[NAGDU] finding things

Wayne & Harley k9dad at k9di.org
Sat Nov 4 19:20:58 UTC 2017 

*Hi Julie,
They're actually a set of twins and they're nearly identical. "Find the" 
is a subset of "Find". The implementation is the same just using the 
"the". For example.
"Find the seat", or "Find outside".
I guess, it's just a quirk of mine.

Your Mileage May Vary

Wayne And Harley D
*
On 11/4/2017 2:06 PM, Julie Johnson via NAGDU wrote:
> Wayne,
> You list "find" and "find the" as separate commands.  What is the 
> difference?
>
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046> 
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Wayne & Harley via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2017 1:09 PM
> To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
> Cc: Wayne & Harley
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
>
> *Hi Jean,
> All my Leader pups were taught "Find" and "find the" before I was
> matched with them. Customizing the "Find" and "find the" has been quite
> easy.  When I became an Owner Trainer the pups were taught "find" and
> "find the" from the get-go.
>     As for being good "avoiders" they have all been stellar. A funny
> story from when I was on class with LD Sequoia, my very first Leader
> Dog. It was the first day that we were going to be doing obstacles and
> our trainer, Jim Gardener, had explained to me how it was supposed to
> go. Dog works up to said obstacle and stops, I explore with hands/feet
> to try to determine information and based on that information gained
> give the pup a "Hup left", or "Hup right". Well, no one told Sequoia the
> script. We approached the first obstacle and instead of stopping he just
> took us around it. Now having had "FOLLOW YOUR DOG" pounded into my head
> by Guide Dog owning friends since I'd met my first Guide Dog in 1987, I
> did just that and followed my dog.  Jim was cracking up when he caught
> up with us. It appears that Sequoia had decided to skip directly to
> Advanced lever obstacle avoidance on his own.  Nowadays, when it comes
> to obstacles, I use "Find the way" and let Harley use his best
> judgement. He's the one that can see after all. He'll stop for some
> things, others we zip around them.
>
> Your Mileage May Vary
>
> Wayne And Harley D
>
> *On 11/1/2017 12:08 PM, Jean Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> Some of my dogs over the years wouldn't find much of anything. lol. 
>> Some, especially in the early days of my dog experiences, were great 
>> obstacle avoiders, but lousy finders. Perhaps find wasn't taught as a 
>> skill and they never quite understood it, or perhaps I didn't know 
>> how to teach it back then. Who knows. But since then, I have been 
>> through several programs that actively teach find, and I have found 
>> that those dogs get it. They are good at avoidance, but also good at 
>> locating. When they know the difference, it is much easier to teach 
>> new objects for finding. JMO. I think it is also a bit dog dependent. 
>> Some might just be better at that skill.
>>
>> Personally, I do think that if they are taught a specific concept of 
>> actually finding things in training, they are much better at finding, 
>> and then we can build on that. I have also found that my dogs with 
>> higher drive have been better at it than the calmer softer types. But 
>> that is a big generalization, and is just what I have experienced so 
>> far.
>>
>> Jean and Bode
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Dan Weiner via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:55 AM
>> To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
>> Cc: Dan Weiner
>> Subject: [NAGDU] finding things
>>
>> just a point of discussion, I really think these skills finding chairs,
>> elevators, buttons all of those are something my dogs have learned
>>
>>
>>  but to get them to be consistent I've had o really hall butt and
>> practice even if they were exposed to it at guide dog school, what have
>> other people found?
>>
>> Warmest regards,
>>
>> Dan and Parker the chair-finder--smileOn 11/1/2017 12:16 PM, Jean
>> Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Andy, thanks for your detailed response. It really helps in 
>>> comparing how the dogs might work, not taking into account 
>>> personality of course. In 34 years of having guide dogs, I have gone 
>>> through 3 different programs. I change based on what taught skills I 
>>> think will best suit my lifestyle at a given point. All the programs 
>>> have been excellent, and my choice to change is not based on 
>>> anything except examining the skills the dogs are taught and 
>>> thinking about what I need. Thanks for sharing.
>>>
>>> Jean and Bode
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Andy Borka via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:12 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Andy Borka
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>>
>>> Hi Jean,
>>>
>>> I recently graduated from Seeing Eye. In fact, Alec and I came home 
>>> in August of this year. We will attempt to answer your questions as 
>>> much as possible.
>>>
>>> Food rewards used or not used
>>> During training, food rewards are usually forbidden. The dogs are 
>>> taught to drive from your love and praises after each successful 
>>> task. Only when you get home might a trainer recommend food rewards 
