[NAGDU] Guide Dogs trained in the US working in Germany? and guide dogs in Germany in General, was, Ownership in Germany - for Rebecca and everyone who's interested

[Heather Bird]

First of all I've got to say that it is deeply sad that guide dogs are 
not very prevalent in Germany given that the Germans are the ones who 
are responsible for our having guide dogs today. The Seeing Eye was the 
first guide dog school in the United States, but it was directly 
inspired by a guide dog training program in Potsdam Germany. The same 
individual who began the Seeing Eye also helped to start schools in the 
UK and I believe possibly in France and Italy. Potsdam really started it 
all. There were some unsuccessful or only short term training programs 
prior to Potsdam, but they didn't last and were only of very poor 
quality. So, it really is sad. However, that two percent figure isn't 
that small. I don't think the percentage in the US is much higher. First 
of all we must consider all of the infants, toddlers, children and 
younger teenagers who are not yet old enough to responsibly handle guide 
dogs. Then there are the senior citizens who are simply too old to use a 
guide dog. I am willing to argue that there is an age at which one 
simply is too old to successfully work a guide dog anymore, due to 
declining health and aging. However, what that age is really depends on 
the health and the attitude of the individual and might start at as 
young as 50 or be up into the 90s because all people are individuals. 
So, the senior citizen population who has passed the point of being able 
to handle a guide takes out more people. Then you have the blind 
individuals who have severe multiple disabilities, primarily cognitive 
disabilities that result in an individual who is only at the low to 
moderate functioning level. There are certainly deaf blind handlers, and 
some wheelchair users who are blind who also use guides. Also there are 
some people diagnosed with Mental Retardation, more recently referred to 
as cognitive impairments or developmental disabilities, who are in the 
high functioning range who can also handle guides if they receive the 
correct training and have adequate support. However there are still a 
large number of severely impaired individuals who cannot use guide dogs. 
So, if we take the older teenage population up through senior citizens, 
some segments of which can not handle dogs any longer, and we exclude 
those with severe multiple impairments, we have a group of average or 
above average intelligent or only slightly below average individuals, 
ranging in age from around 16 to 70, with some outliers in the 12 to 15 
age range and in the 70 to 100 age range, and some incredibly motivated, 
well-supported individuals with serious multiple disabilities. Of this 
remaining group there are millions who have no desire to work a guide 
dog, who think that white canes are superior, despite the fact that 
regardless of the many pros and cons of the cane and the dog, the one 
thing a cane cannot do is perform traffic checks. Then of the remaining 
group who might wish to get a guide, many of these are fearful of dogs, 
terribly allergic to them, live with parents, adult children or spouses 
who refuse to live with a dog of any kind, or belong to religious groups 
who see dogs as unclean or cultures that see dogs as frivolous, 
dangerous or even a food source. Of the remaining individuals who 
actively want a dog, many do not have adequate O and M skills to be 
accepted at a school, do not have a stable enough living environment, or 
do not have the commitment of time and energy to care for and maintain 
the training of a guide dog. That leaves only a very small segment of 
the blind population. The blind population data is variable depending on 
the source you look at. For instance, yew can't look at schools for the 
blind as they have been phased out for the most part except for those 
students who are blind in addition to other disabilities. You can't look 
at NFB and or ACB membership because thousands of people don't belong to 
either organization, and others, contrary to the ideal wishes of their 
organizations, belong to both. Not all people who are blind receive SSDI 
or SSI. Not all people who are blind are signed up with their state's 
Omission for the Blind, or are signed up for NLS service or Newsline or 
Book Share. Also, many people do not openly identify as blind or 
visually impaired especially if they are very high partials or if they 
are just beginning to lose their sight. So, it is extremely difficult to 
determine how many blind people there are in the United States. Does 
anyone know what numbers the NFB, ACB and AFB respectively quote for 
number of blind people in the United States? Taking an average of the 
three estimates might be slightly more accurate. Measuring the number of 
guide dog teams is a bit easier because the schools can provide 
numerical data and while there are owner trainers, they are not a very 
big group. I would like to see the statistics of percentage of guide dog 
handlers in the US and in other countries to be determined as a 
percentage of eligible blind people, not out of all blind people. For 
instance the unemployment rates are determined based on the number of 
people who do not have jobs who would like to get them, not counting 
stay-at-home moms, children, retired persons, etc. My guess off of the 
top of my head for the US is that around 10 to 20 percent of the blind 
population eligible for a guide dog actually use one. For instance, in 
my local chapter we have 15 members, 13 of which are blind, and of those 
13 there are 4 guide dogs, which is around 31%. At a leadership training 
I just attended for leaders in NYS, there were 2 guide dogs out of 
around 20 participants, so that is more like 10 percent. At our state 
convention there were at least 6 guide dogs in attendance. I don't know 
the total numbr of attendees, but I would guess around 100, so that 
would be around 6 percent. I don't know if NFB or ACB has ever tried to 
determine what percentage of their members use guide dogs? It would be a 
bit tricky because not all guide dog users will necessarily belong to 
NAGDU or GDUI respectively in the NFB and the ACB. Also, in surveys 
collecting data about white cane use, many guide dog handlers also count 
themselves as white cane users. For instance, I have one of the free NFB 
white canes, and based on the data they collect during that process I 
would show up as a cane user, but I am also a dog user. So, any info 
people have to contribute regarding estimates would be neat. I am also 
willing to bet that a larger number of NFB and ACB members have guide 
dogs than general blind individuals outside of these organizations. In 
the early days I would guess that ACB would have a greater percentage of 
guide dog users, but these days I would guess that it is probably equal, 
and I might even go so far as to guess, and I have no data to support 
this, but I would guess that NFB might actually have a slightly higher 
percentage of guide dog handlers. Anyway, I don't know how accurate that 
2% figure really is for Germany or how it was reached, and also how that 
compares to the estimate in the United States and how that one was 
arrived at. Moving on...


