[NAGDU] New GDB contract

NAGDU President blind411 at verizon.net
Tue Oct 30 13:05:04 UTC 2018


Sherry,

	I apologize for responding to this message so late in the thread. Your point is well-taken and is something everyone should consider when evaluating such policies. In the mid 1990s, I served on the Graduate Advisory Council for Southeastern Guide Dogs. While serving, I advocated for full and complete ownership of our guide dogs upon graduation. Everyone on the council opposed me and characterized me as "an NFB radical attempting to impose Federation philosophy one the Council". Fortunately, Mike Sargeant, SEGDI's CEO at the time, urged the Council to consider what I was saying and agreed with me. My point was that we were creating policy that would exist long after the current administration and we needed to make a policy to protect future consumers no matter what the future administration looked like. Eventually, the Council endorsed an ownership policy which, by the way, no longer exists in the strong form it once did.

	Fast forward to the early 2000s when the SEGDI board fired Mike Sargeant without cause and a large number of consumers protested outside their headquarters. We were told by a very reliabel source that the administration video recorded our presence and created a physical black list of individuals they would not serve in the future. I was on that list simply because I asked for a meeting with the board as an elected representative of guide dog consumers, was denied the meeting, and actively protested their behavior.

	In my opinion, guide dog users must begin viewing training programs more objectively and less emotionally so as to shift the paradigm of how we are treated by them. Most training programs view us as their charges rather than their consumers. This results in paternalistic and custodial policies and practices we would never agree to from another agency serving the blind.

	The board of directors of the National Association of Guide Dog Users has begun an initiative to review the policies and practices of guide dog training programs and hold them accountable for their objectional behavior. We promise to keep everyone in the loop on this initiative and its results.

Fraternally yours,
Marion

Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG
Visit our website
Follow us on Twitter
The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes via NAGDU
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 3:40 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Sherry Gomes
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] New GDB contract

As a follow up, I forwarded the contract to a very small private GDB email list I created when I worked there but still needed my own place for an outlet, and the list is still in existence with the core people who joined it back in the day. Anyway, nobody objected to the contract and seemed to think I was weird for feeling so strongly. This actually upset me as much as the contract. One of the things I said in my letter to Benninger about this was that maybe she could assure me nobody would take one of my dogs. But a few years ago, when that other CEO was there, and fired all those staff people, I, along with many other grads, raisers, donors and such, sent letters, signed petitions. I know for a fact that certain staff people referred to us as cry babies. Who's to say a future CEO making decisions the alumni would protest, might not pull our dogs in retaliation. This contract says they can do anything they want. 



-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President via NAGDU
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 10:15 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] New GDB contract

Dear All,

	I am not an attorney, so my opinion is not legal advice but informal, informed guidance. A disputed contract would be litigated in civil court. No matter what a contract asserts, consumers have certain rights and contract disputes are governed by those rights. My guidance would be that, should any guide dog training program attempt to remove a dog for any reason, one should never, never, never agree. If a program threatens to call law enforcement, let them do so. When law enforcement officers arrive, advise the officers that the program staff is trespassing and ask they be removed. Tresspassing is a criminal offense law enforcement officers can enforce. Contract disputes are civil and law enforcement would simply advise the parties to get an attorney but would not get involved.

	Also, never give your dog over to a guide dog trainer if you are having any sort of dispute with them. Braille Monitor readers will recall that a Fidelco Guide Dogs trainer asked a consumer for permission to work her dog when she was having challenges with the dog's hesitancy to work near a specific location as the result of the dog's fear from having a sprinkler turn on and spray the dog in the face. The fidelco trainer loaded the dog into the van and drove away and the handler never got her dog back, in spite of the fact that she had been given ownership.

	As for not using the dog for personal fund raising, what does that mean? I am a professional musician who will, from time to time, set up in a public place and play for tips. This is personal fund raising and it is my job. What right has a guide dog training program to tell me I cannot pursue my career and live the life I want?

	The board of directors of the National Association of Guide Dog Users agreed during our September 30 meeting that we intend to hold guide dog training programs accountable for their paternalistic, custodial, and illegal  policies. This is one such instance of such behavior and, I hope, every Guide Dogs for the Blind consumer will refuse to sign this new contract. In addition, I would like to have a copy of it so I can send it to our legal counsel for their input.

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala 
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG
Visit our website
Follow us on Twitter
The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sunshine via NAGDU
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:54 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: sunshine
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] New GDB contract

Actually, the clause is definitely in the contract. We agree to the terms and conditions so they can take the dog especially if someone neglects or abuses the dog. I'm not making this up -- it's fact.

