[NAGDU] NAGDU Digest, Vol 154, Issue 19
John Bauer
knotblind at gmail.com
Tue Jan 23 12:45:01 UTC 2018
Greatings all,
i thought you might like to see what the seeing eye
reaction to delta is.
enjoy
J&K
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 7:00 AM, <nagdu-request at nfbnet.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Using positive reinforcement instead of punishment (Yiska)
> 2. Re: Delta to Require Advance Documentation for Service,
> Support Animals to Fly - WSJ (roanna bacchus)
> 3. Re: Using positive reinforcement instead of punishment
> (Tracy Carcione)
> 4. Re: Fwd: Delta (David)
> 5. Re: Using positive reinforcement instead of punishment (David)
> 6. Re: Using positive reinforcement instead of punishment
> (Julie Johnson)
> 7. GDF (Yiska)
> 8. Re: GDF (Danielle Sykora)
> 9. Re: Fwd: Delta (Michael Forzano)
> 10. Re: Fwd: Delta (David)
> 11. Re: Fwd: Delta (Marianne Denning)
> 12. Re: Fwd: Delta (Jordan Gallacher)
> 13. Re: Fwd: Delta (Tracy Carcione)
> 14. Re: Fwd: Delta (David)
> 15. Re: Fwd: Delta (David)
> 16. Re: Fwd: Delta (Michael Hingson)
> 17. Re: Fwd: Delta (Michael Forzano)
> 18. Re: Using positive reinforcement instead of punishment (d m gina)
> 19. Re: GDF (NAGDU President)
> 20. Re: Fwd: Delta (Jordan Gallacher)
> 21. Re: GDF (Bryan Gearry)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 06:01:08 -0700
> From: Yiska <ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Using positive reinforcement instead of
> punishment
> Message-ID:
> <CALaWVTGMUMsyY91oR+T0iq+WoBnWk+iROaAjPLsyf7NK=5GnnQ@
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> This is such a good conversation with good ideas.
>
> On Jan 21, 2018 15:07, "Dan Weiner via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> very interesting, I honestly have never found that, right out of the box so
> to speak, the dogs do well with overheads, it takes a lot of reinforcement
> and consistency, even then I'm not convinced that dogs are able to look up
> when they're looking forward, right and left--smile. I'm tall enough, six
> four, 193 cm, and even if my dog does it well, sooner or later something
> will happen--smile. All of my dogs did great at it in familiar
> environments where they were expecting overheads that they were used to,
> but in unfamiliar areas it could be a problem. Yes, tapping or showing the
> dog the object, maybe shaking it a bit if you won't hurt yourself is
> fine. But I just warn you, in my opinion, sooner or later you will hit
> something from overhead.
>
> On the thee hand, I can tell you a story--smile. you were afraid of that,
> weren't you.
>
> When I was taking a summer course at Middle bury college I stayed in the
> dorm and there was a staircase which would be partially in the way of my
> face--smile. when I walked with Evan, dog at the time he always took me
> around it. but one day there was going to be a loud party with dancing and
> I left Evan to sleep in my room and sallied forth with the cane....well not
> knowing that that particular staircase would indeed cause resistance to my
> head if passed--smile I banged right in to it...Evan had always taken me
> around it...that definitely woke me up. The moral of the story is, I bet
> for every misjudgement our dogs make even with overheads that there are
> plenty of things they are keeping ous safe from.
>
>
> Dan the man with Parker the hound
>
>
>
>
> On 1/21/2018 2:49 PM, Bianka via NAGDU wrote:
>
> > Hi Jiska and all,
> >
> > My current school does not usually teach to rework a situation like this
> > but I know it from my previous school and have used it with all my dogs.
> > Personally, I found that leash corrections are not the right way to
> handle
> > these kinds of situations. I feel asking the dog to stop, turn around and
> > rework the situation is disrupting the flow in such a way that usually
> the
> > dog will be motivated to do it right next time. Now, if I see the same
> > mistake a second time I usually drop the harness handle and show my dog
> the
> > overhead obstacle or the curb he/she missed if it?s safe, that will
> usually
> > do the trick. Even with my black lab who was sometimes hard to motivate a
> > leash correction would only shut her down in those situations.
> >
> > As for the clicker, I have conditioned a praise word and I do use treats
> > if I know it will help my dog stay on track. I find the clicker very
> > helpful in training really specific behaviors but you have to be very
> > careful as to the timing of the click. On route I use a conditioned
> marker
> > word and treats. As for a no reward marker, I think it?s a question of
> > attitude. Dogs are very good pattern matchers. So you could either use a
> > non-reward marker or just use a command to tell the dog what he/she
> should
> > do. In fact, my school teaches a non-reward marker or verbal correction
> has
> > always to be followed by the thing we want our dog to do in that
> particular
> > moment.
