[NAGDU] Guide dog schools employing blind people
Julie Johnson
julielj at neb.rr.com
Wed Oct 3 14:27:40 UTC 2018
Tracy,
I believe so, but I don't *know* because it hasn't been done. I don't
think we will know until a program is willing to give a blind instructor the
opportunity to try. This would mean giving the blind person the ability to
use whatever alternative techniques he/she might need or want. It would
mean being open to allowing the blind person the ability to go about
training in a way that worked for that person. What that looks like exactly
I don't know. I also suspect it will take some trial and error to find the
right set of alternative techniques and job structure to get to success.
To the best of my knowledge there has been only one experiment of this
nature, with one blind person, at one school and only for a short time. I
don't think that's enough info to draw conclusions from. There are sighted
instructors that don't work out, but we don't draw the conclusion that it
was because they were sighted. Somehow when blindness enters the picture
it's always to blame. *sigh*
It's been suggested before that there be a guide dog program started from
the ground up using the NFB structure discovery model of learning and
associated philosophy. It's a lovely idea and perhaps the best way to
ensure that a blind guide dog trainer/instructor has the tools and support
to do the job. It's a crazy lot of $$$ and would need a ton more support
than currently exists. If I win big in the lottery let's do it!
Julie
On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
<https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 9:07 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Tracy Carcione
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide dog schools employing blind people
Schools have systems they've had in place for a long time. Granted, a blind
person can achieve the same results using different techniques, but can they
do it in the same time frame, without putting in hours of overtime? Can
they train a string of dogs sufficiently to be safe guides in 3-4 months,
and train a student to safely use that dog in 2-4 weeks, working with a wide
variety of skill levels?
The answer to both questions may be Yes; I just don't know.
And, the instructors I've had also encourage thinking through problems, and
don't leap in right away to straighten us out.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via
NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 9:32 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Julie Johnson
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide dog schools employing blind people
I'm one of the owner trainers. Yes, of course, I think blind people can
train guide dogs. However, I do not think blind people can be plopped into
a guide dog trainer job as they currently exist and be successful. Safety
measures and alternative techniques are needed. I would not take an
untrained dog into a part of town I am not 100% familiar with and in control
of and work a dog. When I start a dog I only work where I know the area and
know for certain there is no construction, overhanging branches, potholes or
other hazards. Slowly as the dog shows competence in the skills of guiding,
we venture out to more and more complex and unpredictable places.
I had my fourth dog trained privately. that trainer was blind. She brought
the dog back to me and worked with me for a few days like an instructor
would. She did choose to use sighted assistance to monitor me and the dog
working. This was before services like AIRA. I also didn't have an iPhone
at the time. I think if we did this now I could have been in contact with
her via cell phone and she and or I could have used AIRA to double-check the
area to better understand why the dog was responding in a particular way.
I also had a blind cane travel instructor. I think many of the same
techniques for that job would be relevant to working as a guide dog
instructor. However, the employer would have to be open to the instructor
doing things with blindness alternatives. Again, a blind person cannot be
successful when the expectation is that they will do things in the same way
as a sighted person. You can get to the same result, but the path is
different.
I have worked with a couple of people who were in the process of training
their own guides. I typically follow fairly closely and use my cane. A
second dog can be distracting to the dog in training and that just
complicates the situation which isn't needed. Dog distractions should
certainly be added, but not in the very beginning. One thing at a time and
don't overwhelm the dog or the student. If I'm unsure the dog will stop at
the curb, I move ahead and put my cane across their path of travel just off
the edge of the curb. This ensures they don't step off into traffic. If
we are going to be working in an area unfamiliar to me, like the other
person's home area, I will walk the route myself alone before working with
the student on that route.
I encourage problem solving and thinking through the situation, instead of
providing all the answers. When there is no instructor right there the
handler needs to be able to sort through information and draw their own
conclusions. I also tend to offer my own experiences of what has worked for
me without insisting this is the only way. There are lots of ways to train
and work a dog and it's important to me to respect that.
I have no desire to train dogs for others. I am open to assisting others
with training their own dog though. I do know of two blind people who will
privately train guide/service dogs for a fee.
Julie
On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
<https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
-----Original Message-----
From: Tara Briggs via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 6:38 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Tara Briggs
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide dog schools employing blind people
Thank you everyone for your responses so far. Honestly I find it
disappointing and frustrating how little employment the schools offer they’re
blind graduates. I’m not saying that the Guide dog schools should employ
only blind graduates but it just seems to me that there’s a lot more than
confident line graduates can do and should be doing. I remember talking to
some friends that went to GDB when they had their blind dorm residence
assistance and they absolutely loved them! Sometimes I feel like as blind
people we can give each other the best advice about how to work with our
dogs because we live it! Here at the Seeing Eye the counselor is cited and
to be honest I have found myself so intensely missing a blind full-time
mental health therapist. Anyway, why do you think that the majority of the
schools employ so few of their own graduates? It’s been really fascinating
to me to meet blind people who simply don’t think that blind people can
teach Cain travel. And whenever I tell them about my incredible amazing
experience with my cane travel instructor, Deja Pal, I just get nowhere!
Well, I look forward to further thoughts on this thread. I know there are a
few people on this list Who have trained their own dogs. To those of you
who have trained your own dog, do you think that blind people can be guide
dog trainers? Do you think that blind people Can we guide dog instructors?
If so, why do you think this and how do you think nblind people could do
it?
Tara
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 3, 2018, at 6:34 AM, Jenine Stanley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
> GDF has 3 blind people on staff and at least 3 on the Board of Directors
> plus several service dog handlers on that board as well.
>
> The 3 blind staff, including myself, are Carolyn who works in my office
> and is the main person who answers our department phones but she also
> arranges presentations and gives people in person tours and on=-site
> workshops. Philip is our Dog Adoption Coordinator, not his official title
> but I actually don’t know his official title. He works directly with dogs
> that are being adopted, either after retirement or a career change.
>
>> On Oct 2, 2018, at 10:46 PM, Milissa Garside via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> As far as I understand, the guide dog foundation also currently has two
>> blind employees on staff. However, I am unsure what their official
>> titles are and do not want to put out misinformation. GDF folks, feel
>> free to chime in.
>>
>> Last I knew, the psychologist on staff at guide dogs for the blind is
>> also blind and is a guide dog user. In addition, I know that there used
>> to be another blind woman who worked at guide dogs for the blind several
>> years ago. If I am not mistaken, I believe she did some work that was
>> involved with training the dogs. I remember a while back, there was a big
>> movement to try to get the guide dog schools to have blind people
>> actually involved with training the dogs. This woman that I am thinking
>> of worked at guide dogs for the blind at that time.
>>
>> Milissa
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Tara Briggs via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all! To the guide dog school‘s employ many blind people? To me it
>>> just doesn’t seem like there are many schools that employs blind
>>> people. I know that for seeing eye and I understand guiding eyes have a
>>> president that is blind. But here on the seeing eye, the only other two
>>> members of the staff who are blind is the receptionist is blind and they
>>> have a person who works on access issues that is blind. Everybody else
>>> is sighted to my understanding. I would be interested in more
>>> information and anyone’s thoughts on this subject.
>>> Tara
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
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