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:53 PM, Jenine Stanley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I’m curious to read the actual contract. 
> 
> I say this in part because in the GDF contract, you do own your dog. GDF cannot remove that dog unless they go through a 3rd party, which is typically the court system via Animal Control in your area. It’s a process and one no school that does grant full ownership goes into lightly. 
> 
> Technically though, a school could in fact remove your dog but not without going through a 3rd party. Not sure if this is what the GDB contract states or not.  If not, then it’s not ownership.
> 
>> On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:47 PM, sunshine via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> In GEB's ownership contract there is or was a clause that stated that though we owned our dog, they still had license to remove the dog. I signed up for ownership of Ivanna. When I saw that clause, I wondered why I even bothered. Granted, they wouldn't have removed Ivanna, but they could have as has been done to others. We either own our dogs or we don't. I'm so glad that TSE doesn't remove our dogs from us. If there are complaints then the SPCA would need to be called. If it were deemed necessary that a dog be removed, they would have to do it and in turn the dog would be returned to The Seeing Eye.
>> 
>>> On Oct 18, 2018, at 12:38 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi sherry.
>>> I'm very sorry to hear this.  I remember in the '90's, I wanted to own my
>>> dog, but, when I read the contract, it said GDB could take her away
>>> anyway, if they felt like it, so I didn't bother.  Then, in the 2000's, I
>>> tried again, and the contract gave me actual ownership, so I signed it. 
>>> Now it sounds like they've not only gone back to the old contract, but
>>> they've added even more reasons why they could take away a dog. 
>>> Disgusting.
>>> I would say that I hope other people will complain, as you did, and GDB
>>> will see the error of their ways.  Unfortunately, most GDB graduates don't
>>> seem to care about ownership at all, or at least they didn't when I was
>>> still one of them.
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>> 
>>>> I am specifically upset about what it says about ownership. Yes, we all
>>>> know
>>>> I think, that GDB doesn't give immediate ownership, and I wish they did.
>>>> But
>>>> in the contract they have now, there's a section about ownership.
>>>> Basically,
>>>> it says even if you have ownership of your dog, GDB can take your dog away
>>>> for just about anything. All the conditions they'd take it away if you
>>>> didn't have ownership are reasons they would take it away if you do.
>>>> Everything from what they would consider abuse to not working your dog
>>>> enough or for a long period. For instance in my case, in the past I've had
>>>> several joint replacement surgeries, meaning I have at least a two month
>>>> recovery period. In most of those instances, either GDB boarded my dog
>>>> temporarily until I got home from the hospital, or friends took care of
>>>> the
>>>> dogs. I arranged with neighbors to help me with relieving my dog, but I
>>>> could still feed and care for them, with some modifications. But the new
>>>> contract says even if I own my dogs, which I do, they can take them away
>>>> at
>>>> their own discretion.
>>>> 
>>>> I did write a strongly worded letter to Chris Benninger expressing my
>>>> unhappiness and told her that unless they change the contract I could not
>>>> get a dog from them because I would never sign such a demeaning document.
>>>> 
>>>> The contract also reverted back to some of their old wording, including
>>>> not
>>>> using your dog for begging, though that wasn't the express phrase used.
>>>> For
>>>> me, though I know this organization was happy to see the end of the
>>>> California guide dog board, I feel like GDB is taking advantage of having
>>>> no
>>>> overseeing board to go backward instead of forward in how they treat their
>>>> alumni.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm incredibly unhappy about it. Especially because with my other
>>>> disabilities, it might be hard to get another school to work with me.
>>>> 
>>>> Sherry
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:11 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] New GDB contract
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Sherry.
>>>> I haven't heard anything about the latest GDB contract.  What is in it
>>>> that
>>>> you object to?
>>>> It must be distressing for you to find something so obnoxious you can't go
>>>> back, having been with them so long.
>>>> I was also with GDB for many years, but finally decided to switch for
>>>> several reasons, some of which were philosophical differences.
>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Even at my first class at GDB in 1975, we had lots of people with
>>>>> residual vision. This isn't anything new with GDB or any other school
>>>>> I suppose. I can't speak for any other organization, but I know GDB
>>>>> trains their dogs to be competent whatever the level of blindness the
>>>>> handler will have. The instructors work them under blindfold during
>>>>> the training, and they have to do complete routes under blindfold
>>>>> before they can state that the dog is class ready. Or that's how it
>>>>> was in 2014, the last time I went there. I don't intend to go back to
>>>>> GDB when Petunia retires for lots of reasons including physical
>>>>> ability for me and strong disagreement with their recent contract, a
>>>>> contract I would refuse to sign so wouldn't be able to graduate.
>>>>> But unless they've changed a lot, their dogs are definitely trained
>>>>> with instructors under blindfold. I know that sometimes they have
>>>>> students with low vision use sleep shades as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sherry
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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