> >
> > Just my two cents, hth,
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Bianka
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
> dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:23:40 -0500
> From: roanna bacchus <rbacchus228 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Delta to Require Advance Documentation for
> Service, Support Animals to Fly - WSJ
> Message-ID: <5a65f3f7.02ae630a.3d1bf.17a4 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi Gary thanks for your message. I heard about this on the news
> today. Delta is requiring passengers with emmotional support
> dogs to provide documentation about their training before
> passengers board one of their flights. I did not hear anything
> regarding guide dogs.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:26:15 -0500
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Using positive reinforcement instead of
> punishment
> Message-ID: <9b3001f967d0837a9e368e9a74086da3.squirrel at mail.panix.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> My last dog from GDB was very good at overheads, because they really
> worked on it. They had an obstacle course set up in the garden, with
> overhead bars that fell down with a clang if one bumped into them, so we
> could actually practice.
> That was 20 years ago now. Does GDB still really work at avoiding
> overheads, or does any other school? I know they can be tricky, as dogs
> don't really look up very high.
> Tracy
>
> > This is such a good conversation with good ideas.
> >
> > On Jan 21, 2018 15:07, "Dan Weiner via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >
> > very interesting, I honestly have never found that, right out of the box
> > so
> > to speak, the dogs do well with overheads, it takes a lot of
> reinforcement
> > and consistency, even then I'm not convinced that dogs are able to look
> up
> > when they're looking forward, right and left--smile. I'm tall enough, six
> > four, 193 cm, and even if my dog does it well, sooner or later something
> > will happen--smile. All of my dogs did great at it in familiar
> > environments where they were expecting overheads that they were used to,
> > but in unfamiliar areas it could be a problem. Yes, tapping or showing
> > the
> > dog the object, maybe shaking it a bit if you won't hurt yourself is
> > fine. But I just warn you, in my opinion, sooner or later you will hit
> > something from overhead.
> >
> > On the thee hand, I can tell you a story--smile. you were afraid of that,
> > weren't you.
> >
> > When I was taking a summer course at Middle bury college I stayed in the
> > dorm and there was a staircase which would be partially in the way of my
> > face--smile. when I walked with Evan, dog at the time he always took me
> > around it. but one day there was going to be a loud party with dancing
> > and
> > I left Evan to sleep in my room and sallied forth with the cane....well
> > not
> > knowing that that particular staircase would indeed cause resistance to
> my
> > head if passed--smile I banged right in to it...Evan had always taken me
> > around it...that definitely woke me up. The moral of the story is, I bet
> > for every misjudgement our dogs make even with overheads that there are
> > plenty of things they are keeping ous safe from.
> >
> >
> > Dan the man with Parker the hound
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/21/2018 2:49 PM, Bianka via NAGDU wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Jiska and all,
> >>
> >> My current school does not usually teach to rework a situation like this
> >> but I know it from my previous school and have used it with all my dogs.
> >> Personally, I found that leash corrections are not the right way to
> >> handle
> >> these kinds of situations. I feel asking the dog to stop, turn around
> >> and
> >> rework the situation is disrupting the flow in such a way that usually
> >> the
> >> dog will be motivated to do it right next time. Now, if I see the same
> >> mistake a second time I usually drop the harness handle and show my dog
> >> the
> >> overhead obstacle or the curb he/she missed if it???s safe, that will
> >> usually
> >> do the trick. Even with my black lab who was sometimes hard to motivate
> >> a
> >> leash correction would only shut her down in those situations.
> >>
> >> As for the clicker, I have conditioned a praise word and I do use treats
> >> if I know it will help my dog stay on track. I find the clicker very
> >> helpful in training really specific behaviors but you have to be very
> >> careful as to the timing of the click. On route I use a conditioned
> >> marker
> >> word and treats. As for a no reward marker, I think it???s a question of
> >> attitude. Dogs are very good pattern matchers. So you could either use a
> >> non-reward marker or just use a command to tell the dog what he/she
> >> should
> >> do. In fact, my school teaches a non-reward marker or verbal correction
> >> has
> >> always to be followed by the thing we want our dog to do in that
> >> particular
> >> moment.
> >>
> >> Just my two cents, hth,
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >> Bianka
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
> dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ichoosech
> > rist2%40gmail.com
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:39:40 -0500
> From: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID: <f9e4cda7-42d1-0207-0ed5-ebb33e723792 at bakerinet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> The only problem I have ever had with Delta is that their main hub is
> Atlanta and TSA staff in Atlanta are poorly trained.? I'm not
> complaining about TSA, though, because they are light years better than
> the private company security goons we had at airports across the country
> before the government took over.? TSA personnel may not all be great,
> but at least most of them are professional and courteous - some are even
> friendly.
>
> I don't want to sound like a shill for Delta, but I have traveled on a
> lot of airlines for hundreds of thousands of miles.? While I have never
> had a bad experience traveling with Claire on any airline, except for
> delays and mechanical repairs, Delta has given me outstanding service on
> every booking and every flight.
