[NAGDU] Tara, Rain gear

Fri Sep 21 00:46:11 UTC 2018

Hi Tara-

I’m talking from an wilderness guide and native tracker background here.  Freedom of movement is essential, but so is staying dry and in this case, as unrestricted as possible.  

Anyone’s suggestions that work for them is fine, if it has served them.  I might learn something new from theirs too.  Bottom line is there’s no wrong answer, except getting wet and cold, or being distracted by the rain.   

About hearing:  In this case, I’d go with anyone’s negative input about sound interference from a hood.  I’d avoid wearing a hood in all cases.  If sighted at all, they are still a distraction, because of how they cut off the periphery.  And they completely cut off some sound, as well as destroying directionality of most sounds.   But almost all rain gear has a hood.  Just let the hood hang, or, stuff it down your back-of-neck and have a funny puffy collar that results.  Even better than that, sew if you can, or ask someone else to.  If it is goretex or another nylon sort of fabric, just roll it up, tack a little velcro strap over it with a couple of strands of nylon button, upholstery or carpet thread that any sewing store has.  That will keep the hood down around the neck, out of the way.  That’s only if you are really into spiffing it up.  

Not using a hood will leave you with with a wet, cold head. And with that, you’d get cold fast.  So, wear a hat.  

If you really need sound without the distortion that a brim of any kind can bring, there’s nothing wrong with a simple knit watch cap.  That, you could wear off or over your ears.  It is porous, so if it’s really cold, you can pull it down and still get some real sound.  I prefer (knit) acrylic, which happens to be the cheap stuff, just a few bucks, because wool is scratchy.  Acrylic hats are plenty warm, even if they get wet if you are active at all.  If it get’s sopping wet, just take it off and squeezed it out, or give it a few flings to dislodge the water, and put it back on.   In the woods, this is what I’d wear.  

But in town, I have found that the best, most expedient hat is a military surplus boonie hat.  There are two reasons why I like boonie hats.  The first is that it doesn’t have a large brim, like only an inch and a half, but the brim goes all the way around.  That means that any substantial water will not go right down your collar.  And the second reason is this.  While this hat has shape, and basically keeps it no matter what because of how it is sewn into shape, you can still cram it wet or dry into a pocket, and then pull it out to use it anytime.  

Some folks in the military have called this a “go to hell hat”, because they can go to (and put their hat also) through hell, and back, and it keeps working.  About the brim - this is mostly why I like this hat.  The brim isn’t so big that it just flops around.  And because it is a cotton hat and the brim isn’t so big, rain doesn’t bang on it loudly.  Also, not being too big, it doesn’t do a lot of distorting of sound bounce from the surroundings.

Just a quick caveat here.  We folks with wilderness skills say never, never, NEVER wear cotton in the outdoors if you intend to stay warm.  I will however say that strangely, I have rarely felt a cold head with one of these hats.  Perhaps it is because the air pocket on top of the head keeps the cotton fabric off of the scalp.  So in that case, there’s no direct evaporation on the scalp other than the brim contact on your “hatband” area itself.  

If you buy one of these, you can get it an an army navy surplus type place, or go online to a anyone selling surplus.  The brand is called “Propper” (the spelling is correct).   There are two models.  I prefer the all cotton hat (called regular), not the 50-50 blend, which is called “wide brim”.  The blend has a slightly larger brim, which is stiffer, and so will be slightly louder.  But even that one isn’t so bad if you have to choose it.  If you are in freezing cold territory, this may be slightly warmer, so do your own choosing on this.   These hats come with a draw string for under the chin, but you can cinch it around the back of the head also, which is how I wear mine.  You may want to get a little push button toggle - that little spring loaded button goodie that you pull up drawstrings on rain gear with.  Then your hat really won’t come off in a serious wind.  

Propper hats are the spec hats that all branches of military wear.  You may or may not want to wear camouflage type patterns.  If you care or are "wardrobe conscious", they also come it solid tan, solid navy blue, and solid black.  I wear the black ones because they don’t look much like anything, and seem to pass in all circumstances without looking like I was trying to wear surplus goods.   

Goretex is fantastic stuff, but it is pricey.  REI has basic models for about 130 bucks and up.  But you can get it without all that spiff for fifty bucks at Big Five sporting goods.  There are so many breathable water fabrics out there now, and most are perfectly fine for the purpose.  If money is an issue, check out “frog togs”.  You might get that stuff for twenty bucks.  But for this brand, double check size first with the vendor.  American “super sizing” is an amazing thing.  You might be a medium like me, a reasonably little guy.  But medium might resemble what we know as 2XL!  So talk first about your body size if you are buying frog togs.  

Hey there’s nothing wrong with a cheap rain poncho.  Europeans and others have been using them forever.  You can get them to accommodate the back hump presented by your daypack or even larger.  

Last, remember something here that if you watched enough TV you’d believe it is weather’s job to make you sick, then kill you outright.  It’s just water, and skin is waterproof!  Have some fun even if you get pittled on a little!  If you think you’ll get cold, then on your main body, don’t wear cotton!  If that’s all you have, just get a polypropylene or olefin, or polyester under layer and you’ll be fine.  The point is to get the cotton off your skin itself, because from water soaking and evaporation that cotton does, you’d be warmer with no clothes at all than wearing cotton on your skin.  I only mention this so that if you really want to pay attention to your training, this might help you be much more warmly comfortable without considerations if there’s rain.  

Hope this helps.

Cheers!
Peter

On Sep 20, 2018, at 3:59 PM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:

