[NAGDU] Puppies Behind Bars - New Yorker

Mon Nov 27 23:56:27 UTC 2017

My comment about it been being inappropriate for a guy dog to be raised in prison had nothing to do with the prisoners but everything to do with the socializing environment that a puppy is supposed to be exposed to during the  Time with a foster. They are supposed to be exposed to the normal environment of living in a public setting and a present does not offer that setting.

JODY

thunderwalker321 at gmail.com 

"What's within you is stronger than what's in your way."  NO BARRIERS  Erik Weihenmayer

> On Nov 27, 2017, at 4:30 PM, Miranda B. via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Cindy,
> I refrained from posting until now, because I was concerned that this would be considered an off-topic discussion. First, I want to say that I am sorry that your family is experiencing the criminal justice system in this way. As a social work student, I appreciate your perspective. As someone who too has had family members involved in the criminal justice system, I can empathize with any discrimination received by society related to a family member's status as an inmate. I have also been trained to volunteer with inmates preparing to reintegrate into society, and I believe they should be given as much of a chance at life as we who are discriminated against by society due to our disabilities.
> Like you, I find the topic of service dogs being raised by prisoners to be fascinating. While I had known of programs through which books were transcribed, I was unaware of the puppy program until this discussion.
> Thanks for allowing this discussion and sharing your thoughts, and I hope everyone has a wonderful week!
> 
> Best wishes, Miranda
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 3:40 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Puppies Behind Bars - New Yorker
> 
> I am fascinated and, yes, a little angry by this discussion. First of all, some of you are just itching for me to come down on you about the topic. Well, I would like to, but it is emotional for me and so I won't do it. It is an appropriate topic, and it is so educational. It seems we are all hypocritical if we don't want to be stereotyped and yet we stereotype and judge. If you have committed a crime, then you are forever pegged as someone who has no right to be a part of society. Yet if you have no place in society and are dismissed from a correctional facility, what's to say you won't make mistakes again. If you are a blind guy who has a bent for the sciences, there is no way you could ever participate in them because you are blind. This is the same sort of thing.
> My stepson and daughter-in-law are in jail for a possible crime, and it is interesting to see how quickly we are not innocent, and that's before the trial. Media is out there doing what you all are doing--condemning and villafying these folks. They are people missing love, contact, and the regular things in society we take for granted. If we want anyone to come out of a correctional facility with a sense of love, discipline, compassion, and pride, what better way is there than to have her train your dog? You have been told over and over that these are model prisoners who have worked hard to get to a place where they could be a success in this program, yet you don't want them alone with these innocent, loving dogs. You have been told over and over that they are exposed to regular places on weekends. Prisons are big places with much industry going on, and there many learn their future life's careers. And let's suppose your dog was raised by a murderer or petifile? What earthly difference does that make to your dog? Maybe I'm missing something here. What if that person has been a long term model prisoner. Doesn't he have the right to start over? There are monsters in prisons to be sure. There are also monsters out on the streets. Let me ask you this: would you refuse to use a braille book that had been transcribed by someone in prison who had murdered someone? I understand that at first glance this all could be scary, but dogs, unlike us, love unconditionally. If they could talk, they would probably tell you that that time with the prisoner was one of the best times of its life so far. Dogs want to be loved and fed, and if they get that, this is all that matters to them. I know I won't change minds here, but really listen to yourselves and consider if these stereotypes are any less offensive than those leveled at you.
> 
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Melissa R Green via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 11:07 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Melissa R Green <graduate56 at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Puppies Behind Bars - New Yorker
> 
> everyone deserves a second chance.  Some people choose not to take it. 
> These prisoners are taking it and doing something good.  Like the ones who are reading and recording,  and brailing books.
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> Melissa R. Green And Pj
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Hingson via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:00 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Michael Hingson
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Puppies Behind Bars - New Yorker
> 
