[NAGDU] GDB training methods

Yiska ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com
Fri Aug 23 18:04:39 UTC 2019 

Here is a good video explaining my views.  I also feel and I will have to
check but some schools that use positive reinforcement fade it out too
quickly or don't use a reinforcer of enough value.
https://youtu.be/X7e0UC0PzFM

Yiska


On Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 11:53 AM Yiska <ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I wanted to clarify my views on this topic.  I do believe there is or can
> be a difference between corrections and showing a dog that you do not like
> something.  For example if your dog starts pulling on leash while teaching
> loose leash walking  you could leash correct or you could stop and wait for
> them to get their attention back on you.  If a dog starts biting at you you
> could leash correct or give a verba" correction or you could step over a
> baby gate or stand up/walk away.
> Walking away or stopping would both be appropriate in my book.
>
> Rox'e your post makes sense.  In the moment out in public you have to do
> what you gotta do to get your dog  back under control but corrections
> shouldn't be part of the training plan.  It has been my experience when
> corrections were suggested that it ended up masking a behavior and then the
> dog became fearful of whatever it was they were originally reacting to. I
> also agree there can be dogs who can handle big cities and be clicker
> trained.  I think all dogs can be clicker trained it just depends how much
> time and effort you want to put in.  I also believe very few dogs can
> handle the stress of guide work. Dog's don't perform as we like because
> their training has not prepared them for it.   I am calling GDB later today
> to get their views on training and such.
> Yiska
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 10:02 AM Rox Homstad via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Danielle makes awesome points here. another thing to take into account is
>> the fact that these are service dogs and many  PWD are weaker/have other
>> health issues where they need an instant way to get the dog's attention--
>> I'll give you an example.
>> I'm Deafblind, with vertigo and pretty advanced lung disease.   I am
>> working, as one of my service dogs, Rowan-- a 2 year old American
>> Staffordshire Terrior/American Bulldog/GSD something something mix. Like
>> all Bully breeds she is very, very strong.  This is great because she is an
>> awesome counterbalance and momentum dog for me.  However, Rowan's weakness
>> is squirrels.  We live in New Orleans and believe it or not we don't have a
>> lot of squirrels here.  However the school where I teach, which is a small
>> rural school out in the country is like squirrel heaven.  Rowan becomes
>> very distracted by these squirrels and completely tunes me out which would
>> lead to me falling and getting hurt.
>> So here are my options:
>> 1. I could wash Rowan out as my guide because of this squirrel issue.
>> Even though in all other respects she's fantastic!
>> 2. I could pay the 100 dollar round-trip daily in a uber to go work on
>> gradual squirrel desensatization in the only place where I know there will
>> be squirrels.
>> 3. I could buy a microprong collar, fit it properly and use it to get her
>> attention when she starts to zone out over squirrels.
>> Rowan has never been trained with corrections until this prong collar,
>> she'd never experienced a correction in her life.  However I chose that
>> option because I am not made of money and I also don't want to retire a
>> really awesome dog over one issue that we encounter maybe 2 times a week if
>> that.  However ignoring it and not taking action to fix the problem is
>> going to end up with me getting hurt.
>> So we use the prong collar. I have corrected her all of twice, and each
>> time I did, I used a verbal warning.  And guess what, she is much better
>> now, but she isn't over all fearful and has no problem offering other
>> behaviors.
>> So while I don't thing corrections should be even an every day thing, I
>> do think that they have their place and I can say that the use of this
>> collar in our situation has really saved me from making a really hard
>> choice.
>>
>>
>> Rox'E and the Kitchen Bitches
>> Soleil, Rowan, Phoenix
>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>
>> > On Aug 23, 2019, at 10:44 AM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > So I actually think we are talking about two different things here.
>> > First, there is the use of highly force based training with a lot of
>> > corrections. Second, there is conservative use of corrections specific
>> > to the individual dog to communicate that you don't like a particular
>> > behavior.