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>   1. Re: Rain gear (Tracy Carcione)
>   2. Dogster (Tracy Carcione)
>   3. Re: FHA question (Melissa Allman)
>   4. Re: Dogster (The Pawpower Pack)
>   5. Re: FHA question (nellie at culodge.com)
>   6. Re: FHA question (nellie at culodge.com)
>   7. Re: FHA question (Julie Johnson)
>   8. Gala with one course under blindfold (Tracy Carcione)
>   9. Re: FHA question (Danielle Ledet)
>  10. Re: FHA question (Cindy Ray)
>  11. Re: Gala with one course under blindfold (The Pawpower Pack)
>  12. Re: FHA question (Danielle Ledet)
>  13. Re: Gala with one course under blindfold (David)
>  14. Re: Gala with one course under blindfold (Aleeha Dudley)
>  15. Re: FHA question (nellie at culodge.com)
>  16. Re: FHA question (The Pawpower Pack)
>  17. Re: Gala with one course under blindfold (Tara Briggs)
>  18. Re: FHA question (Julie Johnson)
>  19. Re: Gala with one course under blindfold (Sheila)
>  20. Re: FHA question (nellie at culodge.com)
>  21. Re: FHA question (d m gina)
>  22. Re: FHA question (Julie Johnson)
>  23. Re: FHA question (nellie at culodge.com)
>  24. Re: Gala with one course under blindfold (Michael Hingson)
>  25. Re: Gala with one course under blindfold (Nancy VanderBrink)
>  26. Re: Gala with one course under blindfold (Nancy VanderBrink)
>  27. Re: FHA question (Julie Johnson)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 08:32:33 -0400
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Rain gear
> Message-ID: <006901d450de$01bc0c90$053425b0$@access.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi Tara.
> I bought a rain poncho at LL Bean.  It covers my whole body down to my feet, and doesn't restrict my movements in any way.  It has a hood, but I hate hoods because they block my ears.  I bought a hat with a wide brim and a strap to keep it on on windy days.  I bought it in an outdoor store in Montana.  LL Bean has similar hats, but they're pricier.
> 
> If you end up borrowing a poncho from TSE, and you get one with a bit of a hole at the bottom, that could be a Krokus decoration, added before I realized what a ridiculous chewing puppy he was at the time.
> Tracy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 10:15 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Tara Briggs
> Subject: [NAGDU] Rain gear
> 
> OK everyone! I freely admit this is a really dumb question but here goes. I?m going to the seeing eye and I?ve been told to get rain gear. Looking at the next ten-day forecast it looks like it will rain. What exactly should I get? I live in Utah and it?s pretty dry the vast majority of the time here. So any suggestions of what to get and where to get it would be beyond welcome! Thanks everyone!
> 
> 
> TaraSent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:03:39 -0400
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Dogster
> Message-ID: <009d01d450ea$bb7f2bb0$327d8310$@access.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> I was looking around Newsline, and I came across a magazine called Dogster.
> The current issue has articles about homemade and/or natural remedies for
> common dog issues like dry skin or ear cleaning, which I've seen discussed
> here.  There was also an article about environmentally-friendly dog
> products.
> 
> And there just happened to be an article about the Airdale terrier, a breed
> I've long felt would be an interesting candidate for owner-training.  The
> article says they're good workers, especially in tasks requiring independent
> decision-making.  It also said handler requests are subjected to executive
> review before being accepted or rejected, which I've heard people here say
> about poodles and shepherds.
> 
> It would be a challenge, convincing a dog like that that what I want is also
> what he wants, but it would be interesting, and could result in a great city
> guide.
> 
> Tracy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:11:43 -0400
> From: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'"	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <68528A425613C841AF38DE1B877F1963022061B08851 at TSEMTEXCH01>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> One thing to remember is that under the Fair Housing Act, tenants are allowed to ask to have an emotional support animal as a reasonable accommodation for their disability and it does not necessarily have to be a dog. Please note I am talking specifically about the Fair Housing Act here.  There is unfortunately a cottage industry that has made it pretty easy for people to get "certifications" for their animals on line and caused many people to be misled into believing they are required to have these "certifications." In a climate where confusion sometimes seems to prevail, I think it's important to always bring ourselves back to the behavior of the animal in question.
> 
> Melissa R. Allman
> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations
> The Seeing Eye, Inc.
> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ?07963-0375 (mail)
> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ?07960-3412 (deliveries)
> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,???? Fax:? 973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org??
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:00 AM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU
> Cc: Dan Weiner
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would have thought.? I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act all? official about it and show certification or supposed certification to get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is, rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another, right?--smile
> 
> 
> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going to wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Jordan,
>>> 
>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that your
>>> landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about him, they
>>> cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for an additional
>>> monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however get/ask/require any
>>> damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or not) if there are any
>>> damages to the property.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013 concerning
>>> assistance animals. It applies to both private and public housing. Below is
>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that Belto
>>> is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>> 
>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to provide
>>> documentation showing the disability or disability-related need for an
>>> assistance animal if the disability or disability-related need is readily
>>> apparent or already known to the provider. For example, persons who are
>>> blind or have low vision may not be asked to provide documentation of their
>>> disability or their disability-related need for a guide dog."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan Gallacher
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be asking
>>> for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:38:18 -0500
> From: The Pawpower Pack <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Dogster
> Message-ID: <764DF3A2-0CD2-471D-8659-CB71EE544082 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
> 
> That sounds like a neat magazine. 
> As someone who is training another kind of terrior-- an American Staffordshire terrior, mix... I can tell you that yes! The executive committee thing is for real... it's like working a border collie minus the emotional pyrotechnics.  And when they want something, they really, really, are going to go after it guns blazing. So you have to find a way to make them want what you want and to interupt them when they fixate on things that you don't want. They are amazing clicker dogs, and I find it's rewarding and nobody snuggles like a bulldog so in my case it's super worth it. Besides, Soleil loves her... So  I guess I'm stuck, lol. 
> Working a terrior is super different than a retriever, but it's helping me grow as a trainer. 
> 
> 
> Rox and the kitchen Bitches: 
> Soleil, Rowan pawpower4me at gmail.com  
> 
>> On Sep 20, 2018, at 9:03 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I was looking around Newsline, and I came across a magazine called Dogster.
>> The current issue has articles about homemade and/or natural remedies for
>> common dog issues like dry skin or ear cleaning, which I've seen discussed
>> here.  There was also an article about environmentally-friendly dog
>> products.
>> 
>> And there just happened to be an article about the Airdale terrier, a breed
>> I've long felt would be an interesting candidate for owner-training.  The
>> article says they're good workers, especially in tasks requiring independent
>> decision-making.  It also said handler requests are subjected to executive
>> review before being accepted or rejected, which I've heard people here say
>> about poodles and shepherds.
>> 
>> It would be a challenge, convincing a dog like that that what I want is also
>> what he wants, but it would be interesting, and could result in a great city
>> guide.
>> 
>> Tracy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pawpower4me%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:05:35 -0500
> From: <nellie at culodge.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <01cd01d450f3$62881ef0$27985cd0$@culodge.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Hi again Jordan,
> 
> When your landlord is asking about Belto is it verbal?  You need to try and
> get an email or a text message so it is not just your word against his.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> -Janell
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jordan Gallacher via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 10:31 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jordan Gallacher <jordangandbelto at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going to wait
> for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
> Jordan
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Jordan,
>> 
>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that 
>> your landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about 
>> him, they cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for 
>> an additional monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however 
>> get/ask/require any damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or 
>> not) if there are any damages to the property.
>> 
>> Hope this helps, Janell
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman via 
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013 
>> concerning assistance animals. It applies to both private and public 
>> housing. Below is some pertinent language from the memo I think you will
> find helpful.
>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that 
>> Belto is a service animal. See below and attached:
>> 
>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to 
>> provide documentation showing the disability or disability-related 
>> need for an assistance animal if the disability or disability-related 
>> need is readily apparent or already known to the provider. For 
>> example, persons who are blind or have low vision may not be asked to 
>> provide documentation of their disability or their disability-related need
> for a guide dog."
>> 
>> 
>> Melissa R. Allman
>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org  
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be 
>> asking for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>> Thanks,
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye
>> .org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> NAGDU:
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>> mail.com
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:18:11 -0500
> From: <nellie at culodge.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <01d401d450f5$2542a040$6fc7e0c0$@culodge.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> 
> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything about it.
> 
> Just food for thought...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is, rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another, right?--smile
> 
> 
> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going to wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Jordan,
>>> 
>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that your
>>> landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about him, they
>>> cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for an additional
>>> monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however get/ask/require any
>>> damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or not) if there are any
>>> damages to the property.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013 concerning
>>> assistance animals. It applies to both private and public housing. Below is
>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that Belto
>>> is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>> 
>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to provide
>>> documentation showing the disability or disability-related need for an
>>> assistance animal if the disability or disability-related need is readily
>>> apparent or already known to the provider. For example, persons who are
>>> blind or have low vision may not be asked to provide documentation of their
>>> disability or their disability-related need for a guide dog."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan Gallacher
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be asking
>>> for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 12:12:46 -0500
> From: "Julie Johnson" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <25C981D4933D4E6DB9EA20108AA82D5C at JuliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have 
> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
> 
> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue, 
> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those 
> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us 
> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in 
> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had 
> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now 
> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in 
> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't 
> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I 
> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals 
> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything 
> about it.
> 
> Just food for thought...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with 
> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a 
> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused 
> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got 
> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he 
> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or 
> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would 
> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains 
> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act 
> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to 
> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for 
> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and 
> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is, 
> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another, 
> right?--smile
> 
> 
> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going to 
>> wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Jordan,
>>> 
>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that your
>>> landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about him, 
>>> they
>>> cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for an additional
>>> monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however get/ask/require any
>>> damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or not) if there are any
>>> damages to the property.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman via 
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013 
>>> concerning
>>> assistance animals. It applies to both private and public housing. Below 
>>> is
>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that 
>>> Belto
>>> is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>> 
>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to provide
>>> documentation showing the disability or disability-related need for an
>>> assistance animal if the disability or disability-related need is readily
>>> apparent or already known to the provider. For example, persons who are
>>> blind or have low vision may not be asked to provide documentation of 
>>> their
>>> disability or their disability-related need for a guide dog."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>> Gallacher
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be asking
>>> for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:18:47 -0400
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> Message-ID: <017301d4510e$5f8e72b0$1eab5810$@access.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> As an occasional donor to GDB, I just received an invitation to their annual
> auction/gala.  Auctions, puppies, fine wine, and fine food, with "one course
> under blindfold".  I was fine with the whole thing, until I got to the
> blindfold bit.  What can it possibly teach patrons?  That, for blind people,
> eating is a clumsy, messy business?  Oh, those poor blind people.
> 
> I'm of a mind to write to the fundraising department and make my feelings
> known on the subject.
> 
> Or am I just being over-sensitive?  I rather think not, but would be
> interested in other opinions.
> 
> Tracy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:22:35 -0500
> From: Danielle Ledet <singingmywayin at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAMxXqESJG17tq8oW1nmx-WiTCvq9MEO_Hbt9RzSao9CMEHa8Hw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> My roomate brought  a dong in here, and she wants to get out of paying
> the pet deposit and monthly fee by declaring her a ESA dog. She pissed
> me off when she said this. The dog barks and growls at me for no
> reason. It is either a hound or pit bull mix.
> 
> On 9/20/18, Julie Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have
>> 
>> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
>> 
>> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue,
>> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those
>> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
>> 
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Janell via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us
>> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in
>> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had
>> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now
>> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in
>> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't
>> 
>> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I
>> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals
>> 
>> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything
>> about it.
>> 
>> Just food for thought...
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
>> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with
>> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a
>> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused
>> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got
>> 
>> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he
>> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
>> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would
>> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains
>> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
>> 
>> 
>> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act
>> 
>> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to
>> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for
>> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and
>> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is,
>> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
>> 
>> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another,
>> 
>> right?--smile
>> 
>> 
>> Dan the man and Parker the nut
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going to
>>> wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Jordan,
>>>> 
>>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that your
>>>> landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about him,
>>>> they
>>>> cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for an additional
>>>> monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however get/ask/require any
>>>> damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or not) if there are any
>>>> damages to the property.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman via
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013
>>>> concerning
>>>> assistance animals. It applies to both private and public housing. Below
>>>> 
>>>> is
>>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that
>>>> Belto
>>>> is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>>> 
>>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to
>>>> provide
>>>> documentation showing the disability or disability-related need for an
>>>> assistance animal if the disability or disability-related need is
>>>> readily
>>>> apparent or already known to the provider. For example, persons who are
>>>> blind or have low vision may not be asked to provide documentation of
>>>> their
>>>> disability or their disability-related need for a guide dog."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye,
>>>> Inc.
>>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>>> Gallacher
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>>> 
>>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be
>>>> asking
>>>> for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jordan
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
>> 
>> 
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
>> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/singingmywayin%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,
> compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and
> tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in your life you will
> have been all of these.
> George Washington Carver
> Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:28:55 -0500
> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <02ff01d4510f$ca458520$5ed08f60$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Well, you roommate isn't even subtle. You know plenty about if she should or
> shouldn't. Tell her that you know the dog is not an ESA and that the dog is
> hostile to you.
> Cindy Lou
> cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Danielle Ledet via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 1:23 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Danielle Ledet <singingmywayin at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> My roomate brought  a dong in here, and she wants to get out of paying the
> pet deposit and monthly fee by declaring her a ESA dog. She pissed  me off
> when she said this. The dog barks and growls at me for no reason. It is
> either a hound or pit bull mix.
> 
> On 9/20/18, Julie Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she 
>> doesn't have
>> 
>> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
>> 
>> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue,
>> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those
>> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
>> 
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com 
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall 
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?stor
>> eid=1916046>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Janell via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided 
>> us with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she 
>> is in dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have 
>> had complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is 
>> gone.  Now she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked 
>> up the laws in Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one 
>> ESA animal and we can't
>> 
>> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  
>> I fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA 
>> animals
>> 
>> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do 
>> anything about it.
>> 
>> Just food for thought...
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via 
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
>> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks 
>> with illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they 
>> buy a certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have 
>> indeed caused this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my 
>> area who literally got
>> 
>> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then 
>> he showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or 
>> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I 
>> would have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have 
>> the brains to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh
> well, ..
>> 
>> 
>> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service 
>> animals act
>> 
>> all  official about it and show certification or supposed 
>> certification to get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the 
>> uneducated public for asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though 
>> it's total ignorance and probably the first thing that comes in to 
>> their mind, the public that is, rather than anything based on misleading
> precedent.
>> 
>> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be 
>> another,
>> 
>> right?--smile
>> 
>> 
>> Dan the man and Parker the nut
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going 
>>> to wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Jordan,
>>>> 
>>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that 
>>>> your landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask 
>>>> about him, they cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they 
>>>> ask for an additional monthly fee for a service animal.  They can 
>>>> however get/ask/require any damages (if any) from any animal 
>>>> (service dog or not) if there are any damages to the property.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman 
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013 
>>>> concerning assistance animals. It applies to both private and public 
>>>> housing. Below
>>>> 
>>>> is
>>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove 
>>>> that Belto is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>>> 
>>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to 
>>>> provide documentation showing the disability or disability-related 
>>>> need for an assistance animal if the disability or 
>>>> disability-related need is readily apparent or already known to the 
>>>> provider. For example, persons who are blind or have low vision may 
>>>> not be asked to provide documentation of their disability or their 
>>>> disability-related need for a guide dog."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, 
>>>> Inc.
>>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>>> 
>>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be 
>>>> asking for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jordan
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeinge
>>>> ye.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%4
>>>> 0gmail.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cn
>>> c.net
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.co
>> m
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.co
>> m
>> 
>> 
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 
