[NAGDU] GDB training methods

Fri Aug 23 15:51:00 UTC 2019

I agree with almost everything you said here. However, due to physical things with me, I need easy to manage dogs, and I can tell you from personal experience that easy to manage sensitive soft dogs can be every bit as confident as the average or harder to manage dog. One of my guides was so confident and smart, I'd have traveled anywhere with her, and I had to cross some frightening intersections to get to the job I had for a while. Some of my dogs I'd never have risked those crossings, but this one, never needed leash corrections, but she was confident and smart, and the more the challenge, the more she liked it! Lol. Every dog is different.

Sherry
Sherry.gomes at outlook.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 9:44 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDB training methods

So I actually think we are talking about two different things here.
First, there is the use of highly force based training with a lot of corrections. Second, there is conservative use of corrections specific to the individual dog to communicate that you don't like a particular behavior.

I agree that highly correction based training can be boarderline cruel. Using excessive corrections, either in number or in force, can make a dog fearful and could cause them to shut down. The type of training that relies on forcing the dog into the behavior you want, associating a command with that behavior, and correcting the dog for offering any other behavior until they make the connection is unfair and will certainly inhibit free thinking in a dog. Taking a one size fits all approach to correction is also unfair. One dog might be extremely fearful of something that another dog literally could not care less about.

On the other hand, I think it is most fair to a dog to communicate clearly what is and is not acceptable, and what behavior you are looking for. You should not correct a dog for something they were never taught was wrong, and therefore, were never taught the correct behavior. You should not correct a dog for being fearful; you will only increase the fear response. You should not continue to use a particular type/strength of correction if the dog is not responding to it in any way, or if it is causing the dog discomfort or fear.

It actually isn't possible to train a dog unless there are pleasurable consequences for behavior you like, and negative consequences for behavior you don't like. Leash corrections are negative for a dog, but so to are verbal corrections, time outs, or anything a particular dog doesn't like. For example, one of  my dogs finds repetitive obedience sessions as a punishment, while another thinks it is a lot of fun.
Likewise, one of my dogs would be thrilled if I gave him a piece of carrot, while another would just walk away. One of my dogs completely panics at the sound of thunder, while the rest don't even flick an ear. Some dogs are even more sensitive to voice than physical contact, and might actually find a strong verbal correction more troubling than a light leash correction.

Service dogs in particular also need to have exceptional behavior in public, where handlers don't have much control over the environment.
Service dogs in general, but especially those that work in chaotic environments, can not have very sensitive temperaments, or they will not be able to work effectively and happily.

I think it is excellent that some programs are trying to develop training that minimizes corrections as much as possible. I actually chose a program with this being one of my main considerations. That being said, I also think it is not at all fair to either the dog or the handler to breed dogs that are too sensitive. Generally speaking, the less correction the dog needs, the more sensitive their temperament. A highly sensitive dog will not typically be able to handle a wide variety of sights, different surfaces, loud noises, long days, and the pressure of making independent decisions required of guide dogs in general but especially of guides working in large cities. IMO, guides should not be asked to work unless they have a confident temperament that allows them to handle stressful situations with a wagging tail. Similarly, I don't think it is appropriate to tell handlers they shouldn't work their dog in a certain environment, or for the handler to need to worry frequently about their dog being easily overwhelmed, for the sole purpose of breeding easy to manage dogs.

Some people don't need these very sound dogs, and that is fine. Some dogs have the perfect blend of sensitivity and confidence that allows them to work successfully without needing leash corrections, and that is great. But I think it is important to balance positive training methods with a genetically sound working dog.