>>> along with clicker training. This is done after arriving home 
>>> because your dog will not have any concept of where he/she is at the 
>>> time. After building their confidence with a route, phase out the 
>>> treats, then the clicker
>>> Skill sets –Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are 
>>> the dogs taught to find initially?
>>> They are taught inside/outside and doors. Aside from this, your dog 
>>> is taught to generalize. An example is a table. If you normally sit 
>>> at a table in a lounge, then ask your dog to find a table, he might 
>>> take you to the one you would normally sit at, but he will take you 
>>> to a table. After sitting in a specific spot for a few days, he will 
>>> start taking you directly to that spot. Seeing Eye dogs are heavily 
>>> patterned for your specific needs. Therefore, most of the patterning 
>>> and generalization is done during class. Right now, Alec can find 
>>> inside, outside, the door, home, park, the bus, the wall (at a 
>>> specific street corner), the service desk at Walmart, the checkout 
>>> register at Walgreens, the down ramp at certain street corners 
>>> (offset crossings), things I drop on the ground (my keys on one 
>>> occasion), steps (both up and down), cars I normally ride in, 
>>> specific people he knows fairly well, and return points during a 
>>> route. Most of these he learned during class or after getting home.
>>> Traffic work – exposure to quiet cars
>>> Seeing Eye has a quiet car they use during traning and traffic 
>>> checks. During class, staff members will drive around in different 
>>> types of vehicles. When students attempt to cross the street, they 
>>> will give you and your dog a traffic check. A traffic check is a 
>>> situation where the driver poses a potential danger to you or your 
>>> dog. An example is pulling out directly in front of you during a 
>>> crossing. One of these cars is a quiet car. Often, they request the 
>>> general public give you traffic checks at random. I remember a time 
>>> where we ended up boxed in between four cars during a crossing. The 
>>> unfortunate complexity of this situation is the cars that boxed us 
>>> in were still moving. Alec expertly guided me out of the problem and 
>>> across the street. Traffic is an important topic. Roughly 4 hours of 
>>> lectures are dedicated to handling traffic.
>>>
>>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>>> The application process is not complicated. Go to seeingeye.org, 
>>> click admissions, then apply, then apply online. You create a 
>>> username/password. When you arrive at the application, you have to 
>>> fill out sections related to contact info, vision, general health, 
>>> mobility, references, class date preferences, etc. You have to 
>>> provide three references. The cost for a dog is $150 paid to the 
>>> school whenever you can afford to do so. When the initial 
>>> application is approved, they send you medical forms to have your 
>>> doctor fill out and send back. They will send a trainer out to 
>>> evaluate your current mobility skills. Since you have a dog, I don’t 
>>> know how they would evaluate mobility skills. In the same visit, the 
>>> trainer would give you a juno walk. If everything is good to go, you 
>>> will receive a class date. At that time, they would walk you through 
>>> the legal paperwork and travel arrangements.
>>>
>>> These questions have been answered based on my own experience, and 
>>> what trainers have told me during class.
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>
>>> From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:10 PM
>>> To: NAGDU
>>> Cc: Jean Menzies
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Without going into the details now, I am looking at dog retirement, 
>>> and getting applications started for dog  number 7. Even if I end up 
>>> delaying exceptance, the paperwork will be good for two years, and 
>>> there are reasons to get going on it now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My current dog is from Leader. He is wonderful, and I really like 
>>> the skill sets that LD puts on their dogs. But in deciding if I stay 
>>> or change schools, I want some information on the Seing Eye as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For anyone who has been to either school recently, or for those who 
>>> have been to both, I would like your thoughts on the following points:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Food rewards used or not used
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If food rewards are used, are they phased out or maintained
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Skill sets –
>>>
>>> Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are the dogs 
>>> taught to find initially? E.g., empty chairs/benches, stairs 
>>> up/down, pushbutton poles, doors, inside/outside, etc.?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Traffic work – exposure to quiet cars
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm interested in comparing the skill sets and working styles of the 
>>> dogs, so please, no info on meals, rooms, etc. That's not important 
>>> to me. Any info anyone can provide on current training from the two 
>>> programs would be appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jean
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>>
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