[NAGDU] finding things

Sat Nov 4 22:56:03 UTC 2017

Jean:

You have me smiling with your description of the dog waiting for you to 
figure it out.  My last dog Tara was like that.  I loved her very much and 
worked with her a lot to build up her confidence.  However, when I first got 
her she would stop and look up at me or around for a sighted person to help 
her.  People used to ask who was doing the guiding, me or her.  It took a 
lot of time and patience but I will admit that Tara did become more 
confident as I worked with her.  She did guide until her health made 
retirement necessary when she was eight.  Although I loved and was sad to 
retire Tara, I was thrilled to get the calm, gentle and quiet Eva who has 
enough confidence for three dogs.  I guess the schools have trouble finding 
that perfect balance between the really tough dogs and those that are gentle 
and easy to handle.  However, they should really try to match those who 
prefer a more confident assertive dog with one like that.  I have seen too 
many cases of people having to return their dog because they just cannot get 
used to working with the softer dogs.  I think they somehow have to have a 
full range of temperaments to fit the wide variety of those of us who want a 
guide dog.  Good luck as you go through this difficult decision.  I am 
enjoying this discussion about how our dogs work and the different 
personalities and temperaments.

Sandra and Eva

-----Original Message----- 
From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2017 5:26 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Jean Menzies
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things

Hi Wayne,

Yes, I remember using "find the way" with my number 4 dog who was very
confident and a wonderful problem solver. No, I doubt I'll ever be an
owner-trainer from the ground up, but I like a dog with the confidence and
brains that I can work with. My personal experience has been that the
quieter calmer dogs do the A to B guiding just fine, but they'd rather you
figure out a move when an obstacle comes up. Like if I get messed up in a
bunch of outdoor tables or something, I've had dogs who just shut down and
let me try and work it out, or I end up asking for help because they can't
work it out for me. Then I've had my favorite hard-headed boy who would just
see how to not get muddled up in the first place, but if we did, he loved
the challenge of looking around and working it out. I'd rather have a dog
with that drive and confidence and initiative, and then be able to shape it
and work with it. I'd rather do that than try and build up something that
isn't there or is a stretch for a dog's mental ability or personality. But I
find that going into class, even though I describe what I like in that
regard, trainers often don't believe me or say they just have so few dogs
like that these days.

Jean and Bode

-----Original Message----- 
From: Wayne And Harley D via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 2:01 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Wayne And Harley D
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things

     Hi Jean And Sandra,I can't really speak to less confident dogs not
being as good at "find" as I've been lucky in the last seventeen years as a
GDO to have only had confident dogs. I'll stick to what works for me.Well,
Jean, you could come over to the "Dark Side" and Owner Train. *Grin*True,
find the way is multi-purpose and useful.
Wayne And Harley D
-------- Original message --------From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
<nagdu at nfbnet.org> Date: 11/4/17  15:50  (GMT-06:00) To: "NAGDU Mailing
List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> Cc:
Jean Menzies <jemenzies at shaw.ca> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
Hi Sandra,

I have to agree with you. My best finders have been the more confident ones,
and the gentle quieter ones not so much. The problem as I see it is that it
is getting harder and harder to get a really confident dog, since schools
are going for the quieter softer dogs more and more. I know some will
disagree, but that's how my 6 dogs so far have been.

Jean and Bode

-----Original Message----- 
From: S L Johnson via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 1:42 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: S L Johnson
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things

Wayne:

I love using "find the way".  It covers a lot of situations from obstacles
to crowded areas.  Eva is excellent when I tell her to "find the way".  She
will pause, look around, then move out confidently to get us out of all
kinds of situations.  I think the more confident your dog is the better they
will be with the concept of find.  That is just my opinion drawn from my 42
years of experience working with guide dogs,  some from schools who taught
find and some whom I have taught find myself after graduation.

