[NAGDU] New GDB contract

Kerri Sprecher spedangel84 at gmail.com
Thu Oct 18 21:54:49 UTC 2018


I usually don’t comment on things that I don’t know a whole lot about, this contract being one of those, but in this case, I just have to say something. Other than the fact that it is very apparent that The school wants to graduate to know that they can take the dog back at any point, it seems rather repetitious to me. I didn’t memorize parts of it to recap on, but a few of those list items were the same thing, just said a different way, which seems rather disorganized to me for a professional sounding policy. I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, or maybe some others feel that way too. I’m sorry that you had to deal with this and make that very tough decision, or maybe not so tough decision, to not go back and good for you for not signing that kind of contract.

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 4:39 PM, Sherry Gomes via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Here is the specific part of the contract. And note that it does say this applies, even if you have ownership. The previous section of the contract had other stipulations such as, not using the dog for "personal fundraising". I could not in good conscience sign this thing. 
> 
> 
> 7.    Loss of Use.  The Guide Dog User understands and agrees that the following conditions or events may well give rise to GDB retaking possession of the Guide Dog, even if, at the time of such conditions or events, ownership of the Guide Dog has been transferred from GDB to the Guide Dog User:
> 
> a.    The Guide Dog User is unable to work the Guide Dog for an extended period of time.
> 
> b.    The Guide Dog User is unable to provide necessary care or companionship for the Guide Dog.
> 
> c.    The Guide Dog’s health, safety, or wellbeing has been compromised or is in jeopardy. 
> 
> d.    The Guide Dog is not properly cared for including without limitation, the Guide Dog is malnourished; dehydrated; not receiving proper exercise through guide work, play, or walks; not receiving mental and physical stimulation; not receiving veterinary care or associated follow-up care; not being handled appropriately; not housed indoors with Guide Dog User; has access to unsecured areas; or works in an unsafe environment.
> 
> e.    After being offered instruction, assistance, and/or directed intervention from a veterinarian or GDB, the Guide Dog continues to be over/under weight: meaning a 10% or greater deviation of the Guide Dog’s graduation weight or the Guide Dog’s Body Conditioning Score deviates more than two points in either direction from a score of 5 (out of 9) on the Body Conditioning Score scale.  
> 
> f.    The Guide Dog is not being treated humanely including without limitation being verbally or physically abused.
> 
> g.    The Guide Dog’s guide work skills are no longer safely performed. 
> 
> h.    The Guide Dog is not being effectively directed or managed by the Guide Dog User.
> 
> I.    The Guide Dog is a threat to other people or other dogs.
> 
> j.    The Guide Dog User violates the terms of this Contract, any other agreement between the parties, or GDB’s policies and standards.
> 
> 
> Sherry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 12:53 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jenine Stanley <jeninems at icloud.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] New GDB contract
> 
> I’m curious to read the actual contract. 
> 
> I say this in part because in the GDF contract, you do own your dog. GDF cannot remove that dog unless they go through a 3rd party, which is typically the court system via Animal Control in your area. It’s a process and one no school that does grant full ownership goes into lightly. 
> 
> Technically though, a school could in fact remove your dog but not without going through a 3rd party. Not sure if this is what the GDB contract states or not.  If not, then it’s not ownership.
> 
>> On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:47 PM, sunshine via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> In GEB's ownership contract there is or was a clause that stated that though we owned our dog, they still had license to remove the dog. I signed up for ownership of Ivanna. When I saw that clause, I wondered why I even bothered. Granted, they wouldn't have removed Ivanna, but they could have as has been done to others. We either own our dogs or we don't. I'm so glad that TSE doesn't remove our dogs from us. If there are complaints then the SPCA would need to be called. If it were deemed necessary that a dog be removed, they would have to do it and in turn the dog would be returned to The Seeing Eye.
>> 
>>> On Oct 18, 2018, at 12:38 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi sherry.
>>> I'm very sorry to hear this.  I remember in the '90's, I wanted to own my
>>> dog, but, when I read the contract, it said GDB could take her away
>>> anyway, if they felt like it, so I didn't bother.  Then, in the 2000's, I
>>> tried again, and the contract gave me actual ownership, so I signed it. 
>>> Now it sounds like they've not only gone back to the old contract, but
>>> they've added even more reasons why they could take away a dog. 
>>> Disgusting.
>>> I would say that I hope other people will complain, as you did, and GDB
>>> will see the error of their ways.  Unfortunately, most GDB graduates don't
>>> seem to care about ownership at all, or at least they didn't when I was
>>> still one of them.
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>> 
>>>> I am specifically upset about what it says about ownership. Yes, we all
>>>> know
>>>> I think, that GDB doesn't give immediate ownership, and I wish they did.
>>>> But
>>>> in the contract they have now, there's a section about ownership.
>>>> Basically,
>>>> it says even if you have ownership of your dog, GDB can take your dog away
>>>> for just about anything. All the conditions they'd take it away if you
>>>> didn't have ownership are reasons they would take it away if you do.
>>>> Everything from what they would consider abuse to not working your dog
>>>> enough or for a long period. For instance in my case, in the past I've had
>>>> several joint replacement surgeries, meaning I have at least a two month
>>>> recovery period. In most of those instances, either GDB boarded my dog
>>>> temporarily until I got home from the hospital, or friends took care of
>>>> the
>>>> dogs. I arranged with neighbors to help me with relieving my dog, but I
>>>> could still feed and care for them, with some modifications. But the new
>>>> contract says even if I own my dogs, which I do, they can take them away
>>>> at
>>>> their own discretion.
>>>> 
>>>> I did write a strongly worded letter to Chris Benninger expressing my
>>>> unhappiness and told her that unless they change the contract I could not
>>>> get a dog from them because I would never sign such a demeaning document.
>>>> 
>>>> The contract also reverted back to some of their old wording, including
>>>> not
>>>> using your dog for begging, though that wasn't the express phrase used.
>>>> For
>>>> me, though I know this organization was happy to see the end of the
>>>> California guide dog board, I feel like GDB is taking advantage of having
>>>> no
>>>> overseeing board to go backward instead of forward in how they treat their
>>>> alumni.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm incredibly unhappy about it. Especially because with my other
>>>> disabilities, it might be hard to get another school to work with me.
>>>> 
>>>> Sherry
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:11 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] New GDB contract
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Sherry.
>>>> I haven't heard anything about the latest GDB contract.  What is in it
>>>> that
>>>> you object to?
>>>> It must be distressing for you to find something so obnoxious you can't go
>>>> back, having been with them so long.
>>>> I was also with GDB for many years, but finally decided to switch for
>>>> several reasons, some of which were philosophical differences.
>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Even at my first class at GDB in 1975, we had lots of people with
>>>>> residual vision. This isn't anything new with GDB or any other school
>>>>> I suppose. I can't speak for any other organization, but I know GDB
>>>>> trains their dogs to be competent whatever the level of blindness the
>>>>> handler will have. The instructors work them under blindfold during
>>>>> the training, and they have to do complete routes under blindfold
>>>>> before they can state that the dog is class ready. Or that's how it
>>>>> was in 2014, the last time I went there. I don't intend to go back to
>>>>> GDB when Petunia retires for lots of reasons including physical
>>>>> ability for me and strong disagreement with their recent contract, a
>>>>> contract I would refuse to sign so wouldn't be able to graduate.
>>>>> But unless they've changed a lot, their dogs are definitely trained
>>>>> with instructors under blindfold. I know that sometimes they have
>>>>> students with low vision use sleep shades as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sherry
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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