[NAGDU] re post on air b and b

NAGDU President blind411 at verizon.net
Tue Sep 19 12:48:32 UTC 2017


Buddy,

	Neither am I an attorney; however, I believe that, since this is a short-term rental and not housing, it would fall under the ADA and the terms I previously shared of not more than five rooms and the proprietor does not live on the premises. It seems to me that short-term would mean less than 30 days.

Fraternally yours,
Marion


Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG


The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.


-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 3:01 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Buddy Brannan
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] re post on air b and b

I'm no lawyer, but I believe that Fair Housing rules might apply here, not ADA, and in that case, Mike's (and my) interpretation would stand. That is to say, no access requirement apply if the owner lives on premises and has fewer than fie units/rooms to let. 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
Phone: (814) 860-3194
Email: buddy at brannan.name
"We are all just walking each other home." 



> On Sep 18, 2017, at 10:39 PM, Alysha via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Michael,
> From my research and also from what I was told when I called the ADA hotline, I don't think this interpretation is correct. The ADA states:
> 
> Place of public accommodation means a facility operated by a private entity whose operations affect commerce and fall within at least one of the following categories—
> (i) An inn, hotel, or motel; or
> (ii) A facility that—
> (A) Provides guest rooms for sleeping for stays that primarily are short-term in nature (generally 30 days or less) where the occupant does not have the right to return to a specific room or unit after the conclusion of his or her stay; and
> (B) Provides guest rooms under conditions and with amenities similar to a hotel, motel, or inn, including the following—
> (1) On- or off-site management and reservations service;
> (2) Rooms available on a walk-up or call-in basis;
> (3) Availability of housekeeping or linen service; and
> (4) Acceptance of reservations for a guest room type without guaranteeing a particular unit or room until check-in, and without a prior lease or security deposit.
> 
> Air B&B or VRBO owners can argue that they do not meet all the requirements that make their rentals similar to a hotel, specifically numbers 2 and 4. This was the argument I was given by a real estate company renting out vacation homes that wanted to deny me access with my dog this summer. Tim Elder, the attorney that has worked with the NFB on Uber complaints, also told me that the ADA doesn't provide comprehensive protections for guide dog users in these situations. The person on the ADA hotline gave me the same info. With the increasing popularity of Air B&B, maybe this is an issue NAGDU could consider tackling/clarifying.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alysha
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 5:15 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Michael Hingson <mike at michaelhingson.com>; 'Buddy Brannan' <buddy at brannan.name>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] re post on air b and b
> 
> Correct. It depends on whether or not one rents the entire house. 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 1:55 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] re post on air b and b
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> As to your first point, it is not always true that AirBNB hosts don't live on premises. In fact, it's just as common for them to rent a room in their private homes, so you're sort of like a paying house guest. In those cases, I believe the "fewer than 5 units" rule applies. But yes, if someone just has a house for rent and they're not on site, my understanding agrees with your understanding. 
> 
> 
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
> Phone: (814) 860-3194
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
> "We are all just walking each other home." 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 18, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Gabriel,
>> 
>> Let me try to help. First, the houses, as you suggested, are open to the public when on the Air B&B site. As President Gwizdala pointed out since the owner is not living in a room when the homes are rented out guide dog users cannot be denied their right to be accompanied by their guide dogs.
>> 
>> Second, we are not required to carry identification cards and most of us oppose the concept. The problem with advance notice and such things is that people make up all sorts of rules and also often throw up barriers they are not permitted to impose under the law. The Americans With Disabilities Act is clear that any proprietor may ask two questions to determine if a person has the right to bring their guide dog into an establishment. First they may ask if the animal is a trained service animal and then they may ask what service the dog is trained to perform. Likewise, even in the case of a service dog if the animal misbehaves the handler can be asked to leave or to remove the dog from the premises.
>> 
>> We have found that requiring one to carry an id card is not helpful. There is no embarrassment to us should we find ourselves in a position to insist on our rights. We find it a time to educate. Carrying cards and having a requirement to carry them is a step backward. We believe that we should have the same rights to travel, work and live like anyone else. A requirement to carry and display a special card is counter to what most people are required to do. It gets back to the fact that to most sighted people we are different and not "normal". It is time to raise expectations about blindness and to stop insisting that we live by a different standard.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gabriel Moloney via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 12:27 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Gabriel Moloney <gmoloney6467 at googlemail.com>
>> Subject: [NAGDU] re post on air b and b
>> 
>> Good day all
>> I have been following this thread, over the last day or two, i have found it slightly strange, in the following ways:
>> 1: I thought that all homes, on the air b and b website and network  were private homes that offer alternatives to costly hotels, motels etc,.  So my curiosity has gotten the better of me now, in the following way, if they are private homes does this not give the owners certain rights, that is they can refuse anybody accommodation or  entery to their house, or since they are letting their homes, rooms etc to the public does federal and state law differ on this matter?  In other words are they now public property while being rented out? or are they still private homes? This is where my curiosity has kicked in The second question that I have for this list, is the following and some people might not agree with this second part of the post, but just give me a moment to explain after the question.  This question had to do with whole idea of ID Cards and disclosure when booking places or transport.  I know, that this type of question, can get the blood boiling, and others might agree with the whole idea of carrying a ID Card, I can only talk about the regulations and law in the Republic of Ireland, now when you qualify with your guide dog from the one school you are required to carry your ID Card that is issued to you at all times, their reasoning for this is to “save embarrassing moments for you as a guide dog owner, for the staff and for members of the public”.  On the cards that are issued there is a photograph of you and the law is printed on the reverse side the law is printed on it stating your rights under equality law.
>> 
>> This ID Card does not apply to me, as my current guide is not from that school, so I do not have their ID Card, I do have and carry the ID Card that I received from Pilot dogs, but that means very little in Ireland, I have only being asked to show it once and that was on a public transport bus, that was dealt with very speedy by myself and the bus company, it is very rare now, that you would be asked for ID Cards in Ireland, but if your dog is from the guide dog school again they state to you that you have to carry it with you at all times, finally the whole idea of disclosing when booking transport or hotels etc the school again tell you that you have to inform them that you have a guide dog again see the quote above, yes I would have been guilty in the past of doing this on a couple of occasions but with my guide now, no i do not, and I have seen the benefit of not disclosing, so my mind et was changed over the last year and that was due to talking to somebody on this whole issue, and I am very thankful to that person.
>> Many thanks for allowing me to put my thoughts out here in regards to the air b and b question and ID card part of this email gabriel _______________________________________________
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> 
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