>
> *David in Clearwater, FL*
> *david at bakerinet.com
>
> *
> On 1/21/2018 11:59 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
> > I have to agree with Cindy. Delta has been more trouble when I fly with
> them, and I have quit wasting my time complaining about the poor treatment
> I get from them because it has not done a bit of good. American and
> Southwest I have never had a problem with.
> > Jordan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:45:43 -0500
> From: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Using positive reinforcement instead of
> punishment
> Message-ID: <ca490246-e34b-02a3-ecab-52e5a74f5a4b at bakerinet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> GDF trains for overheads - a bar at head level.? Claire was perfect with
> that, but I have had to do a lot reinforcement to get her to stop, or
> guide around, overhead branches.? She's getting better, but she
> remembers the places even when the branches or leaves have already been
> cut.
>
> *David in Clearwater, FL*
> *david at bakerinet.com*
> On 1/22/2018 9:26 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
> > My last dog from GDB was very good at overheads, because they really
> > worked on it. They had an obstacle course set up in the garden, with
> > overhead bars that fell down with a clang if one bumped into them, so we
> > could actually practice.
> > That was 20 years ago now. Does GDB still really work at avoiding
> > overheads, or does any other school? I know they can be tricky, as dogs
> > don't really look up very high.
> > Tracy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:04:31 -0600
> From: "Julie Johnson" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Using positive reinforcement instead of
> punishment
> Message-ID: <E091DD7E363D4BCFB5C00A183A0FF384 at JuliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
> reply-type=original
>
> It's funny, my first dog, a Treeing Walker Coonhound, was amazing with
> overhead obstacles. She was just adequate with all of her other guiding
> and
> I never trained her to do any advanced work, like find, follow or named
> specific things. I think her talent with overheads was because of her
> breed. They are supposed to run raccoons into trees, then hold them there
> with constant baying. So the innate ability to look up was hard wired.
>
> Most of the typical breeds, labs, goldens, GSD's, were all bred to do work
> on the ground. Overall I think this is better. There's a lot more going
> on
> at ground level that I'd like to go around. Also the personality of these
> breeds lends them to working with people more closely. The hounds are a
> much more independent lot. they like people well enough, but they don't
> *need* people quite so much as the sporting breeds.
>
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?
> storeid=1916046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 8:26 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Tracy Carcione
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Using positive reinforcement instead of punishment
>
> My last dog from GDB was very good at overheads, because they really
> worked on it. They had an obstacle course set up in the garden, with
> overhead bars that fell down with a clang if one bumped into them, so we
> could actually practice.
> That was 20 years ago now. Does GDB still really work at avoiding
> overheads, or does any other school? I know they can be tricky, as dogs
> don't really look up very high.
> Tracy
>
> > This is such a good conversation with good ideas.
> >
> > On Jan 21, 2018 15:07, "Dan Weiner via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >
> > very interesting, I honestly have never found that, right out of the box
> > so
> > to speak, the dogs do well with overheads, it takes a lot of
> reinforcement
> > and consistency, even then I'm not convinced that dogs are able to look
> up
> > when they're looking forward, right and left--smile. I'm tall enough, six
> > four, 193 cm, and even if my dog does it well, sooner or later something
> > will happen--smile. All of my dogs did great at it in familiar
> > environments where they were expecting overheads that they were used to,
> > but in unfamiliar areas it could be a problem. Yes, tapping or showing
> > the
> > dog the object, maybe shaking it a bit if you won't hurt yourself is
> > fine. But I just warn you, in my opinion, sooner or later you will hit
> > something from overhead.
> >
> > On the thee hand, I can tell you a story--smile. you were afraid of that,
> > weren't you.
> >
> > When I was taking a summer course at Middle bury college I stayed in the
> > dorm and there was a staircase which would be partially in the way of my
> > face--smile. when I walked with Evan, dog at the time he always took me
> > around it. but one day there was going to be a loud party with dancing
> > and
> > I left Evan to sleep in my room and sallied forth with the cane....well
> > not
> > knowing that that particular staircase would indeed cause resistance to
> my
> > head if passed--smile I banged right in to it...Evan had always taken me
> > around it...that definitely woke me up. The moral of the story is, I bet
> > for every misjudgement our dogs make even with overheads that there are
> > plenty of things they are keeping ous safe from.
> >
> >
> > Dan the man with Parker the hound
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/21/2018 2:49 PM, Bianka via NAGDU wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Jiska and all,
> >>
> >> My current school does not usually teach to rework a situation like this
> >> but I know it from my previous school and have used it with all my dogs.
> >> Personally, I found that leash corrections are not the right way to
> >> handle
> >> these kinds of situations. I feel asking the dog to stop, turn around
> >> and
> >> rework the situation is disrupting the flow in such a way that usually
> >> the
> >> dog will be motivated to do it right next time. Now, if I see the same
> >> mistake a second time I usually drop the harness handle and show my dog
> >> the
> >> overhead obstacle or the curb he/she missed if it???s safe, that will
> >> usually
> >> do the trick. Even with my black lab who was sometimes hard to motivate
> >> a
> >> leash correction would only shut her down in those situations.