>> 07/04/18 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/singingmywayin%40gm
>> ail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,
> compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of
> the weak and strong. Because someday in your life you will have been all of
> these.
> George Washington Carver
> Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:30:58 -0500
> From: The Pawpower Pack <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> Message-ID: <39C78D78-0599-41BB-90FC-FAF870BF98B2 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
> 
> Tracy, 
> no, I totally agree with you and was just at a conference for professionals working with Deafblind children and they had a similar  cooking activity, and I was cringing! Doing this kind of thing only makes people pity me more from my experience.  
> 
> Rox and the kitchen Bitches: 
> Soleil, Rowan pawpower4me at gmail.com  
> 
>> On Sep 20, 2018, at 1:18 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> As an occasional donor to GDB, I just received an invitation to their annual
>> auction/gala.  Auctions, puppies, fine wine, and fine food, with "one course
>> under blindfold".  I was fine with the whole thing, until I got to the
>> blindfold bit.  What can it possibly teach patrons?  That, for blind people,
>> eating is a clumsy, messy business?  Oh, those poor blind people.
>> 
>> I'm of a mind to write to the fundraising department and make my feelings
>> known on the subject.
>> 
>> Or am I just being over-sensitive?  I rather think not, but would be
>> interested in other opinions.
>> 
>> Tracy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pawpower4me%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:31:15 -0500
> From: Danielle Ledet <singingmywayin at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAMxXqESYxUxtnWwXGRZjT8W4gh1bVKC7z4wXc6vkmz9heekD4Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> She knows that. I did address that with her.
> 
> On 9/20/18, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Well, you roommate isn't even subtle. You know plenty about if she should
>> or
>> shouldn't. Tell her that you know the dog is not an ESA and that the dog is
>> hostile to you.
>> Cindy Lou
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Danielle Ledet via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 1:23 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Danielle Ledet <singingmywayin at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> My roomate brought  a dong in here, and she wants to get out of paying the
>> pet deposit and monthly fee by declaring her a ESA dog. She pissed  me off
>> when she said this. The dog barks and growls at me for no reason. It is
>> either a hound or pit bull mix.
>> 
>> On 9/20/18, Julie Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she
>>> doesn't have
>>> 
>>> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
>>> 
>>> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue,
>>> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those
>>> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
>>> 
>>> Julie
>>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?stor
>>> eid=1916046>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Janell via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided
>>> us with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she
>>> is in dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have
>>> had complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is
>>> gone.  Now she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked
>>> up the laws in Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one
>>> ESA animal and we can't
>>> 
>>> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.
>>> I fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA
>>> animals
>>> 
>>> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do
>>> anything about it.
>>> 
>>> Just food for thought...
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
>>> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks
>>> with illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they
>>> buy a certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have
>>> indeed caused this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my
>>> area who literally got
>>> 
>>> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then
>>> he showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
>>> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I
>>> would have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have
>>> the brains to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone,
>>> oh
>> well, ..
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service
>>> animals act
>>> 
>>> all  official about it and show certification or supposed
>>> certification to get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the
>>> uneducated public for asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though
>>> it's total ignorance and probably the first thing that comes in to
>>> their mind, the public that is, rather than anything based on misleading
>> precedent.
>>> 
>>> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be
>>> another,
>>> 
>>> right?--smile
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dan the man and Parker the nut
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going
>>>> to wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>>>> Jordan
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello Jordan,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that
>>>>> your landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask
>>>>> about him, they cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they
>>>>> ask for an additional monthly fee for a service animal.  They can
>>>>> however get/ask/require any damages (if any) from any animal
>>>>> (service dog or not) if there are any damages to the property.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman
>>>>> via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013
>>>>> concerning assistance animals. It applies to both private and public
>>>>> housing. Below
>>>>> 
>>>>> is
>>>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove
>>>>> that Belto is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>>>> 
>>>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to
>>>>> provide documentation showing the disability or disability-related
>>>>> need for an assistance animal if the disability or
>>>>> disability-related need is readily apparent or already known to the
>>>>> provider. For example, persons who are blind or have low vision may
>>>>> not be asked to provide documentation of their disability or their
>>>>> disability-related need for a guide dog."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye,
>>>>> Inc.
>>>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be
>>>>> asking for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jordan
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeinge
>>>>> ye.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%4
>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cn
>>>> c.net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.co
>>> m
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.co
>>> m
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date:
>>> 07/04/18 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/singingmywayin%40gm
>>> ail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,
>> compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of
>> the weak and strong. Because someday in your life you will have been all of
>> these.
>> George Washington Carver
>> Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/singingmywayin%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,
> compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and
> tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in your life you will
> have been all of these.
> George Washington Carver
> Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:32:00 -0400
> From: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> Message-ID: <1a09f19a-bb66-56b8-faad-b29a474f2ea0 at bakerinet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> You are not being oversensitive, Tracy.
> 
> This is the same demeaning thing that the FFB does with Dining in the 
> Dark.? In my opinion, it exploitive and demeaning.
> 
> *David in Clearwater, FL*
> *david at bakerinet.com*
> On 9/20/2018 2:18 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
>> Or am I just being over-sensitive?  I rather think not, but would be
>> interested in other opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:39:30 -0500
> From: Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> Message-ID: <5CDE4CDE-BA78-4C9E-972A-D92D6834F86B at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
> 
> This just goes along with all those other blindness simulations, which are worthless if proper training in the skills of blindness is not provided. You are not overreacting, that makes me cringe. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 20, 2018, at 1:32 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> You are not being oversensitive, Tracy.
>> 
>> This is the same demeaning thing that the FFB does with Dining in the Dark.  In my opinion, it exploitive and demeaning.
>> 
>> *David in Clearwater, FL*
>> *david at bakerinet.com*
>>> On 9/20/2018 2:18 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Or am I just being over-sensitive?  I rather think not, but would be
>>> interested in other opinions.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 15
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:45:02 -0500
> From: <nellie at culodge.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <021501d4511a$6c6e6240$454b26c0$@culodge.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> I disagree Julie,
> 
> Are you saying she only has anxiety/stress when she is at home?  I figured I
> would get some backlash from my email when my only point was to tell you of
> the ESA laws regarding ESA animals.  Thanks for not disappointing.
> Naturally I know that any animal(service animal or not) still have to abide
> by the same rules as any other animal.  
> 
> If ESA's are  in your words "only for at home" then why in the world are
> they everywhere... stores, air ports, businesses etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have
> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
> 
> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue, 
> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those 
> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us
> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in
> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had
> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now
> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in
> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't
> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I
> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals
> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything
> about it.
> 
> Just food for thought...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with
> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a
> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused
> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got
> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he
> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would
> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains
> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act
> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to
> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for
> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and
> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is,
> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another,
> right?--smile
> 
> 
> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going to 
>> wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Jordan,
>>> 
>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that your
>>> landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about him, 
>>> they
>>> cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for an additional
>>> monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however get/ask/require any
>>> damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or not) if there are any
>>> damages to the property.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman via 
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013 
>>> concerning
>>> assistance animals. It applies to both private and public housing. Below 
>>> is
>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that 
>>> Belto
>>> is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>> 
>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to provide
>>> documentation showing the disability or disability-related need for an
>>> assistance animal if the disability or disability-related need is readily
>>> apparent or already known to the provider. For example, persons who are
>>> blind or have low vision may not be asked to provide documentation of 
>>> their
>>> disability or their disability-related need for a guide dog."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>> Gallacher
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be asking
>>> for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.c
> om
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:35:47 -0500
> From: The Pawpower Pack <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <7154B05C-7703-4FFA-B9EF-F1545BF84388 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
> 
> Hi Janell, 
> Legally speaking, the only 2 laws that give provisions for ESA's are the FHA, and the ACAA, so yes someone can have their ESA in their living space if said living space meets certain legal requirements. They can also have their ESA's in airports and on airplanes as per the ACAA.  Whether someone has anxiety in public or not is not relevant.  If someone has an ESA in a place of public accommodation, and if said place of public accommodation is not pet friendly, then the person can be asked to remove their dog. 