> This past October while speaking in Iowa I was invited to spend time with the Puppies Behind Bars at the prison in Fort Dodge. I spoke to over 50 prisoners and had close interactions with several of them. I found them to be quite in tune with the purposes of the puppies programs and, in fact, with most things we talked about. I came away seeing that the people with whom I spoke may have made mistakes, but that they have been paying for them and truly wish to be contributors to society. Some of the prisoners would never be paroled, and some will. They all were as focused, calm, and appropriate as anyone else involved with raising puppies.
> 
> I agree with Jenine. Let's not get trapped by stereotypes.
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 8:34 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jenine Stanley <jeninems at icloud.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Puppies Behind Bars - New Yorker
> 
> I find it interesting that people who do not want others stereotyping or ascribing values, etc. to them would reject a dog raised in a prison environment based on stereotypes of prisoners.
> 
> I can’t speak for all prison programs, and they all are not alike, having varying levels of support from the parent schools, but at GDF/AVD, the program has very strict enrollment requirements. Prisoners must have a certain status, i.e., having no disciplinary issues, etc., for a prescribed time. Certain types of crimes, pedifelia, animal abuse, etc., are prohibited. Many of the people who have gone into the puppy programs have committed crimes, yes, and not always white-collar type crimes, but they *must* have a clean record in prison in order to participate.
> 
> What prisoners provide is constant attention to the puppy. They have more time to devote to honing skills and obedience. In the case of service dogs, they channel that time into teaching the rudimentary service dog tasks, like retrieve.
> 
> when you think about exposure, what do you think of? Stores, malls, etc.? 
> Most programs, and all of the guide dog ones I know of, have weekend raiser programs to take the puppy to such places, give it freedom in a home setting and expose it to other pets. Prisons are small cities unto themselves though. There are cafeterias, offices, heavy industry areas where the puppy can be exposed to sounds of trucks, etc.
> 
> When I talked with prisoners at both Bedford Hills and Fishkill prisons in the ’90’s, I was struck by how for many of them, the puppy was the first unconditional love they’d experienced. The prisoners I’ve personally talked with and those in our current program would probably do serious harm to anyone  who harmed their puppies. They are fiercely committed to making the pup successful and very proud when they are able to talk, via Skype, with the handler. that’s not a requirement if you’re not comfortable but it’s an option.
>> On Nov 27, 2017, at 10:25 AM, Tara Briggs via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> So what should happen to people in prison system? I ask this because 
>> the majority of them will be released into society. Here’s a 
>> hypothetical situation but I’m curious what you always think of it. 
>> Will call him George, and he is in prison. George is in prison because 
>> he started using marijuana. He started using marijuana at a young age. 
>> He had chronic pain from say a farming accident. In order to support 
>> his chronic pain, George became a drug dealer. He sold marijuana to 
>> other people. Some used recreationally and others use it for chronic 
>> pain or epilepsy. Eventually George’s crimes caught up with him and he 
>> is now in prison. Well in prison George becomes a puppy raiser. 
>> Eventually George is released. FaceTime in prison has given him a deep 
>> love of dogs and a deep love of what they can do for people. George is now out of prison.
>> He has discovered in himself a lot of animals in love teaching. He is 
>> working to rebuild his life and his goal is to be an instructor for 
>> one of the guide dog schools. Should George be able to accomplish the 
>> stream? I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts on my hypothetical 
>> situation. But I would respectfully point out this is actually based 
>> on the true situation of a gentleman who is a paraplegic in prison.
>> 
>> Michael  Pelletier. You can Google him if you want to hear his full 
>> story. On the other hand I do see what you mean. There are certain 
>> people that I would not want training my dog. I wouldn’t want someone 
>> who was in prison for abusing animals training my dog. I wouldn’t want 
>> someone who was in prison for rape or pedophilia training my dog. 
>> Anyway I look forward to this further discussion.
>> Tara
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Nov 27, 2017, at 8:04 AM, S L Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org 
>>> <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Sherry:
>>> 
>>> I agree with you.  When I was asked by a school if I would accept a 
>>> dog raised in a prison I told the trainer absolutely no!  If it was 
>>> the best guide dog that ever was, I would not accept a prison raised 
>>> dog.  I cannot imagine my sweet golden girl raised by a criminal,  
>>> what an awful thought.
>>> Just the thought of these innocent puppies raised by a criminal is 
>>> disgusting and unacceptable to me.  The thinking these days is to 
