[NAGDU] New GDB contract

Fri Oct 19 17:06:12 UTC 2018

I agree with this last post. When I had problem with xchool and they told me that thay had ownership of my last guide dog I told them enforce your contract in court. I spoke to my attorney who told that school or the police could not take guide dog with out getting court order then police would then follw the court order. My Attorney told me that it would cost me 15,000 dollars or more and it would take about 2 years before school might win case. It would be blood bath for the school with discovery and all. The school back off and left me alone. I did get another dog on my terms.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President via NAGDU
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 12:15 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: NAGDU President
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] New GDB contract

Dear All,

	I am not an attorney, so my opinion is not legal advice but informal, informed guidance. A disputed contract would be litigated in civil court. No matter what a contract asserts, consumers have certain rights and contract disputes are governed by those rights. My guidance would be that, should any guide dog training program attempt to remove a dog for any reason, one should never, never, never agree. If a program threatens to call law enforcement, let them do so. When law enforcement officers arrive, advise the officers that the program staff is trespassing and ask they be removed. Tresspassing is a criminal offense law enforcement officers can enforce. Contract disputes are civil and law enforcement would simply advise the parties to get an attorney but would not get involved.

	Also, never give your dog over to a guide dog trainer if you are having any sort of dispute with them. Braille Monitor readers will recall that a Fidelco Guide Dogs trainer asked a consumer for permission to work her dog when she was having challenges with the dog's hesitancy to work near a specific location as the result of the dog's fear from having a sprinkler turn on and spray the dog in the face. The fidelco trainer loaded the dog into the van and drove away and the handler never got her dog back, in spite of the fact that she had been given ownership.

	As for not using the dog for personal fund raising, what does that mean? I am a professional musician who will, from time to time, set up in a public place and play for tips. This is personal fund raising and it is my job. What right has a guide dog training program to tell me I cannot pursue my career and live the life I want?

	The board of directors of the National Association of Guide Dog Users agreed during our September 30 meeting that we intend to hold guide dog training programs accountable for their paternalistic, custodial, and illegal  policies. This is one such instance of such behavior and, I hope, every Guide Dogs for the Blind consumer will refuse to sign this new contract. In addition, I would like to have a copy of it so I can send it to our legal counsel for their input.

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG
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The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sunshine via NAGDU
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:54 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: sunshine
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] New GDB contract

Actually, the clause is definitely in the contract. We agree to the terms and conditions so they can take the dog especially if someone neglects or abuses the dog. I'm not making this up -- it's fact.

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:53 PM, Jenine Stanley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I’m curious to read the actual contract. 
> 
> I say this in part because in the GDF contract, you do own your dog. GDF cannot remove that dog unless they go through a 3rd party, which is typically the court system via Animal Control in your area. It’s a process and one no school that does grant full ownership goes into lightly. 
> 
> Technically though, a school could in fact remove your dog but not without going through a 3rd party. Not sure if this is what the GDB contract states or not.  If not, then it’s not ownership.
> 
>> On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:47 PM, sunshine via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> In GEB's ownership contract there is or was a clause that stated that though we owned our dog, they still had license to remove the dog. I signed up for ownership of Ivanna. When I saw that clause, I wondered why I even bothered. Granted, they wouldn't have removed Ivanna, but they could have as has been done to others. We either own our dogs or we don't. I'm so glad that TSE doesn't remove our dogs from us. If there are complaints then the SPCA would need to be called. If it were deemed necessary that a dog be removed, they would have to do it and in turn the dog would be returned to The Seeing Eye.
>> 
>>> On Oct 18, 2018, at 12:38 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi sherry.
>>> I'm very sorry to hear this.  I remember in the '90's, I wanted to 
>>> own my dog, but, when I read the contract, it said GDB could take 
>>> her away anyway, if they felt like it, so I didn't bother.  Then, in 
>>> the 2000's, I tried again, and the contract gave me actual ownership, so I signed it.
>>> Now it sounds like they've not only gone back to the old contract, 
>>> but they've added even more reasons why they could take away a dog.
>>> Disgusting.
>>> I would say that I hope other people will complain, as you did, and 
>>> GDB will see the error of their ways.  Unfortunately, most GDB 
>>> graduates don't seem to care about ownership at all, or at least 
>>> they didn't when I was still one of them.
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>> 
>>>> I am specifically upset about what it says about ownership. Yes, we 
>>>> all know I think, that GDB doesn't give immediate ownership, and I 
>>>> wish they did.
>>>> But
>>>> in the contract they have now, there's a section about ownership.
>>>> Basically,
>>>> it says even if you have ownership of your dog, GDB can take your 
>>>> dog away for just about anything. All the conditions they'd take it 
>>>> away if you didn't have ownership are reasons they would take it away if you do.
>>>> Everything from what they would consider abuse to not working your 
>>>> dog enough or for a long period. For instance in my case, in the 
>>>> past I've had several joint replacement surgeries, meaning I have 
>>>> at least a two month recovery period. In most of those instances, 
>>>> either GDB boarded my dog temporarily until I got home from the 
>>>> hospital, or friends took care of the dogs. I arranged with 
>>>> neighbors to help me with relieving my dog, but I could still feed 
>>>> and care for them, with some modifications. But the new contract 
>>>> says even if I own my dogs, which I do, they can take them away at 
>>>> their own discretion.
>>>> 
>>>> I did write a strongly worded letter to Chris Benninger expressing 
>>>> my unhappiness and told her that unless they change the contract I 
>>>> could not get a dog from them because I would never sign such a demeaning document.
>>>> 
>>>> The contract also reverted back to some of their old wording, 
>>>> including not using your dog for begging, though that wasn't the 
>>>> express phrase used.
>>>> For
>>>> me, though I know this organization was happy to see the end of the 
>>>> California guide dog board, I feel like GDB is taking advantage of 
>>>> having no overseeing board to go backward instead of forward in how 
>>>> they treat their alumni.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm incredibly unhappy about it. Especially because with my other 
>>>> disabilities, it might be hard to get another school to work with me.
>>>> 
>>>> Sherry
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
>>>> Carcione via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:11 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] New GDB contract
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Sherry.
>>>> I haven't heard anything about the latest GDB contract.  What is in 
>>>> it that you object to?
>>>> It must be distressing for you to find something so obnoxious you 
>>>> can't go back, having been with them so long.
>>>> I was also with GDB for many years, but finally decided to switch 
>>>> for several reasons, some of which were philosophical differences.
>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Even at my first class at GDB in 1975, we had lots of people with 
>>>>> residual vision. This isn't anything new with GDB or any other 
>>>>> school I suppose. I can't speak for any other organization, but I 
>>>>> know GDB trains their dogs to be competent whatever the level of 
>>>>> blindness the handler will have. The instructors work them under 
>>>>> blindfold during the training, and they have to do complete routes 
>>>>> under blindfold before they can state that the dog is class ready. 
>>>>> Or that's how it was in 2014, the last time I went there. I don't 
>>>>> intend to go back to GDB when Petunia retires for lots of reasons 
>>>>> including physical ability for me and strong disagreement with 
>>>>> their recent contract, a contract I would refuse to sign so wouldn't be able to graduate.
>>>>> But unless they've changed a lot, their dogs are definitely 
>>>>> trained with instructors under blindfold. I know that sometimes 
>>>>> they have students with low vision use sleep shades as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sherry
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
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