> >>
> >> As for the clicker, I have conditioned a praise word and I do use treats
> >> if I know it will help my dog stay on track. I find the clicker very
> >> helpful in training really specific behaviors but you have to be very
> >> careful as to the timing of the click. On route I use a conditioned
> >> marker
> >> word and treats. As for a no reward marker, I think it???s a question of
> >> attitude. Dogs are very good pattern matchers. So you could either use a
> >> non-reward marker or just use a command to tell the dog what he/she
> >> should
> >> do. In fact, my school teaches a non-reward marker or verbal correction
> >> has
> >> always to be followed by the thing we want our dog to do in that
> >> particular
> >> moment.
> >>
> >> Just my two cents, hth,
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >> Bianka
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
> dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ichoosech
> > rist2%40gmail.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
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>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 08:44:30 -0700
> From: Yiska <ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] GDF
> Message-ID:
> <CALaWVTGhB7QyxNdRSTypZZZU+Le4Yg0gBG1UqBaTh8Y0QUYnOQ@
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hello
> I had questions about GDF's training methods. Do they use any negative
> reinforcement? Do they use only positive without leash corrections? I want
> something positive based not fear based. Thanks for your time.
> Yiska
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:09:52 -0500
> From: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDF
> Message-ID: <DA892900-FE25-4C51-8317-A99E15FBA27F at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> GDF's training methods are based on positive reinforcement and negative
> punishment. Dogs are rewarded for behaving correctly, and most often
> ignored or redirected when behaving inappropriately. Food rewards are used
> a lot at first, but gradually reduced or phased out almost entirely over
> the first six months or so home with the dog. Clicker training is also used
> frequently during training, and taught to students.Leash corrections are
> used sometimes, though less often than a lot of other programs. Though I am
> a major proponent of using force free methods whenever possible,
> realistically not many dogs can work without any leash correction at any
> time. If you know anything about GDB's training methods, GDF is fairly
> similar. Those are probably the two programs that use the most positive
> training methods at this time.
> I received my dog before food rewards were really incorporated much, and
> even then leash corrections were used less than at some other programs.
>
> Danielle and Thai
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 22, 2018, at 10:44 AM, Yiska via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello
> > I had questions about GDF's training methods. Do they use any negative
> > reinforcement? Do they use only positive without leash corrections? I
> want
> > something positive based not fear based. Thanks for your time.
> > Yiska
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 08:43:32 -0800
> From: Michael Forzano <michaeldforzano at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID:
> <CAKRnMMU7FV1XL_1ocDRBjQXm9hcU+q3AMQF9pXGQpJ04nb2jRA at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> According to Delta's site, the policy does apply to trained service
> animals: https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/
> special-travel-needs/service-animals.html
>
> As I said on another thread, aside from the obvious issues with this
> policy, many guide dog users will just assume it only applies to
> emotional support animals. This is totally justified. I've been a
> handler for 7 years and this would be the first time I've ever had to
> provide documentation of any kind for access.
>
> Mike
>
> On 1/22/18, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > The only problem I have ever had with Delta is that their main hub is
> > Atlanta and TSA staff in Atlanta are poorly trained.? I'm not
> > complaining about TSA, though, because they are light years better than
> > the private company security goons we had at airports across the country
> > before the government took over.? TSA personnel may not all be great,
> > but at least most of them are professional and courteous - some are even
> > friendly.
> >
> > I don't want to sound like a shill for Delta, but I have traveled on a
> > lot of airlines for hundreds of thousands of miles.? While I have never
> > had a bad experience traveling with Claire on any airline, except for
> > delays and mechanical repairs, Delta has given me outstanding service on
> > every booking and every flight.
> >
> > *David in Clearwater, FL*
> > *david at bakerinet.com
> >
> > *
> > On 1/21/2018 11:59 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
> >> I have to agree with Cindy. Delta has been more trouble when I fly with
> >> them, and I have quit wasting my time complaining about the poor
> treatment
> >> I get from them because it has not done a bit of good. American and
> >> Southwest I have never had a problem with.
> >> Jordan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
> michaeldforzano%40gmail.com
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:55:32 -0500
> From: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> To: Michael Forzano via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID: <1ebdea55-c755-53eb-8007-b9b30684e98f at bakerinet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Neither have I, but they have the authority to ask for proof of
> vaccination.? As I said before, GDF advised us to always travel with
> documentation.
>
> *David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL*
> *david at bakerinet.com
>
> *
> On 1/22/2018 11:43 AM, Michael Forzano via NAGDU wrote:
> > I've been a
> > handler for 7 years and this would be the first time I've ever had to
> > provide documentation of any kind for access.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:59:08 -0500
> From: Marianne Denning <marianne at denningweb.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID:
> <CANZu-JgZsnALp5Xk3M2R-hqRk9CE+ziXNEhSRDBhiFTi5ja5QA@
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I have been aware for many years that airlines can request a vaccination
> record. It has never happened. I don't see that showing a proof of
> vaccination is a problem, but I do think requiring it 2 days in advance is
> unreasonable since someone may be travelling due to an emergency.
