does need to be a consideration with a
> > >>>> successor dog. concom) thank you for this very thorough tool.
> > >>>> concom)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On May 21, 2017 10:31:46 PM MDT, Heather Bird via NAGDU
> > >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > >>>>> Hi, Brenda and list. Well, I want to talk about low and
> > >>>>> high risks related to ownership policies. I am not going to bash
> > >>>>> any school or to debate whether ownership is a deal breaker
> > >>>>> issue, because for some people it is and for some it is not.
> > >>>>> What I want to do is to give you a
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> rough outline of a scale you can use to look at how the
> > >>>>> situation of a theoretical handler might increase or decrease
> > >>>>> their risk for an issue of repossession of a guide taking place.
> > >>>>> You need not feel compelled to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> share your answers with the list, but it might be helpful to you
> > >>>>> or to other listers.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So, let's assume a few things and then consider them. A. You are
> > >>>>> a perfect handler, who receives the perfect dog, from a school
> > >>>>> who is always fair. In that case, ownership would matter only in
> > >>>>> the theoretical realm of blindness philosophy, but logistically
> > >>>>> it wouldn't
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> make any difference to the team. However, no handler, dog, team
> > >>>>> or school is perfect. Next scenario. B. You are a great handler
> > >>>>> with a dog
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> >from a not very reasonable school. There is some risk, but not
> > >>>> >too
> > >>>>> much
> > >>>>> if the handler plays by the rules. C. You are not a very
> > >>>>> competent or compliant handler, but your school is also not a
> > >>>>> very vigilant or punitive school, and so, no issues related to
> > >>>>> repossession of the dog are likely to arise. Finally, D. You are
> > >>>>> a substandard handler from a very aware and parental school. You
> > >>>>> are almost certain to encounter trouble. . As no school is
> > >>>>> perfect, every single school will on occasion be unfair to a
> > >>>>> handler, just as at every school there will be some handlers who
> screw up, that is life and the law of averages.
> > >>>>> I know of at least one handler from the following schools who
> > >>>>> has shared with me that they have had a dog taken back, where,
> > >>>>> if they are being truthful,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I absolutely feel that the school was in the wrong, in whole or
> > >>>>> in
> > >>>>> part:
> > >>>>> GDB, GEB, Fidelco, GDD, GDF, UGDA (note, no longer exists) GDT.
> > >>>>> I know of at least one case of a handler engaging in handling
> > >>>>> and treatment of
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> the dog that I do think should have warranted repossession of
> > >>>>> the dog, again, if they were being truthful, in which the school
> > >>>>> did nothing at the following schools: GEB, GDF, GDB, GDD, Eye
> > >>>>> Dog Foundation, UGDA (no
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> longer exists) and Freedom Guide Dogs. Out of all of the schools
> > >>>>> in the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> country I would recommend the Seeing Eye as your absolute best
> > >>>>> bet for avoiding the pitfalls that can come from a school's
> > >>>>> ownership
> > >>> policies.
> > >>>>> I would say that Freedom is also a fairly low risk. I would say
> > >>>>> that Fidelco and GDB would be one of your highest risk schools
> > >>>>> and all of the rest fall somewhere in the middle of the risk
> > >>>>> spectrum in terms of their history of repossessing dogs for both
> > >>>>> valid and invalid reasons. These are not at all quality
> > >>>>> statements regarding the worth of either the dogs or the
> > >>>>> training programs. I am simply speaking to the issue of
> > >>>>> likelihood of a dog being removed from the handler's care by the
> school.
> > >>>>> But, it is very important that you first figure out how much of
> > >>>>> a risk you face for an ownership policy to become troublesome
> > >>>>> for you as a handler. See below:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I would suggest that you prioritize or not, the aspect of the
> > >>>>> ownership
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> policy in your decision making process based on how great of a
> > >>>>> risk you
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> face for potentially upsetting your school. Now, I am not
> > >>>>> talking about
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> harming, neglecting, beating or otherwise misusing or
> > >>>>> mistreating the dog, as A. you would not do that, and B. those
> > >>>>> would be reasonable grounds for your dog to be taken away. What
> > >>>>> I am talking about are the factors that often cause schools to
> > >>>>> take punitive action. Here is a list that is by no means
> > >>>>> exhaustive. See how many you check off, and then decide based
> > >>>>> upon that how important an ownership policy is for you in your
> personal situations. Each item has a number after it.