> 
> Either way, the barking has to be super frustrating and I'm wondering if it can be dealt with just like any regular pet's noise? 
> 
> 
> Rox and the kitchen Bitches: 
> Soleil, Rowan pawpower4me at gmail.com  
> 
>> On Sep 20, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I disagree Julie,
>> 
>> Are you saying she only has anxiety/stress when she is at home?  I figured I
>> would get some backlash from my email when my only point was to tell you of
>> the ESA laws regarding ESA animals.  Thanks for not disappointing.
>> Naturally I know that any animal(service animal or not) still have to abide
>> by the same rules as any other animal.  
>> 
>> If ESA's are  in your words "only for at home" then why in the world are
>> they everywhere... stores, air ports, businesses etc.?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:13 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have
>> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
>> 
>> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue, 
>> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those 
>> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
>> 
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
>> 16046>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Janell via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us
>> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in
>> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had
>> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now
>> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in
>> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't
>> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I
>> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals
>> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything
>> about it.
>> 
>> Just food for thought...
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
>> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>> 
>> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with
>> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a
>> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused
>> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got
>> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he
>> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
>> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would
>> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains
>> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
>> 
>> 
>> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act
>> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to
>> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for
>> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and
>> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is,
>> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
>> 
>> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another,
>> right?--smile
>> 
>> 
>> Dan the man and Parker the nut
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going to 
>>> wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Jordan,
>>>> 
>>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that your
>>>> landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about him, 
>>>> they
>>>> cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for an additional
>>>> monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however get/ask/require any
>>>> damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or not) if there are any
>>>> damages to the property.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman via 
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013 
>>>> concerning
>>>> assistance animals. It applies to both private and public housing. Below 
>>>> is
>>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that 
>>>> Belto
>>>> is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>>> 
>>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to provide
>>>> documentation showing the disability or disability-related need for an
>>>> assistance animal if the disability or disability-related need is readily
>>>> apparent or already known to the provider. For example, persons who are
>>>> blind or have low vision may not be asked to provide documentation of 
>>>> their
>>>> disability or their disability-related need for a guide dog."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>>> Gallacher
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>>> 
>>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be asking
>>>> for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jordan
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> 
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> 
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.c
>> om
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
>> 
>> 
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pawpower4me%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:32:12 -0600
> From: Tara Briggs <thflute at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> Message-ID: <91B2AAA6-00FE-4A31-AE4B-B8D114CC9BA2 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
> 
> Hi Tracy! I do not think you were being overly sensitive at all!! I think that is a very inappropriate fundraiser I hate disability simulations unless they come along with education. There are also apparently studies to back you up. If anybody has more information on that pass it on but it is my understanding that they have done studies where if people simply simulate blindness  for a while their fears of blindness and their lack of understanding increases. I think it is Apsley disgraceful that a guide  dog school would do this!
> Tara
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 20, 2018, at 12:39 PM, Aleeha Dudley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> This just goes along with all those other blindness simulations, which are worthless if proper training in the skills of blindness is not provided. You are not overreacting, that makes me cringe. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 20, 2018, at 1:32 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> You are not being oversensitive, Tracy.
>>> 
>>> This is the same demeaning thing that the FFB does with Dining in the Dark.  In my opinion, it exploitive and demeaning.
>>> 
>>> *David in Clearwater, FL*
>>> *david at bakerinet.com*
>>>> On 9/20/2018 2:18 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> Or am I just being over-sensitive?  I rather think not, but would be
>>>> interested in other opinions.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/thflute%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 18
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 16:39:55 -0500
> From: "Julie Johnson" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <1ECD4EFDD9B1443CB125BBCE99C13693 at JuliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> Glad I could make your day!
> 
> No, of course I'm not saying she doesn't have anxiety when she leaves her 
> home.  What I am saying is that ESA's are for home only, so she is doing the 
> legal thing.
> 
> So many people complain about people abusing the ESA laws and taking their 
> untrained dogs in public.  Here's a woman who is doing the right and legal 
> thing and leaving her ESA at home, but still the complaints roll in.
> 
> Blind people aren't the only folks who can benefit from dogs.  It bothers me 
> greatly that other uses that are legally allowed, are summarily dismissed as 
> being categorically fraudulent.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 2:45 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I disagree Julie,
> 
> Are you saying she only has anxiety/stress when she is at home?  I figured I
> would get some backlash from my email when my only point was to tell you of
> the ESA laws regarding ESA animals.  Thanks for not disappointing.
> Naturally I know that any animal(service animal or not) still have to abide
> by the same rules as any other animal.
> 
> If ESA's are  in your words "only for at home" then why in the world are
> they everywhere... stores, air ports, businesses etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have
> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
> 
> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue,
> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those
> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us
> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in
> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had
> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now
> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in
> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't
> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I
> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals
> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything
> about it.
> 
> Just food for thought...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with
> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a
> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused
> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got
> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he
> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would
> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains
> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act
> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to
> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for
> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and
> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is,
> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another,
> right?--smile
> 
> 
> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going to
>> wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Jordan,
>>> 
>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that your
>>> landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about him,
>>> they
>>> cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for an additional
>>> monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however get/ask/require any
>>> damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or not) if there are any
>>> damages to the property.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman via
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013
>>> concerning
>>> assistance animals. It applies to both private and public housing. Below
>>> is
>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that
>>> Belto
>>> is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>> 
>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to provide
>>> documentation showing the disability or disability-related need for an
>>> assistance animal if the disability or disability-related need is readily
>>> apparent or already known to the provider. For example, persons who are
>>> blind or have low vision may not be asked to provide documentation of
>>> their
>>> disability or their disability-related need for a guide dog."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>> Gallacher
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be asking
>>> for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.c
> om
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 19
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:49:47 -0600
> From: Sheila <sheila.leigland at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> Message-ID: <002601d4512b$dab47490$901d5db0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Hi, you are not being overly sensitive. I know that fund raisers around here
> have been similar and they don't help at all.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:19 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> 
> As an occasional donor to GDB, I just received an invitation to their annual
> auction/gala.  Auctions, puppies, fine wine, and fine food, with "one course
> under blindfold".  I was fine with the whole thing, until I got to the
> blindfold bit.  What can it possibly teach patrons?  That, for blind people,
> eating is a clumsy, messy business?  Oh, those poor blind people.
> 
> I'm of a mind to write to the fundraising department and make my feelings
> known on the subject.
> 
> Or am I just being over-sensitive?  I rather think not, but would be
> interested in other opinions.
> 
> Tracy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sheila.leigland%40gmail.c
> om
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 20
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 16:59:02 -0500
> From: <nellie at culodge.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <031f01d4512d$24966040$6dc320c0$@culodge.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Why are you saying that ESA's are only for home only?  That is completely
> preposterous!!!!   Again, if home use is "the only" reason they have an ESA
> animal, then why are they taking them virtually everywhere?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> Glad I could make your day!
> 
> No, of course I'm not saying she doesn't have anxiety when she leaves her
> home.  What I am saying is that ESA's are for home only, so she is doing the
> legal thing.
> 
> So many people complain about people abusing the ESA laws and taking their
> untrained dogs in public.  Here's a woman who is doing the right and legal
> thing and leaving her ESA at home, but still the complaints roll in.
> 
> Blind people aren't the only folks who can benefit from dogs.  It bothers me
> greatly that other uses that are legally allowed, are summarily dismissed as
> being categorically fraudulent.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 2:45 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I disagree Julie,
> 
> Are you saying she only has anxiety/stress when she is at home?  I figured I
> would get some backlash from my email when my only point was to tell you of