>> >
>> > I agree that highly correction based training can be boarderline
>> > cruel. Using excessive corrections, either in number or in force, can
>> > make a dog fearful and could cause them to shut down. The type of
>> > training that relies on forcing the dog into the behavior you want,
>> > associating a command with that behavior, and correcting the dog for
>> > offering any other behavior until they make the connection is unfair
>> > and will certainly inhibit free thinking in a dog. Taking a one size
>> > fits all approach to correction is also unfair. One dog might be
>> > extremely fearful of something that another dog literally could not
>> > care less about.
>> >
>> > On the other hand, I think it is most fair to a dog to communicate
>> > clearly what is and is not acceptable, and what behavior you are
>> > looking for. You should not correct a dog for something they were
>> > never taught was wrong, and therefore, were never taught the correct
>> > behavior. You should not correct a dog for being fearful; you will
>> > only increase the fear response. You should not continue to use a
>> > particular type/strength of correction if the dog is not responding to
>> > it in any way, or if it is causing the dog discomfort or fear.
>> >
>> > It actually isn't possible to train a dog unless there are pleasurable
>> > consequences for behavior you like, and negative consequences for
>> > behavior you don't like. Leash corrections are negative for a dog, but
>> > so to are verbal corrections, time outs, or anything a particular dog
>> > doesn't like. For example, one of  my dogs finds repetitive obedience
>> > sessions as a punishment, while another thinks it is a lot of fun.
>> > Likewise, one of my dogs would be thrilled if I gave him a piece of
>> > carrot, while another would just walk away. One of my dogs completely
>> > panics at the sound of thunder, while the rest don't even flick an
>> > ear. Some dogs are even more sensitive to voice than physical contact,
>> > and might actually find a strong verbal correction more troubling than
>> > a light leash correction.
>> >
>> > Service dogs in particular also need to have exceptional behavior in
>> > public, where handlers don't have much control over the environment.
>> > Service dogs in general, but especially those that work in chaotic
>> > environments, can not have very sensitive temperaments, or they will
>> > not be able to work effectively and happily.
>> >
>> > I think it is excellent that some programs are trying to develop
>> > training that minimizes corrections as much as possible. I actually
>> > chose a program with this being one of my main considerations. That
>> > being said, I also think it is not at all fair to either the dog or
>> > the handler to breed dogs that are too sensitive. Generally speaking,
>> > the less correction the dog needs, the more sensitive their
>> > temperament. A highly sensitive dog will not typically be able to
>> > handle a wide variety of sights, different surfaces, loud noises, long
>> > days, and the pressure of making independent decisions required of
>> > guide dogs in general but especially of guides working in large
>> > cities. IMO, guides should not be asked to work unless they have a
>> > confident temperament that allows them to handle stressful situations
>> > with a wagging tail. Similarly, I don't think it is appropriate to
>> > tell handlers they shouldn't work their dog in a certain environment,
>> > or for the handler to need to worry frequently about their dog being
>> > easily overwhelmed, for the sole purpose of breeding easy to manage
>> > dogs.
>> >
>> > Some people don't need these very sound dogs, and that is fine. Some
>> > dogs have the perfect blend of sensitivity and confidence that allows
>> > them to work successfully without needing leash corrections, and that
>> > is great. But I think it is important to balance positive training
>> > methods with a genetically sound working dog.
>> >
>> > Danielle
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 8/23/19, marianne denning via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >> It is sad if they do that. I am training my own dog and I began
>> training
>> >> when he was between 4 and 5 months and I have never used a leash
>> correction.
>> >> I have definitely used a very stern voice. He has always wanted to
>> please.
>> >>
>> >> All of my dogs have come from Leader and they are working to breed
>> dogs that
>> >> do not need leash corrections. I haven't used a leash correction on
>> any of
>> >> my dogs from Leader since 2000. I have not needed to use it.
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Yiska via NAGDU
>> >> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 9:40 PM
>> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >> Cc: Yiska <ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDB training methods
>> >>
>> >> Danielle,
>> >>
>> >> I think if you want a dog to think outside the box and not be scared of
>> >> leash corrections you can't use leash corrections otherwise that is
>> always
>> >> hanging over their head.  As far as positive training there is
>> definately a
>> >> skill to communicating.  I think many schools put the dogs out younger
>> and
>> >> younger so they use corrections to try to manage what they haven't
>> taught
>> >> yet.
