[NAGDU] Guide Dogs trained in the US working in Germany? and guide dogs in Germany in General, was, Ownership in Germany - for Rebecca and everyone who's interested

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Fri May 26 15:33:35 UTC 2017


Hi Lisa.
It's interesting that there are some Airedale guide dogs in Germany.  I've long thought they would make good guides, especially for someone working in a big city, like me, but I've never heard of them being used here.  Do you happen to know anyone who has one?  To me, they seem like they'd be intelligent, confident, but willing to listen, despite being terriers, because they've been working dogs for a long time.
Tracy


-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:22 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Lisa
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dogs trained in the US working in Germany? and guide dogs in Germany in General, was, Ownership in Germany - for Rebecca and everyone who's interested

Heather,


first of all, I hope Bianka can provide some more info on this because I can only answer a few things.


The most common breed in guide dogs here are labs, I'm pretty sure. 
Followed by Goldens. Poodles, labradoodles, Australian shepherds, 
Airdale Terrieres and Flat coated retrievers are trained, too.

GSDs were very popular as well but nowadays, a lot of schools state 
good, healthy ones are hard to find so they stopped training them and 
focused on other breeds instead. But sadly, that's all i know about 
this. Something that's interesting to me is that dobermans and boxers 
are trained in the US. Dobermans are listed as a dangerous dog breed 
here so they wouldn't be allowed as service dogs. I was fascinated when 
I learnt about Dobermans as guides and they seem to make good ones. :)


I know of two people in Germany who got their dogs from schools in the 
US and I also know they have the same rights here. But I don't know how 
easy or difficult it was for the owners to get them accepted here.

Also, we get a monthly amount of money from our insurance company to buy 
dog food, toys and cover vet bills. I'm also wondering if those owners 
get this, too.