> the ESA laws regarding ESA animals.  Thanks for not disappointing.
> Naturally I know that any animal(service animal or not) still have to abide
> by the same rules as any other animal.
> 
> If ESA's are  in your words "only for at home" then why in the world are
> they everywhere... stores, air ports, businesses etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have
> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
> 
> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue,
> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those
> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us
> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in
> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had
> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now
> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in
> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't
> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I
> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals
> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything
> about it.
> 
> Just food for thought...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with
> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a
> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused
> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got
> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he
> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would
> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains
> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act
> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to
> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for
> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and
> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is,
> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another,
> right?--smile
> 
> 
> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going 
>> to wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Jordan,
>>> 
>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that 
>>> your landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about 
>>> him, they cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for 
>>> an additional monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however 
>>> get/ask/require any damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or 
>>> not) if there are any damages to the property.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman 
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013 
>>> concerning assistance animals. It applies to both private and public 
>>> housing. Below is some pertinent language from the memo I think you 
>>> will find helpful.
>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that 
>>> Belto is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>> 
>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to 
>>> provide documentation showing the disability or disability-related 
>>> need for an assistance animal if the disability or disability-related 
>>> need is readily apparent or already known to the provider. For 
>>> example, persons who are blind or have low vision may not be asked to 
>>> provide documentation of their disability or their disability-related 
>>> need for a guide dog."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be 
>>> asking for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.c
> om
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc
>> .net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 21
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:03:20 -0400
> From: d m gina <dmgina at mysero.net>
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <30e13a59.61fc.4540.9e24.27ea7470244f at samobile.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
> 
> I have a question on behalf of a dog that went shopping in pennies.
> The owner did have set dog on leash, where the lady helping us waved 
> her hand to get the dogs not to meet.
> I didn't ask any questions.
> I wish it didn't make me so angry when I see a dog that I don't dare to 
> ask what it does for you
> Because I am sure not fare on my part, I feel the dog is just a pet.
> I probably will never know how it goes unless someone shares.
> Original message:
>> Glad I could make your day!
> 
>> No, of course I'm not saying she doesn't have anxiety when she leaves her
>> home.  What I am saying is that ESA's are for home only, so she is doing the
>> legal thing.
> 
>> So many people complain about people abusing the ESA laws and taking their
>> untrained dogs in public.  Here's a woman who is doing the right and legal
>> thing and leaving her ESA at home, but still the complaints roll in.
> 
>> Blind people aren't the only folks who can benefit from dogs.  It bothers me
>> greatly that other uses that are legally allowed, are summarily dismissed as
>> being categorically fraudulent.
> 
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Janell via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 2:45 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
>> I disagree Julie,
> 
>> Are you saying she only has anxiety/stress when she is at home?  I figured I
>> would get some backlash from my email when my only point was to tell you of
>> the ESA laws regarding ESA animals.  Thanks for not disappointing.
>> Naturally I know that any animal(service animal or not) still have to abide
>> by the same rules as any other animal.
> 
>> If ESA's are  in your words "only for at home" then why in the world are
>> they everywhere... stores, air ports, businesses etc.?
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:13 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
>> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have
>> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
> 
>> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue,
>> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those
>> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
> 
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
>> 16046>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Janell via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
>> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us
>> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in
>> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had
>> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now
>> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in
>> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't
>> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I
>> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals
>> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything
>> about it.
> 
>> Just food for thought...
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
>> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
>> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with
>> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a
>> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused
>> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got
>> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he
>> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
>> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would
>> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains
>> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
>> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act
>> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to
>> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for
>> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and
>> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is,
>> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
>> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another,
>> right?--smile
> 
> 
>> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
>> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going to
>>> wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>>> Jordan
> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
>>>> Hello Jordan,
> 
>>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that your
>>>> landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about him,
>>>> they
>>>> cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for an additional
>>>> monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however get/ask/require any
>>>> damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or not) if there are any
>>>> damages to the property.
> 
>>>> Hope this helps, Janell
> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman via
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
>>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013
>>>> concerning
>>>> assistance animals. It applies to both private and public housing. Below
>>>> is
>>>> some pertinent language from the memo I think you will find helpful.
>>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that
>>>> Belto
>>>> is a service animal. See below and attached:
> 
>>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to provide
>>>> documentation showing the disability or disability-related need for an
>>>> assistance animal if the disability or disability-related need is readily
>>>> apparent or already known to the provider. For example, persons who are
>>>> blind or have low vision may not be asked to provide documentation of
>>>> their
>>>> disability or their disability-related need for a guide dog."
> 
> 
>>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>>> Gallacher
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
>>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be asking
>>>> for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jordan
> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
> 
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
> 
> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
> 
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.c
>> om
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
>> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
>> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 
> 
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> 
> -- 
> --Dar
> skype: dmgina23
>  FB: dmgina
> www.twitter.com/dmgina
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 22
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:24:17 -0500
> From: "Julie Johnson" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <D7EB8D840D2A409CB6E6D8ABE4E54A52 at JuliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> You said you read the FHA.   Like Rox and others are trying to explain to 
> you.  Emotional support animals, ESA, are legally allowed under the Fair 
> Housing Act and currently the Air Carrier Access Act.  This means that 
> people can have untrained pets in their homes and on planes to provide 
> emotional support.  These animals do what they do by the fact of their 
> existence.  They are not individually trained to do any specific tasks.
> 
> If you want to take your dog into public places, grocery stores, banks, 
> doctor's offices etc, then your dog has to be individually trained to 
> mitigate your disability.  This includes cognitive and psychiatric 
> disabilities.  However as soon as the dog has received training to act 
> appropriately in public and perform disability related tasks for the 
> handler, it is not an ESA, it is a legitimate service dog.
> 
> I am saying that the particular woman you brought up is following the law by 
> not taking her ESA in public.   She finds other ways to deal with her health 
> related concerns, which is great.  Having a variety of coping strategies is 
> a good thing.  We encourage guide dog users to keep up with cane skills. 
> Folks with other types of disabilities also have different strategies 
> available to them.
> 
> There are certainly people who take their ESA's into public and that is a 
> problem.  I have never said having untrained and ill behaved dogs in public 
> isn't a problem.  These people are taking advantage of business owners lack 
> of understanding of the law.   There are loads of companies on the internet 
> that are promoting this bad behavior by providing unnecessary documentation, 
> which furthers the confusion.
> 
> More questions?  I'm happy to help you understand.  As a landlord it is 
> particularly important for you to understand the differences between the FHA 
> and ADA.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:59 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> Why are you saying that ESA's are only for home only?  That is completely
> preposterous!!!!   Again, if home use is "the only" reason they have an ESA
> animal, then why are they taking them virtually everywhere?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> Glad I could make your day!
> 
> No, of course I'm not saying she doesn't have anxiety when she leaves her
> home.  What I am saying is that ESA's are for home only, so she is doing the
> legal thing.
> 
> So many people complain about people abusing the ESA laws and taking their
> untrained dogs in public.  Here's a woman who is doing the right and legal
> thing and leaving her ESA at home, but still the complaints roll in.
> 
> Blind people aren't the only folks who can benefit from dogs.  It bothers me
> greatly that other uses that are legally allowed, are summarily dismissed as
> being categorically fraudulent.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 2:45 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I disagree Julie,
> 
> Are you saying she only has anxiety/stress when she is at home?  I figured I
> would get some backlash from my email when my only point was to tell you of
> the ESA laws regarding ESA animals.  Thanks for not disappointing.
> Naturally I know that any animal(service animal or not) still have to abide
> by the same rules as any other animal.
> 
> If ESA's are  in your words "only for at home" then why in the world are
> they everywhere... stores, air ports, businesses etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have
> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
> 
> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue,
> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those
> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us
> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in
> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had
> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now
> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in
> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't
> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I
> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals
> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything
> about it.
> 
> Just food for thought...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with
> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a
> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused
> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got
> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he
> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would
> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains
> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act
> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to
> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for
> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and
> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is,
> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another,
> right?--smile
> 
> 
> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going
>> to wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Jordan,
>>> 
>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that
>>> your landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about
>>> him, they cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for
>>> an additional monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however
>>> get/ask/require any damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or
>>> not) if there are any damages to the property.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013
>>> concerning assistance animals. It applies to both private and public
>>> housing. Below is some pertinent language from the memo I think you
>>> will find helpful.
>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that
>>> Belto is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>> 
>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to
>>> provide documentation showing the disability or disability-related
>>> need for an assistance animal if the disability or disability-related
>>> need is readily apparent or already known to the provider. For
>>> example, persons who are blind or have low vision may not be asked to
>>> provide documentation of their disability or their disability-related
>>> need for a guide dog."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be
>>> asking for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.c
> om
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc
>> .net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 23
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:41:20 -0500
> From: <nellie at culodge.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <000001d45133$0da84320$28f8c960$@culodge.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Julie, please understand me completely and 100%... I fully understand the
> HMA regulations as well as guide dog laws and I find it offensive that you
> say otherwise because you have differing opinions.  Again, for the third
> time, this dog is trained (according to my renter) her dog is highly trained
> and again, according to her it is necessary for her to have this dog as a
> companion because of her anxiety, yet she never has the dog with her.  I
> will not be bullied by your comments and I think we will just have to
> respectfully disagree.  You are certainly not going to change my mind and I
> am not going to change yours.  This is not the first disagreement we have
> had and I welcome your opinion and it does make for some interesting
> conversation.
> 
> -Janell
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 5:24 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> You said you read the FHA.   Like Rox and others are trying to explain to 
> you.  Emotional support animals, ESA, are legally allowed under the Fair
> Housing Act and currently the Air Carrier Access Act.  This means that
> people can have untrained pets in their homes and on planes to provide
> emotional support.  These animals do what they do by the fact of their
> existence.  They are not individually trained to do any specific tasks.
> 
> If you want to take your dog into public places, grocery stores, banks,
> doctor's offices etc, then your dog has to be individually trained to
> mitigate your disability.  This includes cognitive and psychiatric
> disabilities.  However as soon as the dog has received training to act
> appropriately in public and perform disability related tasks for the
> handler, it is not an ESA, it is a legitimate service dog.
> 
> I am saying that the particular woman you brought up is following the law by
> 
> not taking her ESA in public.   She finds other ways to deal with her health
> 
> related concerns, which is great.  Having a variety of coping strategies is
> a good thing.  We encourage guide dog users to keep up with cane skills. 
> Folks with other types of disabilities also have different strategies
> available to them.
> 
> There are certainly people who take their ESA's into public and that is a
> problem.  I have never said having untrained and ill behaved dogs in public
> isn't a problem.  These people are taking advantage of business owners lack 
> of understanding of the law.   There are loads of companies on the internet 
> that are promoting this bad behavior by providing unnecessary documentation,
> which furthers the confusion.
> 
> More questions?  I'm happy to help you understand.  As a landlord it is
> particularly important for you to understand the differences between the FHA
> and ADA.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:59 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> Why are you saying that ESA's are only for home only?  That is completely
> preposterous!!!!   Again, if home use is "the only" reason they have an ESA
> animal, then why are they taking them virtually everywhere?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> Glad I could make your day!
> 
> No, of course I'm not saying she doesn't have anxiety when she leaves her
> home.  What I am saying is that ESA's are for home only, so she is doing the
> legal thing.
> 
> So many people complain about people abusing the ESA laws and taking their
> untrained dogs in public.  Here's a woman who is doing the right and legal
> thing and leaving her ESA at home, but still the complaints roll in.
> 
> Blind people aren't the only folks who can benefit from dogs.  It bothers me
> greatly that other uses that are legally allowed, are summarily dismissed as
> being categorically fraudulent.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 2:45 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I disagree Julie,
> 
> Are you saying she only has anxiety/stress when she is at home?  I figured I
> would get some backlash from my email when my only point was to tell you of
> the ESA laws regarding ESA animals.  Thanks for not disappointing.
> Naturally I know that any animal(service animal or not) still have to abide
> by the same rules as any other animal.
> 
> If ESA's are  in your words "only for at home" then why in the world are
> they everywhere... stores, air ports, businesses etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have
> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
> 
> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue,
> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those
> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us
> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in
> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had
> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now
> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in
> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't
> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I
> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals
> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything
> about it.
> 
> Just food for thought...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with
> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a
> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused
> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got
> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he
> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would
> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains
> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act
> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to
> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for
> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and
> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is,
> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another,
> right?--smile
> 
> 
> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going 
>> to wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Jordan,
>>> 
>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that 
>>> your landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about 
>>> him, they cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for 
>>> an additional monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however 
>>> get/ask/require any damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or
>>> not) if there are any damages to the property.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman 
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013 
>>> concerning assistance animals. It applies to both private and public 
>>> housing. Below is some pertinent language from the memo I think you 
>>> will find helpful.
>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that 
>>> Belto is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>> 
>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to 
>>> provide documentation showing the disability or disability-related 
>>> need for an assistance animal if the disability or disability-related 
>>> need is readily apparent or already known to the provider. For 
>>> example, persons who are blind or have low vision may not be asked to 
>>> provide documentation of their disability or their disability-related 
>>> need for a guide dog."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be 
>>> asking for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.c
> om
>> _______________________________________________
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>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc
>> .net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/15297 - Release Date: 07/04/18
> Internal Virus Database is out of date. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 24
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:48:54 -0700
> From: "Michael Hingson" <mike at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "'Tracy Carcione'" <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> Message-ID: <02fb01d45134$1bd8cf90$538a6eb0$@michaelhingson.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Tracy,
> 
> You are not being overly sensitive. I just saw the same thing this morning.
> I think it is time for all GDB grads to voice our concern about this.
> So-called "dining in the dark" is paternalistic at best and such a move is
> grossly insensitive. 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 11:19 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> 
> As an occasional donor to GDB, I just received an invitation to their annual
> auction/gala.  Auctions, puppies, fine wine, and fine food, with "one course
> under blindfold".  I was fine with the whole thing, until I got to the
> blindfold bit.  What can it possibly teach patrons?  That, for blind people,
> eating is a clumsy, messy business?  Oh, those poor blind people.
> 
> I'm of a mind to write to the fundraising department and make my feelings
> known on the subject.
> 
> Or am I just being over-sensitive?  I rather think not, but would be
> interested in other opinions.
> 
> Tracy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhingson.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 25
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:54:45 +0000
> From: Nancy VanderBrink <vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> Message-ID:
> 	<DM5PR10MB20423E56154BBE69CB716569CE130 at DM5PR10MB2042.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> So, I kind of feel like if they provided some instruction by means of things like how to locate your glass without knocking it over or how to cut up your food without using your vision, I don?t think it would be so bad. That being said, I am afraid that it is going to turn into a messy affair that people are going to laugh about later. So I hope that it is not just a way of saying oh those poor blind people this is why they need our money kind of things.
> 
> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated using voice dictation
> Nancy Irwin
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 20, 2018, at 6:50 PM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Tracy,
> 
> You are not being overly sensitive. I just saw the same thing this morning.
> I think it is time for all GDB grads to voice our concern about this.
> So-called "dining in the dark" is paternalistic at best and such a move is
> grossly insensitive. 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 11:19 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> 
> As an occasional donor to GDB, I just received an invitation to their annual
> auction/gala.  Auctions, puppies, fine wine, and fine food, with "one course