> > >>>>> Add up your points at the end and calculate your score, then
> > >>>>> look at the rough idea
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> scoring guide. In each group of three, please only select one
> > >>>>> option, or if you don't ever fit any of those categories, then
> > >>>>> put down a zero. I will give you my score at the end. These are
> > >>>>> only examples and not at all value judgements about you or any
> > >>>>> other lister. They are guidelines
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> based on what some schools have the potential to freak out about.
> > >>>>> Every
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> school is different, every trainer or administrator is
> > >>>>> different, and schools can change over time improving or
> > >>>>> declining, so, keep that in mind.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> A.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to feed your dog a raw diet, either the BARF method
> > >>>>> or the prey model diet, 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to feed your dog a home cooked diet composed of
> > >>>>> cooked meat,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> eggs, grains and or vegetables and vitamin supplements, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to switch your dog off of the school's brand to an
> > >>>>> organic, human grade or grain free dry dog food, 1,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> B.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to cross train your dog to perform tasks to mitigate
> > >>>>> a secondary disability that you might have such as adding
> > >>>>> medical alert tasks, psychiatric service, etc, 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to add extensive additional training to enhance your
> > >>>>> guide dog's work, clicker training, target training, specialized
> > >>>>> find commands, running with your dog, retrieval tasks, etc, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to make some minor modifications to your dog's
> > >>>>> command repertoire, such as adding a command to turn about 180
> > >>>>> degrees, to find
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> and distinguish between words such as elevator, stairs and
> > >>>>> escalator, some mild hand targeting to aid in off-leash recall,
> > >>>>> etc, 1,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> C.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to engage in high intensity dog sports with your dog
> > >>>>> such as
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> skijuring, agility trials, tracking or hunting or water rescue
> > >>>>> trials, etc, 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to engage in some moderate intensity dog sports with
> > >>>>> your guide such as, fly ball, obedience trials, cross country
> > >>>>> skiing, walking marathons or half marathons with your dog, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to engage in mild sports with your dog, hiking,
> > >>>>> participation in walks such as 5Ks and 10ks, 1,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> D.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to do tyders before getting any vaccines for your
> > >>>>> dog, to use only essential oils for flee and tick preventative,
> > >>>>> to utilize herbal supplements for your dog, or to utilize the
> > >>>>> services of a veterinary acupuncturist, 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to use conventional flee and tick preventative in the
> > >>>>> warm months and essential oils for control in the cold months,
> > >>>>> to use some nutritional, but not herbal supplements, to use
> > >>>>> tyders for some vaccines, to minimize the use of antibiotics in
> > >>>>> many situations, you use the services of an accupressurist, but
> > >>>>> not an acupuncturist, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You intend to give all vaccines but to spread them out to
> > >>>>> separate visits, you will give flee and tick preventative year
> > >>>>> round, but you will separate it from the heart worm preventative
> > >>>>> by one week, you use organic grooming products, you engage in
> > >>>>> canine massage,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> E.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You order and use an alternative harness such as one sold by On
> > >>>>> the Go or Paw Power Creations, switch from a chain collar to a
> > >>>>> pinch collar or
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> a simple buckle collar, you have your dog where a light weight
> > >>>>> back pack to carry some of their own supplies, you dress your
> > >>>>> dog up in a full on
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> costume for Halloween, 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You decline the booties the school issues and use Mushers'
> > >>>>> Secret instead, you use the school's harness but add harness
> > >>>>> signs and pouches, you switch from a chain collar to a toggle
> > >>>>> collar or a martingale collar, you put t-shirts and other things
> > >>>>> on your dog to help remote causes and fund raisers important to
> > >>>>> you, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You regularly put decorative bandanas on your dog, you use a
> > >>>>> designer leash rather than the school's leash, you get a really
> > >>>>> flashy fun collar tag, 1,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> F.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You regularly participate in marches, protests, march in gay
> > >>>>> pride parades or other potentially controversial demonstrations,
> > >>>>> such as right to life or right to choose, 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You occasionally attend marches and protests, but they are not