Sandra and Eva

-----Original Message----- 
From: Wayne & Harley via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2017 2:09 PM
To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
Cc: Wayne & Harley
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things

*Hi Jean,
All my Leader pups were taught "Find" and "find the" before I was
matched with them. Customizing the "Find" and "find the" has been quite
easy.Ã,  When I became an Owner Trainer the pups were taught "find" and
"find the" from the get-go.
Ã, Ã, Ã,  As for being good "avoiders" they have all been stellar. A funny
story from when I was on class with LD Sequoia, my very first Leader
Dog. It was the first day that we were going to be doing obstacles and
our trainer, Jim Gardener, had explained to me how it was supposed to
go. Dog works up to said obstacle and stops, I explore with hands/feet
to try to determine information and based on that information gained
give the pup a "Hup left", or "Hup right". Well, no one told Sequoia the
script. We approached the first obstacle and instead of stopping he just
took us around it. Now having had "FOLLOW YOUR DOG" pounded into my head
by Guide Dog owning friends since I'd met my first Guide Dog in 1987, I
did just that and followed my dog.Ã,  Jim was cracking up when he caught
up with us. It appears that Sequoia had decided to skip directly to
Advanced lever obstacle avoidance on his own.Ã,  Nowadays, when it comes
to obstacles, I use "Find the way" and let Harley use his best
judgement. He's the one that can see after all. He'll stop for some
things, others we zip around them.