>
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 11:55 AM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Neither have I, but they have the authority to ask for proof of
> > vaccination. As I said before, GDF advised us to always travel with
> > documentation.
> >
> > *David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL*
> > *david at bakerinet.com
> >
> > *
> > On 1/22/2018 11:43 AM, Michael Forzano via NAGDU wrote:
> >
> >> I've been a
> >> handler for 7 years and this would be the first time I've ever had to
> >> provide documentation of any kind for access.
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/marianne%
> > 40denningweb.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
> (513) 607-6053
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:08:02 -0600
> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jordangandbelto at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID: <019c01d393a3$909013b0$b1b03b10$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> You must be joking because if you have traveled that much via Delta you
> have had to had run into problems with them in Atlanta at somepoint
> especially service dog wise.
> Jordan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 8:40 AM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
>
> The only problem I have ever had with Delta is that their main hub is
> Atlanta and TSA staff in Atlanta are poorly trained. I'm not complaining
> about TSA, though, because they are light years better than the private
> company security goons we had at airports across the country before the
> government took over. TSA personnel may not all be great, but at least
> most of them are professional and courteous - some are even friendly.
>
> I don't want to sound like a shill for Delta, but I have traveled on a lot
> of airlines for hundreds of thousands of miles. While I have never had a
> bad experience traveling with Claire on any airline, except for delays and
> mechanical repairs, Delta has given me outstanding service on every booking
> and every flight.
>
> *David in Clearwater, FL*
> *david at bakerinet.com
>
> *
> On 1/21/2018 11:59 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
> > I have to agree with Cindy. Delta has been more trouble when I fly with
> them, and I have quit wasting my time complaining about the poor treatment
> I get from them because it has not done a bit of good. American and
> Southwest I have never had a problem with.
> > Jordan
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
> jordangandbelto%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:09:08 -0500
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID: <3bf2c5d98ddc302b22907d6e651f5c80.squirrel at mail.panix.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Even in a normal situation, I think it's unreasonable to require showing
> proof of vaccination 2 days in advance, if I have to physically go
> somewhere and show it. A trip to the airport for me is between $75-100
> each way, or hours on various buses and trains.
> Tracy
>
> > I have been aware for many years that airlines can request a vaccination
> > record. It has never happened. I don't see that showing a proof of
> > vaccination is a problem, but I do think requiring it 2 days in advance
> is
> > unreasonable since someone may be travelling due to an emergency.
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 11:55 AM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Neither have I, but they have the authority to ask for proof of
> >> vaccination. As I said before, GDF advised us to always travel with
> >> documentation.
> >>
> >> *David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL*
> >> *david at bakerinet.com
> >>
> >> *
> >> On 1/22/2018 11:43 AM, Michael Forzano via NAGDU wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've been a
> >>> handler for 7 years and this would be the first time I've ever had to
> >>> provide documentation of any kind for access.
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/marianne%
> >> 40denningweb.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
> > Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
> > (513) 607-6053
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:34:18 -0500
> From: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID: <f8ed1770-12aa-6469-b1af-70635aa4a3b1 at bakerinet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> My only problems in Atlanta recently have been with TSA, not with
> Delta.? Claire refuses to use indoor relief areas, but that's our
> problem, not theirs.? If I'm delayed on the way there and my connection
> is too tight, attendants have often offered to take Claire out to the
> tarmac, or to book us on a later flight so she and I have enough time to
> get outside and back in through security.? Of course, I always let the
> disability desk know that I am traveling with a guide dog and "Trained
> Service Animal" is on both my record and my boarding passes.? When I
> traveled with a cane I made sure that my ticket and record noted the
> visual impairment.? They have always been very gracious.
>
> In former days, when traveling with a cane, I used to have a problem
> with their cooperating carriers, because of delays, but if it was a
> delayed Delta connection, I would be advised by text or email.? If
> delayed by more than two hours, they would automatically re-book me.
>
> *David in Clearwater, FL*
> *david at bakerinet.com
>
> *
> On 1/22/2018 12:08 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
> > You must be joking because if you have traveled that much via Delta you
> have had to had run into problems with them in Atlanta at somepoint
> especially service dog wise.
> > Jordan
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:43:48 -0500
> From: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID: <3e95d0ef-a9f4-98c5-0939-8c06137417fd at bakerinet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> If that was how the rule was applied, I think it would be unreasonable,
> too.? As I noted in my previous email, I've found Delta to be very
> accommodating and they have verbally indicated that for service animals,
> bringing the proof to the airport on the day of departure is going to be
> acceptable.? The disability desk can also receive email attachments.?