I got side tracked, but I wanted to ask something else as well. What is 
the policy regarding guide dog handlers in Germany with dogs trained 
elsewhere? Let's say someone from Germany is so impressed with the 
Seeing Eye that they apply to and are accepted there. They train in the 
US then return home to Germany. Or a handler with a dog from GDB living 
in the us, moves to Germany because their spouse, in the military is 
stationed there. Or an individual from the UK moves to Germany. Are the 
access rights the same for the teams with dogs from other countries? Is 
there ever any concern regarding ownership where the dog is owned 
legitimately by the handler, or by a school in the US? For instance, a 
handler with a dog where GEB technically owns the dog, but the team is 
working in Germany? How does that work? Have there been any court cases, 
news articles, disputes, etc that highlight this issue?


Obviously I deeply object on a gut level to an insurance provider owning 
one's Gide dog, even more than to a school retaining ownership. At least 
GEB or Fidelco would have the knowledge and experience to make more 
informed decisions more of the time, then some huge bureaucratic agency 
not specializing in guide dogs.


Wow, kind of scary.


Lastly I am curious about the prevalence of GSDs in Germany. Labs are 
great guides, goldens are great guides, and sometimes also boxers, 
dobermans and poodles, plus the crosses of these breeds, but GSDs were 
the original. Due primarily to the work of the Seeing Eye, Fidelco, and 
apparently they are back in the game and turning things around, also, 
Eye Dog Foundation, GSDs are still a fixture in the US. But, what about 
where they originated? What breeds are most commonly used in Germany. 
There has been some serious stigmatization of GSDs in the US, some due 
to World War II, but a lot generated by the use of GSDs during the civil 
rights protesting era and the race riots, here in the US. Is there a 
similar stigma in Germany due to the use of GSDs by the police, in 
particular the Nazi regime? If so, is it as bad as in the US, or worse? 
The GSD is an amazing breed and I know that there are still really 
meaningful shows in Germany that are attended by breeders and exhibitors 
from all over the world, but I don't know the working status of 
shepherds in the country of their birth as a breed.


Yes, I am a guide dog geek. Yes, I am a german shepherd geek. Freely 
admitted. *smile*



On 5/23/2017 2:36 PM, Bianka via NAGDU wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Lisa, I have heard of some instances here in germany that the health insurance grants ownership to the handler, it depends on which insurance you deal with. Usually, the insurance doesn't really care what happens with the dog when he retires. However, it might get difficult when the dog has to retire early or has to be returned to the school because of a missmatch or just bad training.
>
> It's also a fact that charities providing service dogs in Germany face great difficulties raising the money. It's mainly a cultural thing I guess. I guess if the alternative is having a guide dog or not having a guide dog at all ownership is not the first thing one thinks about :). In Germany, guide dogs and their handlers are a very small minority among the blind. The last time I researched the numbers they talked about 2 to 3 % of the blind but I might have the number wrong.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bianka
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/heather.l.bird%40gmail.com