Your Mileage May Vary

Wayne And Harley D

*On 11/1/2017 12:08 PM, Jean Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Some of my dogs over the years wouldn't find much of anything. lol. Some,
> especially in the early days of my dog experiences, were great obstacle
> avoiders, but lousy finders. Perhaps find wasn't taught as a skill and
> they never quite understood it, or perhaps I didn't know how to teach it
> back then. Who knows. But since then, I have been through several programs
> that actively teach find, and I have found that those dogs get it. They
> are good at avoidance, but also good at locating. When they know the
> difference, it is much easier to teach new objects for finding. JMO. I
> think it is also a bit dog dependent. Some might just be better at that
> skill.
>
> Personally, I do think that if they are taught a specific concept of
> actually finding things in training, they are much better at finding, and
> then we can build on that. I have also found that my dogs with higher
> drive have been better at it than the calmer softer types. But that is a
> big generalization, and is just what I have experienced so far.
>
> Jean and Bode
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:55 AM
> To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
> Cc: Dan Weiner
> Subject: [NAGDU] finding things
>
> just a point of discussion, I really think these skills finding chairs,
> elevators, buttons all of those are something my dogs have learned
>
>
> Ã, but to get them to be consistent I've had o really hall butt and
> practice even if they were exposed to it at guide dog school, what have
> other people found?
>
> Warmest regards,
>
> Dan and Parker the chair-finder--smileOn 11/1/2017 12:16 PM, Jean
> Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
>> Andy, thanks for your detailed response. It really helps in comparing how
>> the dogs might work, not taking into account personality of course. In 34
>> years of having guide dogs, I have gone through 3 different programs. I
>> change based on what taught skills I think will best suit my lifestyle at
>> a given point. All the programs have been excellent, and my choice to
>> change is not based on anything except examining the skills the dogs are
>> taught and thinking about what I need. Thanks for sharing.
>>
>> Jean and Bode
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Andy Borka via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:12 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Andy Borka
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>
>> Hi Jean,
>>
>> I recently graduated from Seeing Eye. In fact, Alec and I came home in
>> August of this year. We will attempt to answer your questions as much as
>> possible.
>>
>> Food rewards used or not used
>> During training, food rewards are usually forbidden. The dogs are taught
>> to drive from your love and praises after each successful task. Only when
>> you get home might a trainer recommend food rewards along with clicker
>> training. This is done after arriving home because your dog will not have
>> any concept of where he/she is at the time. After building their
>> confidence with a route, phase out the treats, then the clicker
>> Skill sets Ã¢?"Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are
>> the dogs taught to find initially?
>> They are taught inside/outside and doors. Aside from this, your dog is
>> taught to generalize. An example is a table. If you normally sit at a
>> table in a lounge, then ask your dog to find a table, he might take you
>> to the one you would normally sit at, but he will take you to a table.
>> After sitting in a specific spot for a few days, he will start taking you
>> directly to that spot. Seeing Eye dogs are heavily patterned for your
>> specific needs. Therefore, most of the patterning and generalization is
>> done during class. Right now, Alec can find inside, outside, the door,
>> home, park, the bus, the wall (at a specific street corner), the service
>> desk at Walmart, the checkout register at Walgreens, the down ramp at
>> certain street corners (offset crossings), things I drop on the ground
>> (my keys on one occasion), steps (both up and down), cars I normally ride
>> in, specific people he knows fairly well, and return points during a
>> route. Most of these he learned during class or after getting home.
>> Traffic work Ã¢?" exposure to quiet cars
>> Seeing Eye has a quiet car they use during traning and traffic checks.
>> During class, staff members will drive around in different types of
>> vehicles. When students attempt to cross the street, they will give you
>> and your dog a traffic check. A traffic check is a situation where the
>> driver poses a potential danger to you or your dog. An example is pulling
>> out directly in front of you during a crossing. One of these cars is a
>> quiet car. Often, they request the general public give you traffic checks
>> at random. I remember a time where we ended up boxed in between four cars
>> during a crossing. The unfortunate complexity of this situation is the
>> cars that boxed us in were still moving. Alec expertly guided me out of
>> the problem and across the street. Traffic is an important topic. Roughly
>> 4 hours of lectures are dedicated to handling traffic.
>>
>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>> The application process is not complicated. Go to seeingeye.org, click
>> admissions, then apply, then apply online. You create a
>> username/password. When you arrive at the application, you have to fill
>> out sections related to contact info, vision, general health, mobility,
>> references, class date preferences, etc. You have to provide three
>> references. The cost for a dog is $150 paid to the school whenever you
>> can afford to do so. When the initial application is approved, they send
>> you medical forms to have your doctor fill out and send back. They will
>> send a trainer out to evaluate your current mobility skills. Since you
>> have a dog, I donÃ¢?Tt know how they would evaluate mobility skills. In
>> the same visit, the trainer would give you a juno walk. If everything is
>> good to go, you will receive a class date. At that time, they would walk
>> you through the legal paperwork and travel arrangements.
>>
>> These questions have been answered based on my own experience, and what
>> trainers have told me during class.
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:10 PM
>> To: NAGDU
>> Cc: Jean Menzies
>> Subject: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Without going into the details now, I am looking at dog retirement, and
>> getting applications started for dogÃ,  number 7. Even if I end up
>> delaying exceptance, the paperwork will be good for two years, and there
>> are reasons to get going on it now.
>>
>>
>>
>> My current dog is from Leader. He is wonderful, and I really like the
>> skill sets that LD puts on their dogs. But in deciding if I stay or
>> change schools, I want some information on the Seing Eye as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> For anyone who has been to either school recently, or for those who have
>> been to both, I would like your thoughts on the following points:
>>
>>
>>
>> Food rewards used or not used
>>
>>
>>
>> If food rewards are used, are they phased out or maintained
>>
>>
>>
>> Skill sets Ã¢?"
>>
>> Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are the dogs taught
>> to find initially? E.g., empty chairs/benches, stairs up/down, pushbutton
>> poles, doors, inside/outside, etc.?
>>
>>
>>
>> Traffic work Ã¢?" exposure to quiet cars
>>
>>
>>
>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm interested in comparing the skill sets and working styles of the
>> dogs, so please, no info on meals, rooms, etc. That's not important to
>> me. Any info anyone can provide on current training from the two programs
>> would be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean
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>
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