>> >> Yiska
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:45 PM Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU <
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> GDB was 100% positive reinforcement when I was there.  There is
>> >>> absolutely a place for leash corrections, but with that being said,
>> >>> one has to be taught when and how and if the dog requires them at all.
>> >>> September did not need any corrections at all.
>> >>> Jordan
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Yiska via NAGDU
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 5:05 PM
>> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <
>> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Cc: Yiska <ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDB training methods
>> >>>
>> >>> I have personally seen the negative effects of leash corrections on an
>> >>> overdistracted dog.  His view of dogs went from excited want to play
>> >>> to scared and refusing to work.  Increasing corection strength didn't
>> >>> seem to help and made us both stressed.  It is good to know GDB is
>> >>> slowly getting away from leash corrections but sad it is so slow.
>> >>> Yiska
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:48 PM Rebecca Ilniski via NAGDU
>> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I haven't had to use many leash corrections with my guides from GDB
>> >>>> either. I have a confident, but mellow guy who enjoys his work.
>> >>>> We've been home for about a little over two weeks now and his house
>> >>>> manners and guidework are pheomenal! I work with students who are
>> >>>> blind and are from various cultures so I needed a dog who settles
>> >>>> well but yet can deal with the craziness of my city and that's what
>> >>>> I got. I don't care for leash corrections either as not only public
>> >>>> perception but with balance and vertigo issues I always need a dog
>> >>>> who is easy to manage. It's a hard combo but they are definitely out
>> >>>> there.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Rebecca and Marvin
>> >>>> email: rilniski at gmail.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Aug 22, 2019, at 4:23 PM, JLM via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi folks:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I am a 3rd time GDB grad, and one of the two aspects of why I use
>> >>>> GDB is their science-based training methods. The training staff
>> >>>> knows I DO NOT use leash corrections on my dogs and know I will only
>> >>>> exclusively positive methods and ignoring of all negative behavior.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> GDB is SLOWLY moving away, but not fast enough, from leash
>> >>>> corrections. It is the public image why I won't use it either.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I will use a time-out method, but include a "watch me" command if
>> >>>> and when my dog is distracted. My current guide gets slightly
>> >>>> distracted by some things, so I prefer this method. She is an easy
>> >>>> to control sweetheart. None of my previous dogs, except my first dog
>> >>>> from a Canadian school, required leash corrections. I work in an
>> >>>> organization where public perception is a HUGE deal in my life so I
>> >>>> prefer a dog that doesn't require this and is exclusively
>> >>>> clicker/treat/praise trained, which I got. It took some confidence
>> >>>> building on my girl's part to become a team (we came home in
>> >>>> May) but I am forever grateful for the extra training my dog
>> >>>> receives and how hard GDB works to find that perfect match that best
>> >>>> fit my employment needs, lifestyle, pace and health.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just my two cents and own experience 😊
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jen and Parmesan
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber via
>> >>>> NAGDU
>> >>>> Sent: August 22, 2019 1:15 PM
>> >>>> To: Seyoon Choi <blindinsider1 at gmail.com>
>> >>>> Cc: Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1 at gmail.com>; NAGDU Mailing List, the
>> >>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] GDB training methods
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Oh interesting. I don't think I would necessarily get away with that
>> >>>> without people thinking I am being too aggressive or something.