> under blindfold".  I was fine with the whole thing, until I got to the
> blindfold bit.  What can it possibly teach patrons?  That, for blind people,
> eating is a clumsy, messy business?  Oh, those poor blind people.
> 
> I'm of a mind to write to the fundraising department and make my feelings
> known on the subject.
> 
> Or am I just being over-sensitive?  I rather think not, but would be
> interested in other opinions.
> 
> Tracy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhingson.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/vandyvanderbrink%40outlook.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 26
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:57:49 +0000
> From: Nancy VanderBrink <VandyVanderBrink at outlook.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> Message-ID:
> 	<DM5PR10MB204202B7A3031063A9348350CE130 at DM5PR10MB2042.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> I am studying to become a teacher a blind students and a couple of years ago and one of my classes we had a couple of days where we learned how to do various things on your blindfold. One of them was making a sandwich, the other was cutting things with a knife. Most of them had to do with food but also pouring liquids from one container to another things of that sort. That was actually really helpful. I have some vision but I have found that I am losing some vision so learning to do techniques under blindfold even for me was helpful. I do not Think that will be the purpose of the dinner however.
> 
> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated using voice dictation
> Nancy Irwin
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 20, 2018, at 6:55 PM, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> So, I kind of feel like if they provided some instruction by means of things like how to locate your glass without knocking it over or how to cut up your food without using your vision, I don?t think it would be so bad. That being said, I am afraid that it is going to turn into a messy affair that people are going to laugh about later. So I hope that it is not just a way of saying oh those poor blind people this is why they need our money kind of things.
> 
> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated using voice dictation
> Nancy Irwin
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 20, 2018, at 6:50 PM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Tracy,
> 
> You are not being overly sensitive. I just saw the same thing this morning.
> I think it is time for all GDB grads to voice our concern about this.
> So-called "dining in the dark" is paternalistic at best and such a move is
> grossly insensitive. 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 11:19 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Gala with one course under blindfold
> 
> As an occasional donor to GDB, I just received an invitation to their annual
> auction/gala.  Auctions, puppies, fine wine, and fine food, with "one course
> under blindfold".  I was fine with the whole thing, until I got to the
> blindfold bit.  What can it possibly teach patrons?  That, for blind people,
> eating is a clumsy, messy business?  Oh, those poor blind people.
> 
> I'm of a mind to write to the fundraising department and make my feelings
> known on the subject.
> 
> Or am I just being over-sensitive?  I rather think not, but would be
> interested in other opinions.
> 
> Tracy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhingson.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 27
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:58:37 -0500
> From: "Julie Johnson" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> Message-ID: <699F13F203134EFCBEF8280A2E09D8C6 at JuliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> I just went back and reread all your messages.  No where did you ever say 
> that the dog is trained.  You repeatedly called it an ESA.  I am trying to 
> understand you, sincerely and honestly, but all I have to go on are what you 
> are sharing and training was never in it.
> 
> I think I've been very polite.  Again, in my reread I saw no bullying.  You 
> asked questions or made comments and I responded with my thoughts.  That is 
> the point of an email list like this.  If you put it out there, people can 
> respond.  If Cindy feels I'm being a bully she  will tell me I'm sure.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 5:41 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> Julie, please understand me completely and 100%... I fully understand the
> HMA regulations as well as guide dog laws and I find it offensive that you
> say otherwise because you have differing opinions.  Again, for the third
> time, this dog is trained (according to my renter) her dog is highly trained
> and again, according to her it is necessary for her to have this dog as a
> companion because of her anxiety, yet she never has the dog with her.  I
> will not be bullied by your comments and I think we will just have to
> respectfully disagree.  You are certainly not going to change my mind and I
> am not going to change yours.  This is not the first disagreement we have
> had and I welcome your opinion and it does make for some interesting
> conversation.
> 
> -Janell
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 5:24 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> You said you read the FHA.   Like Rox and others are trying to explain to
> you.  Emotional support animals, ESA, are legally allowed under the Fair
> Housing Act and currently the Air Carrier Access Act.  This means that
> people can have untrained pets in their homes and on planes to provide
> emotional support.  These animals do what they do by the fact of their
> existence.  They are not individually trained to do any specific tasks.
> 
> If you want to take your dog into public places, grocery stores, banks,
> doctor's offices etc, then your dog has to be individually trained to
> mitigate your disability.  This includes cognitive and psychiatric
> disabilities.  However as soon as the dog has received training to act
> appropriately in public and perform disability related tasks for the
> handler, it is not an ESA, it is a legitimate service dog.
> 
> I am saying that the particular woman you brought up is following the law by
> 
> not taking her ESA in public.   She finds other ways to deal with her health
> 
> related concerns, which is great.  Having a variety of coping strategies is
> a good thing.  We encourage guide dog users to keep up with cane skills.
> Folks with other types of disabilities also have different strategies
> available to them.
> 
> There are certainly people who take their ESA's into public and that is a
> problem.  I have never said having untrained and ill behaved dogs in public
> isn't a problem.  These people are taking advantage of business owners lack
> of understanding of the law.   There are loads of companies on the internet
> that are promoting this bad behavior by providing unnecessary documentation,
> which furthers the confusion.
> 
> More questions?  I'm happy to help you understand.  As a landlord it is
> particularly important for you to understand the differences between the FHA
> and ADA.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:59 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> Why are you saying that ESA's are only for home only?  That is completely
> preposterous!!!!   Again, if home use is "the only" reason they have an ESA
> animal, then why are they taking them virtually everywhere?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> Glad I could make your day!
> 
> No, of course I'm not saying she doesn't have anxiety when she leaves her
> home.  What I am saying is that ESA's are for home only, so she is doing the
> legal thing.
> 
> So many people complain about people abusing the ESA laws and taking their
> untrained dogs in public.  Here's a woman who is doing the right and legal
> thing and leaving her ESA at home, but still the complaints roll in.
> 
> Blind people aren't the only folks who can benefit from dogs.  It bothers me
> greatly that other uses that are legally allowed, are summarily dismissed as
> being categorically fraudulent.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 2:45 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I disagree Julie,
> 
> Are you saying she only has anxiety/stress when she is at home?  I figured I
> would get some backlash from my email when my only point was to tell you of
> the ESA laws regarding ESA animals.  Thanks for not disappointing.
> Naturally I know that any animal(service animal or not) still have to abide
> by the same rules as any other animal.
> 
> If ESA's are  in your words "only for at home" then why in the world are
> they everywhere... stores, air ports, businesses etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> ESA's under the FHA are for in her home only. The fact that she doesn't have
> it with her when she is out and about is what should be happening.
> 
> I would think the barking should be handled like any other noise issue,
> stereos up too loud, loud parties etc.   However you would address those
> issues with tenants is how the barking should be handled.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:18 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> We do have a Tennent that claims she needs an ESA dog and she provided us
> with some ridiculous certificate she printed on-line.  She says she is in
> dire need of this dog yet she never has it with her and we have had
> complaints about the dog barking all day and night when she is gone.  Now
> she told us she is also going to have an ESA cat.  I looked up the laws in
> Wisconsin and sure enough she can have more than one ESA animal and we can't
> say anything about it.  It is just her way of getting to have a pet.  I
> fully understand that there are folks who really do benefit from ESA animals
> but in this particular situation it is not legit and we can't  do anything
> about it.
> 
> Just food for thought...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:00 PM
> To: Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
> 
> I know this isn't a helpful comment, but I wonder if all the folks with
> illigit so- called service animals, folks who have pets and they buy a
> certificate on line, or get their doc to write a note, have indeed caused
> this problem to come in to being. I know a guy in my area who literally got
> his doctor to write a note saying his cat is a service animal and then he
> showed it to his apartment office as it's a no pets apartment or
> something...so it does seem to be a more widespread problem then I would
> have thought.  I was actually surprised he didn't at least have the brains
> to keep that under raps but he seems to be telling everyone, oh well, ..
> 
> 
> The point is, if people with what would I call it, fake service animals act
> all  official about it and show certification or supposed certification to
> get away with stuff, then can you hardly blame the uneducated public for
> asking about this stuff. I do suspect, though it's total ignorance and
> probably the first thing that comes in to their mind, the public that is,
> rather than anything based on misleading precedent.
> 
> .I wish you good luck, Jordan, if it's not one thing it seems to be another,
> right?--smile
> 
> 
> Dan the man and Parker the nut
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/19/2018 11:30 PM, Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses. That is exactly what I thought. I am going
>> to wait for them to ask again and decide how to handle it.
>> Jordan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Jordan,
>>> 
>>> I own numerous properties in Wisconsin and it is 100% not okay that
>>> your landlord is asking about Belto.  They can not only not ask about
>>> him, they cannot ask for a separate pet deposit nor can they ask for
>>> an additional monthly fee for a service animal.  They can however
>>> get/ask/require any damages (if any) from any animal (service dog or
>>> not) if there are any damages to the property.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, Janell
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Melissa Allman
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:21 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> Hi Jordan. I've attached some guidance published by HUD in 2013
>>> concerning assistance animals. It applies to both private and public
>>> housing. Below is some pertinent language from the memo I think you
>>> will find helpful.
>>> Basically, no the landlord cannot ask for certification to prove that
>>> Belto is a service animal. See below and attached:
>>> 
>>> "However, a housing provider may not ask a tenant or applicant to
>>> provide documentation showing the disability or disability-related
>>> need for an assistance animal if the disability or disability-related
>>> need is readily apparent or already known to the provider. For
>>> example, persons who are blind or have low vision may not be asked to
>>> provide documentation of their disability or their disability-related
>>> need for a guide dog."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ 07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ 07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,     Fax:  973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:52 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] FHA question
>>> 
>>> I have a question. Is it legal under the FHA for my landlord to be
>>> asking for certification that Belto is a service animal?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
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> om
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>> 
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> ------------------------------
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> End of NAGDU Digest, Vol 162, Issue 19
> **************************************