> > >>>>> frequent
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> and are on the tame to moderate side, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You rarely, but sometimes attend controversial lectures, art
> > >>>>> exhibitions, seminars, etc, 1,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> G.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You have a spouse, adult parent or child living with you who has
> > >>>>> intensive special needs which can sometimes include violent
> > >>>>> outbursts or intense bouts of yelling or screaming, even if you
> > >>>>> have safe plans and management stratagies to use, 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You have a very hecktic life with one or more individuals in it
> > >>>>> who can
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> become disruptive or potentially upsetting to your dog, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You occasionally visit relatives or cliants who might have some
> > >>>>> of the challenges described in the first two options, 1,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> H.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You belong to a minority group that often faces descrimination,
> > >>>>> LGBTQ, especially trans gendered individuals, individual with a
> > >>>>> green card but
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> not full citizenship in the United States, are a member of a
> > >>>>> polyamerous relationship, etc, you belong to a highly
> > >>>>> controversial organization or
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> political party, in which you working your dog might be noticed
> > >>>>> in public or in publicity, such as the KKK, the communist party,
> > >>>>> the socialist party, the Nazi party, (yes, these extremely
> > >>>>> contraversicial political parties are legally allowed to exist
> > >>>>> and legally allowed to peacefully demonstrate, so I mention it,
> > >>>>> because the blind are not universaly "good" "inocent" or "well
> > >>>>> behaved" as many sighted steroytypes would portray us) 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You are a member of a less controversial minority group, seventh
> > >>>>> day Adventist, strict Islam, orthodox Judaism, racial minority,
> > >>>>> etc, you belong to a group that your school is moderately likely
> > >>>>> to object to your being publicly engaged with while working your
> > >>>>> dog, PETA, Green Peace, the Tea Party, etc, , the occupy
> > >>>>> movement, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You belong to some organizations which your school might object
> > >>>>> to your
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> appearing in the literature or promotional materials with your
> > >>>>> dog, such as, NFB, ACB, La Leche League, Gay Strait Alliance,
> > >>>>> Black Lives Matter,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> etc, 1,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You evaluate your schools advice, conduct research, and often
> > >>>>> make decisions that contradict the advice given in lectures,
> > >>>>> such as opting to give squeak toys, with close supervision, you
> > >>>>> will not give raw hide, but you think that elk antlers are
> > >>>>> acceptable, you wish to use another heart worm preventative than
> > >>>>> what the school gives you, you ignore advice not to play tug
> > >>>>> with your dog, never to take them to a dog park,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> never ever to give your dog people food, etc, and if your school
> > >>>>> challenged you, you would counter, respectfully, with research
> > >>>>> that supports your choice and expect to be able to have a
> > >>>>> reasonable and civil debate about the issue, and would most
> > >>>>> likely continue with your practice if you truly felt that you
> > >>>>> were in the right, 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You occasionally do something different from what your school
> > >>>>> told you to do, but it is not all across the board and if your
> > >>>>> school asked you to stop, yew would be willing to do so, but you
> > >>>>> would expect to be heard out as to your reasoning and not to be
> > >>>>> penalized, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You rarely do things at odds with your schools advice, but you
> > >>>>> do not follow their guide lines to the letter and if asked to
> > >>>>> comply you would
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> do so right away and with apologies to the school, 1,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> J.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You take your dog to very stressful environments, thoughtfully,
> > >>>>> carefully and knowledgeably, such as parades, amusement parks,
> > >>>>> Time Square on New Years, brothels in places where this is
> > >>>>> legal, to watch a
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> space shuttle launch, fire works displays at a distance, or at
> > >>>>> the event with ear protection for the dog, hiking in truly
> > >>>>> remote wilderness areas, white water rafting, 5,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You take your dog into situations such as dangerous inner city
> > >>>>> neighborhoods, crowded festivals, to dog shows as a spectator,
> > >>>>> into jails or psychiatric wards, rock concerts, strip clubs,
> > >>>>> adult book or toy storeseaetc, 3,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You take your dog to, cruise ships, musical theater performances
> > >>>>> with very loud music, theater performances with fake violence,
> > >>>>> gun shots, smoke and strobe light effects, bars, especially