Lisa



Am 24.05.2017 um 16:42 schrieb Heather Bird via NAGDU:
> First of all I've got to say that it is deeply sad that guide dogs are 
> not very prevalent in Germany given that the Germans are the ones who 
> are responsible for our having guide dogs today. The Seeing Eye was 
> the first guide dog school in the United States, but it was directly 
> inspired by a guide dog training program in Potsdam Germany. The same 
> individual who began the Seeing Eye also helped to start schools in 
> the UK and I believe possibly in France and Italy. Potsdam really 
> started it all. There were some unsuccessful or only short term 
> training programs prior to Potsdam, but they didn't last and were only 
> of very poor quality. So, it really is sad. However, that two percent 
> figure isn't that small. I don't think the percentage in the US is 
> much higher. First of all we must consider all of the infants, 
> toddlers, children and younger teenagers who are not yet old enough to 
> responsibly handle guide dogs. Then there are the senior citizens who 
> are simply too old to use a guide dog. I am willing to argue that 
> there is an age at which one simply is too old to successfully work a 
> guide dog anymore, due to declining health and aging. However, what 
> that age is really depends on the health and the attitude of the 
> individual and might start at as young as 50 or be up into the 90s 
> because all people are individuals. So, the senior citizen population 
> who has passed the point of being able to handle a guide takes out 
> more people. Then you have the blind individuals who have severe 
> multiple disabilities, primarily cognitive disabilities that result in 
> an individual who is only at the low to moderate functioning level. 
> There are certainly deaf blind handlers, and some wheelchair users who 
> are blind who also use guides. Also there are some people diagnosed 
> with Mental Retardation, more recently referred to as cognitive 
> impairments or developmental disabilities, who are in the high 
> functioning range who can also handle guides if they receive the 
> correct training and have adequate support. However there are still a 
> large number of severely impaired individuals who cannot use guide 
> dogs. So, if we take the older teenage population up through senior 
> citizens, some segments of which can not handle dogs any longer, and 
> we exclude those with severe multiple impairments, we have a group of 
> average or above average intelligent or only slightly below average 
> individuals, ranging in age from around 16 to 70, with some outliers 
> in the 12 to 15 age range and in the 70 to 100 age range, and some 
> incredibly motivated, well-supported individuals with serious multiple 
> disabilities. Of this remaining group there are millions who have no 
> desire to work a guide dog, who think that white canes are superior, 
> despite the fact that regardless of the many pros and cons of the cane 
> and the dog, the one thing a cane cannot do is perform traffic checks. 
> Then of the remaining group who might wish to get a guide, many of 
> these are fearful of dogs, terribly allergic to them, live with 
> parents, adult children or spouses who refuse to live with a dog of 
> any kind, or belong to religious groups who see dogs as unclean or 
> cultures that see dogs as frivolous, dangerous or even a food source. 
> Of the remaining individuals who actively want a dog, many do not have 
> adequate O and M skills to be accepted at a school, do not have a 
> stable enough living environment, or do not have the commitment of 
> time and energy to care for and maintain the training of a guide dog. 
> That leaves only a very small segment of the blind population. The 
> blind population data is variable depending on the source you look at. 
> For instance, yew can't look at schools for the blind as they have 
> been phased out for the most part except for those students who are 
> blind in addition to other disabilities. You can't look at NFB and or 
> ACB membership because thousands of people don't belong to either 
> organization, and others, contrary to the ideal wishes of their 
> organizations, belong to both. Not all people who are blind receive 
> SSDI or SSI. Not all people who are blind are signed up with their 
> state's Omission for the Blind, or are signed up for NLS service or 
> Newsline or Book Share. Also, many people do not openly identify as 
> blind or visually impaired especially if they are very high partials 
> or if they are just beginning to lose their sight. So, it is extremely 
> difficult to determine how many blind people there are in the United 
> States. Does anyone know what numbers the NFB, ACB and AFB 
> respectively quote for number of blind people in the United States? 
> Taking an average of the three estimates might be slightly more 
> accurate. Measuring the number of guide dog teams is a bit easier 
> because the schools can provide numerical data and while there are 
> owner trainers, they are not a very big group. I would like to see the 
> statistics of percentage of guide dog handlers in the US and in other 
> countries to be determined as a percentage of eligible blind people, 
> not out of all blind people. For instance the unemployment rates are 
> determined based on the number of people who do not have jobs who 
> would like to get them, not counting stay-at-home moms, children, 
> retired persons, etc. My guess off of the top of my head for the US is 
> that around 10 to 20 percent of the blind population eligible for a 
> guide dog actually use one. For instance, in my local chapter we have 
> 15 members, 13 of which are blind, and of those 13 there are 4 guide 
> dogs, which is around 31%. At a leadership training I just attended 
> for leaders in NYS, there were 2 guide dogs out of around 20 
> participants, so that is more like 10 percent. At our state convention 
> there were at least 6 guide dogs in attendance. I don't know the total 
> numbr of attendees, but I would guess around 100, so that would be 
> around 6 percent. I don't know if NFB or ACB has ever tried to 
> determine what percentage of their members use guide dogs? It would be 
> a bit tricky because not all guide dog users will necessarily belong 
> to NAGDU or GDUI respectively in the NFB and the ACB. Also, in surveys 
> collecting data about white cane use, many guide dog handlers also 
> count themselves as white cane users. For instance, I have one of the 
> free NFB white canes, and based on the data they collect during that 
> process I would show up as a cane user, but I am also a dog user. So, 
> any info people have to contribute regarding estimates would be neat. 
> I am also willing to bet that a larger number of NFB and ACB members 
> have guide dogs than general blind individuals outside of these 
> organizations. In the early days I would guess that ACB would have a 
> greater percentage of guide dog users, but these days I would guess 
> that it is probably equal, and I might even go so far as to guess, and 
> I have no data to support this, but I would guess that NFB might 
> actually have a slightly higher percentage of guide dog handlers. 
> Anyway, I don't know how accurate that 2% figure really is for Germany 
> or how it was reached, and also how that compares to the estimate in 
> the United States and how that one was arrived at. Moving on...
>
>
> I got side tracked, but I wanted to ask something else as well. What 
> is the policy regarding guide dog handlers in Germany with dogs 
> trained elsewhere? Let's say someone from Germany is so impressed with 
> the Seeing Eye that they apply to and are accepted there. They train 
> in the US then return home to Germany. Or a handler with a dog from 
> GDB living in the us, moves to Germany because their spouse, in the 
> military is stationed there. Or an individual from the UK moves to 
> Germany. Are the access rights the same for the teams with dogs from 
> other countries? Is there ever any concern regarding ownership where 
> the dog is owned legitimately by the handler, or by a school in the 
> US? For instance, a handler with a dog where GEB technically owns the 
> dog, but the team is working in Germany? How does that work? Have 
> there been any court cases, news articles, disputes, etc that 
> highlight this issue?
>
>
> Obviously I deeply object on a gut level to an insurance provider 
> owning one's Gide dog, even more than to a school retaining ownership. 
> At least GEB or Fidelco would have the knowledge and experience to 
> make more informed decisions more of the time, then some huge 
> bureaucratic agency not specializing in guide dogs.
>
>
> Wow, kind of scary.
>
>
> Lastly I am curious about the prevalence of GSDs in Germany. Labs are 
> great guides, goldens are great guides, and sometimes also boxers, 
> dobermans and poodles, plus the crosses of these breeds, but GSDs were 
> the original. Due primarily to the work of the Seeing Eye, Fidelco, 
> and apparently they are back in the game and turning things around, 
> also, Eye Dog Foundation, GSDs are still a fixture in the US. But, 
> what about where they originated? What breeds are most commonly used 
> in Germany. There has been some serious stigmatization of GSDs in the 
> US, some due to World War II, but a lot generated by the use of GSDs 
> during the civil rights protesting era and the race riots, here in the 
> US. Is there a similar stigma in Germany due to the use of GSDs by the 
> police, in particular the Nazi regime? If so, is it as bad as in the 
> US, or worse? The GSD is an amazing breed and I know that there are 
> still really meaningful shows in Germany that are attended by breeders 
> and exhibitors from all over the world, but I don't know the working 
> status of shepherds in the country of their birth as a breed.
>
>
> Yes, I am a guide dog geek. Yes, I am a german shepherd geek. Freely 
> admitted. *smile*
>
>
>
> On 5/23/2017 2:36 PM, Bianka via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Lisa, I have heard of some instances here in germany that the health 
>> insurance grants ownership to the handler, it depends on which 
>> insurance you deal with. Usually, the insurance doesn't really care 
>> what happens with the dog when he retires. However, it might get 
>> difficult when the dog has to retire early or has to be returned to 
>> the school because of a missmatch or just bad training.
>>
>> It's also a fact that charities providing service dogs in Germany 
>> face great difficulties raising the money. It's mainly a cultural 
>> thing I guess. I guess if the alternative is having a guide dog or 
>> not having a guide dog at all ownership is not the first thing one 
>> thinks about :). In Germany, guide dogs and their handlers are a very 
>> small minority among the blind. The last time I researched the 
>> numbers they talked about 2 to 3 % of the blind but I might have the 
>> number wrong.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Bianka
>>
>>
>>
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