>>> rehab prisoners but to me all it is a way for them to get free 
>>> educations, time off for completing their education and raising 
>>> puppies is a privilege.  If they had not committed a crime they could 
>>> go to school or get any job including working with dogs.  However, I 
>>> think the guide and service dog schools should not allow these 
>>> precious puppies near this criminals.  They need to place the puppies 
>>> in safe loving homes not in a prison!  I cannot believe that the 
>>> schools find themselves so desperate that they resort to allowing 
>>> criminals near these puppies.  Shame on you guide and service dog 
>>> schools! Please,  please think of the safety of your puppies!  I know 
>>> both of us will get angry messages from the monitor of the list as 
>>> well as other list members but this is a free country with freedom of 
>>> speech so you and I are entitled to our opinion on this subject.
>>> 
>>> Sandra Johnson and precious golden Eva SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Sherry Gomes via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 10:11 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Sherry Gomes
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Puppies Behind Bars - New Yorker
>>> 
>>> I took one of my dogs to prison with my church choir a long long time 
>>> ago.
>>> We went to a minimum security prison. The guys were very happy to see 
>>> my dog. Another time, I went with my cousin to see her ex-husband, 
>>> who was in San Quentin for drug charges. We met in a big room with 
>>> lots of prisoners and their guests, and one woman asked if her 
>>> husband could say hi to my dog.
>>> He was a lifer and had already been there 15 years so hadn't seen a 
>>> dog in a very long time. He cried and cried when he petted my dog.
>>> Having said all that, I would not want a dog raised in prison. I knew 
>>> a woman who had one, and the dog was fabulous. But years ago, I read 
>>> the book small Miracles by ann Rule. Near the end, she mentioned that 
>>> on one of her visits to Diane Downs for interviews, Downs was raising 
>>> a puppy to be a service dog. Downs never showed any remorse about 
>>> murdering one of her children and trying to murder all three. So I 
>>> felt she had no right to the privilege of raising a dog. If GDB ever 
>>> started having their dogs raised in prison, I'd tell them I 
>>> definitely do not want one of those dogs. It might be a dumb 
>>> attitude, but the idea that people like Diane Downs, or anyone like 
>>> her,  could raise a dog I might get is terrible to me.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sherry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray 
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:45 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Puppies Behind Bars - New Yorker
>>> 
>>> One of the prisons here in Iowa used to work with dogs as did the 
>>> women's prison, but I can't remember if they were training them for a 
>>> program. I t got too crowded for them to have a good facility. When I 
>>> went to the women's prison once to participate in the church service 
>>> there, several looked longingly at Fisher and said, "awe", but they 
>>> had been instructed not to mess with him. I was sort of sorry they 
>>> had been.
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shari Cook 
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 5:41 PM
>>> To: David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Shari Cook <kalilee at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Puppies Behind Bars - New Yorker
>>> 
>>> America's VetDogs (a sister organization to the Guide Dog Foundation 
>>> for the Blind in Smithtown, NY) has puppy raisers in prison - they 
>>> are imprisoned veterans that raise pups specifically for other 
>>> veterans to provide them with enhanced mobility and renewed 
>>> independence.  As with GDF, there is no cost to get a pup.  The dogs 
>>> spend their weekdays being trained by honor prisoners and go to a 
>>> family on weekends for social exposure.  The pups typically stay at 
>>> the prison for 12 to 18 months, then go off to "puppy college" for 
>>> their specific formal training which lasts approximately 4 months.  I 
>>> raise puppies for GDF and we often cross train with the VetDogs 
>>> program.  It's amazing to see what these animals can do, from finding 
>>> the button to open a handicapped entrance, to pushing an elevator 
>>> button, or opening and closing doors, pulling laundry baskets, waking 
>>> a veteran that's having flashbacks, to just being a general companion 
>>> and getting the veteran to be comfortable in the public again.  If 
>>> anyone needs more information on the VetDogs program, their website 
>>> is America's VetDogs | Home
>>> 
>>> |
>>> |
>>> |  |
>>> America's VetDogs | Home
>>> 
>>> 
>>> |
>>> 
>>> |
>>> 
>>> |
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  On Sunday, November 26, 2017, 5:14:49 PM EST, David via NAGDU 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Cross-posted
>>> 
>>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/11/27/puppies-behind-bars-wit
>>> h-glenn
>>> -close
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL*
>>> *david at bakerinet.com*
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
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