> > >>>>> controversial bars such as gay bars or biker bars, 1,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> There are ten groups, so your maximum score could be 50, your
> > >>>>> minimum score could be 0, a low risk person might have a score
> > >>>>> of around 10 to 20, a very, very low risk would be a score of 0
> > >>>>> to 10. A moderate risk handler might have a score of 20 to 35
> > >>>>> and a high risk handler might have a score of 35 to 50. My score
> > >>>>> is 40. What puts me into this category? Things like having a
> > >>>>> spouse with PTSAID who is never violent but who can yell a lot
> > >>>>> and rarely engages in behaviors like hitting a wall or slamming
> > >>>>> a door, using a harness made by On The Go, not my school's
> > >>>>> harness, feeding a raw diet, being a woman who unashamedly
> > >>>>> breastfeeds in public with my guide laying at my feet, teaching
> > >>>>> extensive additional commands, although not cross training my
> > >>>>> dog for other disabilities, walking 5ks with my dog and fully
> > >>>>> intending to acclimatize her and I and try to walk a marathon or
> > >>>>> half marathon with her, marching in protests,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> attending parades or a fireworks display from an increased
> > >>>>> distance, and also with ear protection for the dog, and so on.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> For me personally, an ownership policy is one of the most
> > >>>>> important issues. If you scored 50? Then not considering
> > >>>>> ownership would be truly
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> foolish, but that is a true extreme, and I highly doubt that you
> > >>>>> would score a 50. If you score a 0, then rest assured that your
> > >>>>> risk is virtually non-existent, and aside from any philosophical
> > >>>>> objections you
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> might have, the functional reality for you makes ownership a
> non-issue.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Again, I highly doubt that you scored a 0. You can do this on
> > >>>>> your own,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> think about your score, and certainly any other factors I may
> > >>>>> have missed, then you can decide for you personally whether the
> > >>>>> ownership is
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> a thing or not, and either way, you must do what is right for you.
> > >>>>> So, I'm not debating the ownership question. For me personally
> > >>>>> it is supremely important, it might also wind up being a crucial
> > >>>>> point for you, or it might be a virtual non-issue. However, you
> > >>>>> should not rule it out as a potentially crucial factor until and
> > >>>>> unless you have assessed your risk for encountering difficulties
> > >>>>> with your school based on who you are, how you live, what you
> > >>>>> do, how you handle your dog, what challenges you face, etc.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I hope twas helpful.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 5/19/2017 12:36 PM, Brenda via NAGDU wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hello List,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> this week my pet dog Sadie passed over the rainbow bridge. She
> > >>>>>> was
> > >>>>> 15
> > >>>>>> years old and we had a wonderful life together. She is playing
> > >>>>>> with her cat sisters who have gone before her. I will miss her
> > >>>>>> and am
> > >>>>> still
> > >>>>>> sad, but she is no longer suffering so I'm at peace.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> As my vision waned over the years, I became more and more
> > >>>>>> interested in getting a guide dog, but sadie who was an APL
> > >>>>>> rescue didn't like other dogs. I did get O&m training to
> > >>>>>> maintain my independence and have been using my skills and now I am
> ready to apply for a guide.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I have been surfing the guide dog school websites and reading
> > >>>>>> posts from here and elsewhere about different guide dog schools
> > >>>>>> and am now trying to sort things out.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Several schools at the top of my list do not grant full ownership.
> > >>>>>> This concerns me, but other than that I like the schools. One
> > >>>>>> school that does grant ownership is in California. I live in
> > >>>>>> Ohio and don't want to be on a plane for a long time. that may
> > >>>>>> be silly, but I
> > >>>>> can't
> > >>>>>> get over it.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> So'''I would appreciate Listers
> > >>>>>> input/opinions/guidance/thoughts on
> > >>>>> my
> > >>>>>> situation.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> the school I really like is Guiding eyes for the Blind. They
> > >>>>>> do not grant ownership at all, but I have not heard/read
> > >>>>>> anything negative about them. I doubt they are in business to
> > >>>>>> develop teams only to
> > >>>>> take
> > >>>>>> the dog away.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> My intent is not to debate ownership issues. I want to learn
> > >>>>> Listers'
> > >>>>>> experiences with nonownership schools with the focus on GEB.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks for any input.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Brenda
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
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> > >>>>>> NAGDU:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/heather.l.bir
> > >>>>> d%40g
> > >>>>> mail.co
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>> aw.ca
> > >>>
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