Danielle

On 8/23/19, marianne denning via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> It is sad if they do that. I am training my own dog and I began 
> training when he was between 4 and 5 months and I have never used a leash correction.
> I have definitely used a very stern voice. He has always wanted to please.
>
> All of my dogs have come from Leader and they are working to breed 
> dogs that do not need leash corrections. I haven't used a leash 
> correction on any of my dogs from Leader since 2000. I have not needed to use it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Yiska via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 9:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Yiska <ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDB training methods
>
> Danielle,
>
> I think if you want a dog to think outside the box and not be scared 
> of leash corrections you can't use leash corrections otherwise that is 
> always hanging over their head.  As far as positive training there is 
> definately a skill to communicating.  I think many schools put the 
> dogs out younger and younger so they use corrections to try to manage 
> what they haven't taught yet.
> Yiska
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:45 PM Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> GDB was 100% positive reinforcement when I was there.  There is 
>> absolutely a place for leash corrections, but with that being said, 
>> one has to be taught when and how and if the dog requires them at all.
>> September did not need any corrections at all.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Yiska via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 5:05 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users < 
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Yiska <ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDB training methods
>>
>> I have personally seen the negative effects of leash corrections on 
>> an overdistracted dog.  His view of dogs went from excited want to 
>> play to scared and refusing to work.  Increasing corection strength 
>> didn't seem to help and made us both stressed.  It is good to know 
>> GDB is slowly getting away from leash corrections but sad it is so slow.
>> Yiska
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:48 PM Rebecca Ilniski via NAGDU 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I haven't had to use many leash corrections with my guides from GDB 
>> > either. I have a confident, but mellow guy who enjoys his work.
>> > We've been home for about a little over two weeks now and his house 
>> > manners and guidework are pheomenal! I work with students who are 
>> > blind and are from various cultures so I needed a dog who settles 
>> > well but yet can deal with the craziness of my city and that's what 
>> > I got. I don't care for leash corrections either as not only public 
>> > perception but with balance and vertigo issues I always need a dog 
>> > who is easy to manage. It's a hard combo but they are definitely 
>> > out there.
>> >
>> > Rebecca and Marvin
>> > email: rilniski at gmail.com
>> >
>> > On Aug 22, 2019, at 4:23 PM, JLM via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi folks:
>> >
>> > I am a 3rd time GDB grad, and one of the two aspects of why I use 
>> > GDB is their science-based training methods. The training staff 
>> > knows I DO NOT use leash corrections on my dogs and know I will 
>> > only exclusively positive methods and ignoring of all negative behavior.
>> >
>> > GDB is SLOWLY moving away, but not fast enough, from leash 
>> > corrections. It is the public image why I won't use it either.
>> >
>> > I will use a time-out method, but include a "watch me" command if 
>> > and when my dog is distracted. My current guide gets slightly 
>> > distracted by some things, so I prefer this method. She is an easy 
>> > to control sweetheart. None of my previous dogs, except my first 
>> > dog from a Canadian school, required leash corrections. I work in 
>> > an organization where public perception is a HUGE deal in my life 
>> > so I prefer a dog that doesn't require this and is exclusively 
>> > clicker/treat/praise trained, which I got. It took some confidence 
>> > building on my girl's part to become a team (we came home in
>> > May) but I am forever grateful for the extra training my dog 
>> > receives and how hard GDB works to find that perfect match that 
>> > best fit my employment needs, lifestyle, pace and health.
>> >
>> > Just my two cents and own experience 😊
>> >
>> > Jen and Parmesan
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber via 
>> > NAGDU
>> > Sent: August 22, 2019 1:15 PM
>> > To: Seyoon Choi <blindinsider1 at gmail.com>
>> > Cc: Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1 at gmail.com>; NAGDU Mailing List, the 
>> > National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDB training methods
>> >
>> > Oh interesting. I don't think I would necessarily get away with 
>> > that without people thinking I am being too aggressive or something.
>> > Completely unrelated, but the technique that I find which works for 
>> > me and my dogs is to immediately do five seconds of obedience or 
>> > something when my dog is distracting. This regains my focus on the 
>> > dog, in the event the issue is that I was unfocused. The dog 
>> > regains focus on me, and on its work *hopefully*. Then usually, we 
>> > can get on our way. At times, corrections are necessary, but since 
>> > I started doing this with my first dog, I find corrections are rare 
>> > for me. I am now on my third dog, and still find the above to be 
>> > true. I realize that this may not work for many people, and for 
>> > some dogs. I can't imagine that pulling the dog by its leash 
>> > towards me and waiting for ten seconds to be necessarily helpful if 
>> > the dog is being distracted and pulling... I can see it leading to 
>> > a fight. So instead, I give my pup a command she has to obey. When 
>> > she does, sometimes, especially in the beginning or especially 
>> > distracting situations, she gets a treat, and always a scratch on 
>> > the head. When we both are refocused, I pick up
>> the harness handle and charge on. This works for us.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:01 PM Seyoon Choi 
>> > > <blindinsider1 at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I was taught to drop the harness handle, pick up the leash with 
>> > > both hands and bringing the dog close and wait 10 seconds until 
>> > > the dog stops pulling towards the distraction. This is only good 
>> > > though for certain types of distraction, I normally result to 
>> > > corrections.
>> > >
>> > > Regards
>> > > Seyoon
>> > >
>> > > On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > What exactly is timeout?
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 11:44 AM Seyoon Choi via NAGDU 
>> > > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> I graduated from gdb with my first guide little over a week ago 
>> > >> so happy to answer this one. Yes, gdb does leash correction.
>> > >> Timeout is our first method but they will have us correct them 
>> > >> if the distraction is intense, or people are trying to come for 
>> > >> my dog for instance and he begins to pull/jump on them.
>> > >>
>> > >> Regards
>> > >> Seyoon
>> > >>
>> > >> Sent from my iPhone
>> > >>
>> > >>> On Aug 22, 2019, at 12:31 PM, Yiska via NAGDU 
>> > >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Hello list,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I am looking into schools as my 4th dog didn't work out.  What 
>> > >>> is GDB's view on corrections?  Do they do leash corrections?
>> > >>> They are promoting
>> > >> to
>> > >>> the world that they are an all positive school but their grad 
>> > >>> class lectures say they use corrections.  I figured I would 
>> > >>> here from grads themselves.  I am not opposed to redirecting.  
>> > >>> Thanks for your
>> > time.
>> > >>> Yiska
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
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>> > >> 40
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>> > >> ail.com
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>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Best,
>> > >
>> > > Nimer Jaber
>> > >
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