> Their issue is not with our pups, but with 'Fluffy'.? As others have
> pointed out, however, the irony is that the policy will do nothing to
> inhibit the presence of poorly trained 'Fluffys'.
>
> *David in Clearwater, FL*
> *david at bakerinet.com
>
> *
> On 1/22/2018 12:09 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
> > Even in a normal situation, I think it's unreasonable to require showing
> > proof of vaccination 2 days in advance, if I have to physically go
> > somewhere and show it. A trip to the airport for me is between $75-100
> > each way, o
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:54:12 -0800
> From: "Michael Hingson" <mike at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID: <01e101d393b2$648ed3a0$2dac7ae0$@michaelhingson.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> David,
>
> I believe many of the airlines have been accommodating to a fair degree.
> However, Delta's new policy changes the rules, and not for the good.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 10:44 AM
> To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
>
> If that was how the rule was applied, I think it would be unreasonable,
> too. As I noted in my previous email, I've found Delta to be very
> accommodating and they have verbally indicated that for service animals,
> bringing the proof to the airport on the day of departure is going to be
> acceptable. The disability desk can also receive email attachments. Their
> issue is not with our pups, but with 'Fluffy'. As others have pointed out,
> however, the irony is that the policy will do nothing to inhibit the
> presence of poorly trained 'Fluffys'.
>
> *David in Clearwater, FL*
> *david at bakerinet.com
>
> *
> On 1/22/2018 12:09 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
> > Even in a normal situation, I think it's unreasonable to require
> > showing proof of vaccination 2 days in advance, if I have to
> > physically go somewhere and show it. A trip to the airport for me is
> > between $75-100 each way, o
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%
> 40michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:34:30 -0800
> From: Michael Forzano <michaeldforzano at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID:
> <CAKRnMMXcBQE+6xzT0Ep0CRbuHhy7MWDMNc2eDcqWpf
> grDbD1YQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I think it is totally unreasonable to have to provide vaccination
> records, period. Even if I can bring them the day of the flight. It is
> a burden that others do not have, and infringes on our right to
> access. Think about it, do we have to provide stores, restaurants,
> Uber drivers with vaccination records for our dogs? Of course not,
> because the ADA forbids it. If it turns out that Delta's policy isn't
> a violation of the ACAA, they are exploiting a loophole. I am glad
> NAGDU is taking quick action on this. If others on the list are okay
> with going through this red tape that won't even solve the underlying
> issue, that's fine and great, but it's not something I and many others
> are comfortable with.
>
> As someone who travels often, it is important to me that I can book a
> flight, check in online, show up at the airport and go straight
> through TSA. This new policy makes that impossible. And if
> implemented, the other airlines will likely soon follow Delta's lead.
>
> My dog is from Guiding Eyes, and we were not advised to always carry
> documentation, as it should be. Like I said, I have never shown
> documentation of any kind in my 7 years of being a guide dog user.
>
> Mike
>
> On 1/22/18, Michael Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > I believe many of the airlines have been accommodating to a fair degree.
> > However, Delta's new policy changes the rules, and not for the good.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
> NAGDU
> > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 10:44 AM
> > To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> >
> > If that was how the rule was applied, I think it would be unreasonable,
> too.
> > As I noted in my previous email, I've found Delta to be very
> accommodating
> > and they have verbally indicated that for service animals, bringing the
> > proof to the airport on the day of departure is going to be acceptable.
> The
> > disability desk can also receive email attachments. Their issue is not
> with
> > our pups, but with 'Fluffy'. As others have pointed out, however, the
> irony
> > is that the policy will do nothing to inhibit the presence of poorly
> trained
> > 'Fluffys'.
> >
> > *David in Clearwater, FL*
> > *david at bakerinet.com
> >
> > *
> > On 1/22/2018 12:09 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
> >> Even in a normal situation, I think it's unreasonable to require
> >> showing proof of vaccination 2 days in advance, if I have to
> >> physically go somewhere and show it. A trip to the airport for me is
> >> between $75-100 each way, o
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%
> 40michaelhingson.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
> michaeldforzano%40gmail.com
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:58:40 -0500
> From: d m gina <dmgina at mysero.net>
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Using positive reinforcement instead of
> punishment
> Message-ID: <8a4595c3.25e5.4954.bd3b.02a295feeff6 at samobile.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format="flowed"
>
> Over head objects crack me up.
> I was at a school where we were practicing this over head thing
> Problem was, everyone was much taler than I was.
> So I would strole under the over head.
> They would lower it down and the same thing would happen.
> Now I just cracked up.
> I am at five feet where the fellers were at six five and so on.
> Yes I was the short one in the class.
> Original message:
> > My last dog from GDB was very good at overheads, because they really
> > worked on it. They had an obstacle course set up in the garden, with
> > overhead bars that fell down with a clang if one bumped into them, so we
> > could actually practice.
> > That was 20 years ago now. Does GDB still really work at avoiding
> > overheads, or does any other school? I know they can be tricky, as dogs
> > don't really look up very high.