>> >>>> Completely unrelated, but the technique that I find which works for
>> >>>> me and my dogs is to immediately do five seconds of obedience or
>> >>>> something when my dog is distracting. This regains my focus on the
>> >>>> dog, in the event the issue is that I was unfocused. The dog regains
>> >>>> focus on me, and on its work *hopefully*. Then usually, we can get
>> >>>> on our way. At times, corrections are necessary, but since I started
>> >>>> doing this with my first dog, I find corrections are rare for me. I
>> >>>> am now on my third dog, and still find the above to be true. I
>> >>>> realize that this may not work for many people, and for some dogs. I
>> >>>> can't imagine that pulling the dog by its leash towards me and
>> >>>> waiting for ten seconds to be necessarily helpful if the dog is
>> >>>> being distracted and pulling... I can see it leading to a fight. So
>> >>>> instead, I give my pup a command she has to obey. When she does,
>> >>>> sometimes, especially in the beginning or especially distracting
>> >>>> situations, she gets a treat, and always a scratch on the head. When
>> >>>> we both are refocused, I pick up
>> >>> the harness handle and charge on. This works for us.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:01 PM Seyoon Choi
>> >>>>> <blindinsider1 at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I was taught to drop the harness handle, pick up the leash with
>> >>>>> both hands and bringing the dog close and wait 10 seconds until
>> >>>>> the dog stops pulling towards the distraction. This is only good
>> >>>>> though for certain types of distraction, I normally result to
>> >>>>> corrections.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Regards
>> >>>>> Seyoon
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1 at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What exactly is timeout?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 11:44 AM Seyoon Choi via NAGDU
>> >>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> I graduated from gdb with my first guide little over a week ago
>> >>>>>> so happy to answer this one. Yes, gdb does leash correction.
>> >>>>>> Timeout is our first method but they will have us correct them if
>> >>>>>> the distraction is intense, or people are trying to come for my
>> >>>>>> dog for instance and he begins to pull/jump on them.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regards
>> >>>>>> Seyoon
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2019, at 12:31 PM, Yiska via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hello list,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I am looking into schools as my 4th dog didn't work out.  What
>> >>>>>>> is GDB's view on corrections?  Do they do leash corrections?
>> >>>>>>> They are promoting
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>> the world that they are an all positive school but their grad
>> >>>>>>> class lectures say they use corrections.  I figured I would here
>> >>>>>>> from grads themselves.  I am not opposed to redirecting.  Thanks
>> >>>>>>> for your
>> >>>> time.
>> >>>>>>> Yiska
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>> >>>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>>>>> info for
>> >>>>>> NAGDU:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blindinsider1%
>> >>>>>> 40
>> >>>>>> gm
>> >>>>>> ail.com
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>> >>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> NAGDU:
>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40
>> >>>>>> gm
>> >>>>>> ai
>> >>>>>> l.com
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Nimer Jaber
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
>> >>>>> addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
>> >>>>> please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
>> >>>>> correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its
>> >>>>> contents by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result
>> >>>>> in civil or criminal charges. I have checked this email and all
>> >>>>> corresponding attachments for security threats. However, security
>> >>>>> of your machine is up to you. Thanks.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Registered Linux User 529141.
>> >>>>> http://counter.li.org/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows
>> >>>>> XP and above, please click here:
>> >>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology
>> news.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at
>> >>>>> (970)
>> >>>>> (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
>> >>>>> you, and have a great day!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Best,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nimer Jaber
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
>> >>>> addressed.
>> >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please
>> >>>> notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
>> correspondence.
>> >>>> Action taken as a result of this email or its contents by anyone
>> >>>> other than the intended
>> >>>> recipient(s) may result in civil or criminal charges. I have checked
>> >>>> this email and all corresponding attachments for security threats.
>> >>>> However, security of your machine is up to you. Thanks.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Registered Linux User 529141.
>> >>>> http://counter.li.org/
>> >>>>
>> >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
>> >>>> and above, please click here:
>> >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at
>> >>>> (970)
>> >>>> (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
>> >>>> you, and have a great day!
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> NAGDU mailing list
>> >>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> NAGDU:
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jenandnixon%40gma
>> >>>> il
>> >>>> .com
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> NAGDU mailing list
>> >>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> NAGDU:
>> >>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rilniski%40comcast.
>> >>>> net
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> NAGDU mailing list
>> >>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> NAGDU:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40
>> >>>> gm
>> >>>> ail.com
>> >>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> NAGDU mailing list
>> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>> NAGDU:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandoliver%40
>> >>> gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> NAGDU mailing list
>> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>> NAGDU:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gm
>> >>> ail.com
>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> NAGDU mailing list
>> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/marianne%40denningweb.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> NAGDU mailing list
>> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > NAGDU mailing list
>> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> >
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pawpower4me%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com
>>
>

More information about the NAGDU mailing list