> > Tracy
>
> >> This is such a good conversation with good ideas.
>
> >> On Jan 21, 2018 15:07, "Dan Weiner via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> >> very interesting, I honestly have never found that, right out of the box
> >> so
> >> to speak, the dogs do well with overheads, it takes a lot of
> reinforcement
> >> and consistency, even then I'm not convinced that dogs are able to look
> up
> >> when they're looking forward, right and left--smile. I'm tall enough,
> six
> >> four, 193 cm, and even if my dog does it well, sooner or later something
> >> will happen--smile. All of my dogs did great at it in familiar
> >> environments where they were expecting overheads that they were used to,
> >> but in unfamiliar areas it could be a problem. Yes, tapping or showing
> >> the
> >> dog the object, maybe shaking it a bit if you won't hurt yourself is
> >> fine. But I just warn you, in my opinion, sooner or later you will hit
> >> something from overhead.
>
> >> On the thee hand, I can tell you a story--smile. you were afraid of
> that,
> >> weren't you.
>
> >> When I was taking a summer course at Middle bury college I stayed in the
> >> dorm and there was a staircase which would be partially in the way of my
> >> face--smile. when I walked with Evan, dog at the time he always took me
> >> around it. but one day there was going to be a loud party with dancing
> >> and
> >> I left Evan to sleep in my room and sallied forth with the cane....well
> >> not
> >> knowing that that particular staircase would indeed cause resistance to
> my
> >> head if passed--smile I banged right in to it...Evan had always taken me
> >> around it...that definitely woke me up. The moral of the story is, I bet
> >> for every misjudgement our dogs make even with overheads that there are
> >> plenty of things they are keeping ous safe from.
>
>
> >> Dan the man with Parker the hound
>
>
>
>
> >> On 1/21/2018 2:49 PM, Bianka via NAGDU wrote:
>
> >>> Hi Jiska and all,
>
> >>> My current school does not usually teach to rework a situation like
> this
> >>> but I know it from my previous school and have used it with all my
> dogs.
> >>> Personally, I found that leash corrections are not the right way to
> >>> handle
> >>> these kinds of situations. I feel asking the dog to stop, turn around
> >>> and
> >>> rework the situation is disrupting the flow in such a way that usually
> >>> the
> >>> dog will be motivated to do it right next time. Now, if I see the same
> >>> mistake a second time I usually drop the harness handle and show my dog
> >>> the
> >>> overhead obstacle or the curb he/she missed if it???s safe, that will
> >>> usually
> >>> do the trick. Even with my black lab who was sometimes hard to motivate
> >>> a
> >>> leash correction would only shut her down in those situations.
>
> >>> As for the clicker, I have conditioned a praise word and I do use
> treats
> >>> if I know it will help my dog stay on track. I find the clicker very
> >>> helpful in training really specific behaviors but you have to be very
> >>> careful as to the timing of the click. On route I use a conditioned
> >>> marker
> >>> word and treats. As for a no reward marker, I think it???s a question
> of
> >>> attitude. Dogs are very good pattern matchers. So you could either use
> a
> >>> non-reward marker or just use a command to tell the dog what he/she
> >>> should
> >>> do. In fact, my school teaches a non-reward marker or verbal correction
> >>> has
> >>> always to be followed by the thing we want our dog to do in that
> >>> particular
> >>> moment.
>
> >>> Just my two cents, hth,
>
> >>> Kind regards,
>
> >>> Bianka
>
>
>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
> dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>
>
>
>
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> carcione%40access.net
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>
> --
> --Dar
> skype: dmgina23
> FB: dmgina
> www.twitter.com/dmgina
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:53:50 -0500
> From: "NAGDU President" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDF
> Message-ID: <00f501d393d3$dee10df0$9ca329d0$@verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Yiska,
>
> Let me first state that my most previous guide dog was trained by
> the Guide Dog Foundation. Let me also state that "Positive reinforcement"
> refers to giving something that causes a behavior to increase. "Negative
> reinforcement" refers to withdrawing something to make a behavior
> increaseTo
> say this another way, a behavior is reinforced when it increases. The words
> "positive" and "negative" do not refer to the quality of the reinforce but
> the direction of the reinforce. The term "punishment" also does not
> necessarily refer to something that is negative but refers to whether a
> behavior increases - is reinforced - or decreases - is punished.
>
> Leash corrections do not instill fear in the dog when used
> properly.
> They simply bring the dog's attention back to the person at the end of the
> leash so as to regain the dog's focus. Of course, there are some who use
> leash corrections to instill fear but this is not the purpose of the
> correction.
>
> GDF uses the mantra, 3/4 praise; 1/4 correction". It is far better
> to reinforce a wanted behavior than to punish an unwanted one
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
>
>
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Yiska via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 10:44 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Yiska
> Subject: [NAGDU] GDF
>
> Hello
> I had questions about GDF's training methods. Do they use any negative
> reinforcement? Do they use only positive without leash corrections? I want
> something positive based not fear based. Thanks for your time.
> Yiska
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:09:09 -0600
> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jordangandbelto at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> Message-ID: <018501d393d6$03037900$090a6b00$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I agree with Mike on this.
> Jordan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Forzano
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 1:35 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Michael Forzano <michaeldforzano at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
>
> I think it is totally unreasonable to have to provide vaccination records,
> period. Even if I can bring them the day of the flight. It is a burden that
> others do not have, and infringes on our right to access. Think about it,
> do
> we have to provide stores, restaurants, Uber drivers with vaccination
> records for our dogs? Of course not, because the ADA forbids it. If it
> turns
> out that Delta's policy isn't a violation of the ACAA, they are exploiting
> a
> loophole. I am glad NAGDU is taking quick action on this. If others on the
> list are okay with going through this red tape that won't even solve the
> underlying issue, that's fine and great, but it's not something I and many
> others are comfortable with.
>
> As someone who travels often, it is important to me that I can book a
> flight, check in online, show up at the airport and go straight through
> TSA. This new policy makes that impossible. And if implemented, the other
> airlines will likely soon follow Delta's lead.
>
> My dog is from Guiding Eyes, and we were not advised to always carry
> documentation, as it should be. Like I said, I have never shown
> documentation of any kind in my 7 years of being a guide dog user.
>
> Mike
>
> On 1/22/18, Michael Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > I believe many of the airlines have been accommodating to a fair degree.
> > However, Delta's new policy changes the rules, and not for the good.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
> > NAGDU
> > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 10:44 AM
> > To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fwd: Delta
> >
> > If that was how the rule was applied, I think it would be unreasonable,
> too.
> > As I noted in my previous email, I've found Delta to be very
> > accommodating and they have verbally indicated that for service
> > animals, bringing the proof to the airport on the day of departure is
> > going to be acceptable. The disability desk can also receive email
> > attachments. Their issue is not with our pups, but with 'Fluffy'. As
> > others have pointed out, however, the irony is that the policy will do
> > nothing to inhibit the presence of poorly trained 'Fluffys'.
> >
> > *David in Clearwater, FL*
> > *david at bakerinet.com
> >
> > *
> > On 1/22/2018 12:09 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
> >> Even in a normal situation, I think it's unreasonable to require
> >> showing proof of vaccination 2 days in advance, if I have to
> >> physically go somewhere and show it. A trip to the airport for me is
> >> between $75-100 each way, o
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhings
> > on.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/michaeldforzano%40g
> > mail.com
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> NAGDU:
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> jordangandbelto%40gmail.c
> om
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:27:13 -0900
> From: Bryan Gearry <bgearry at alaskafrontier.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDF
> Message-ID: <576d33b1-741b-acdb-ce73-459e836d08c3 at alaskafrontier.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> As also a graduate of GDF, well said Marion! That was perfectly put.
> That was my interpretation as well.
>
>
> On 1/22/2018 1:53 PM, NAGDU President via NAGDU wrote:
> > Yiska,
> >
> > Let me first state that my most previous guide dog was trained by
> > the Guide Dog Foundation. Let me also state that "Positive reinforcement"
> > refers to giving something that causes a behavior to increase. "Negative
> > reinforcement" refers to withdrawing something to make a behavior
> increaseTo
> > say this another way, a behavior is reinforced when it increases. The
> words
> > "positive" and "negative" do not refer to the quality of the reinforce
> but
> > the direction of the reinforce. The term "punishment" also does not
> > necessarily refer to something that is negative but refers to whether a
> > behavior increases - is reinforced - or decreases - is punished.
> >
> > Leash corrections do not instill fear in the dog when used
> properly.
> > They simply bring the dog's attention back to the person at the end of
> the
> > leash so as to regain the dog's focus. Of course, there are some who use
> > leash corrections to instill fear but this is not the purpose of the
> > correction.
> >
> > GDF uses the mantra, 3/4 praise; 1/4 correction". It is far better
> > to reinforce a wanted behavior than to punish an unwanted one
> >
> > Fraternally yours,
> > Marion
> >
> >
> > Marion Gwizdala, President
> > National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
> > National Federation of the Blind
> > (813) 626-2789
> > President at NAGDU.ORG
> >
> >
> > The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> > characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> > expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
> people
> > and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
> holds
> > you back.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Yiska via
> NAGDU
> > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 10:44 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Cc: Yiska
> > Subject: [NAGDU] GDF
> >
> > Hello
> > I had questions about GDF's training methods. Do they use any negative
> > reinforcement? Do they use only positive without leash corrections? I
> want
> > something positive based not fear based. Thanks for your time.
> > Yiska
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
> blind411%40verizon.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
> bgearry%40alaskafrontier.net
>
> --
> WWW.Alaskafrontier.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of NAGDU Digest, Vol 154, Issue 19
> **************************************
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