[NAGDU] For Sandra / Fending off other dogs
Retina
pwolf1 at wolfskills.com
Fri Jan 4 04:00:49 UTC 2019
Sandra,
I have a few thoughts. I am sorry to hear about this challenge you are having with other dogs. Yes, coyotes, unless completely stripped of thier natural defense of skittishness, or are rabbid, will scare off. Coyotes can tease and lure a dog, then attack it. But an adult, or an adult and dog linked together, are too big for their world.
But for incoming aggressive dogs, I will outline some things. I have learned through successes with equipment, a road story that relates, and what I have learned with movement and cane that I have found helpful over time.
I notice that sometimes this subject of dealing with problems from other dogs comes back up in the list periodically. We can’t all catch everything all the time. Sandra if you find any of this helpful, great. For everyone else, ditto, and sorry if anything I write is a repeat. I know how spooky it can be to have to fend off another dog, and I have found some good ways in doing it successfully. I will cover use of movement, cane, leash and how I have altered leash and clipping it onto myself to ease this kind of situation (as well as that it is great for everyday use). This will meander a little, so please bear with me. I had a little fun writing this and hope it is helpful.
So lets go. The cane:
In situations like this, or urban situations also, I have my cane. It is either folded in a pocket, or (better yet, extended), even if Metukah is working. If I think that I may encounter dog trouble somewhere, my cane is extended. Being vision impaired, not totally blind, I don’t think matters. That is because the ways that I am blind when on my feet, are almost always in angles where I do not see anything of the dogs coming. So I think this may be a helpful discussion no matter how much or little anyone may see. Being vision impaired, however, has given me some data for to pass along on effectiveness, because I have been able to catch the results that my actions have produced. So I hope this helps.
On movement and my dog, the most elemental defense:
First, if we have time, I have Metukah sit. This can help to short-circuit aggression from incoming dog, because sitting is a passive position offering no stimulation to match a challenge. It also parks her exactly where I need her, helping me not to step on her feet or trip over her if I have to move. About two years ago, we were charged by a pitt bull, which was known to attack other animals. Back then I did not have my cane on me. When I heard it coming, I had Tuki sit, then stepped forward and right, in front of her, tucking her shoulder neck behind my right knee. The pitt came to a stop at my left shin and I handled it. That’s when I realized how great it would have been to have a cane out. Let’s talk about how I’ve learned to use the cane in this situation:
I have learned to keep an agile but fast grip on the cane, when I hear a dog coming. I quickly swing the cane out and around in an arc, to get it into position between dogs. This is a big movement, and it (can) offer some distraction get the other dog’s attention, especially because where it is going is right into the space in front of it’s face when it arrives. The incoming dog however, likely won’t notice the cane at first, because it is narrowly focused on our dog. I’ve learned this by experiencing it a few times. It isn’t the big swinging arc of the cane that distracts - it is about the speed and sudden arrival of the cane as it stops into position right in front of the other dog as it arrives, while it is fixated on my dog. Here’s the good news: The cane, held in any normal hand grip in use, is about about a 45 degree angle from the ground to our grip on the handle. This is a perfect natural angle to quickly swing it to cover the space between the incoming dog and us, the team. It is also a strong angle to move from, if it becomes necessary to use the cane to actually fend off the other dog.
I was concerned about the description of calling to other dog owners, who may do little, or are too far away to control their dog. I too have encountered this. We unfortunately have to take it into our own hands, like being blind martial artists. It’s often just too late, or the other owner is too far away, and that’s if they even care. I mean, at least in enough time to prevent us being messed with. Here’s a story that illustrates it from another time and place which is kind of where I learned this approach. I remember, from years back before I had vision loss, back in the era when I rode a motorcycle, how I preserved my own life using this stragegy on four occasions. Using the horn was an interesting teaching on a motorcycle. Using the horn to call others attention was like trying, or hoping, to communicate with another person (now for our purpose, another dog owner), so that they might notice or be willing to change the situation. It taught me that that doesn’t work.
For the story, note that only did I have a horn... it was a serious one. I took off the little factory beep beep horn, and installed a set of piercingly loud, two tone Italian compressed air horns. I mean, they were teeth vibrating, ear-splitting loud from a block away. I also by the way had a constantly flashing halogen safety headlight, and wore a day glow fluorescent orange full body oversuit. But guess what, no one ever saw me, because I wasn’t as big as a car… Car or bigger is the size that drivers see. And so when I honked, sometimes it got their attention and it went ok. But guess what, it was only sometimes, that they did connect the sound to me. Often, when I hit the button, I could see them startle, and then, they would begin to scan around, past me, wondering where that sound came from. If I had depended on that, “communication", then by the time they put it all together, I would have been pattaaaay... The trick was to work not with communicating with others for my safety, but instead to move like a martial artist on wheels. I had to react to their movement and direction, or their direction change, and then shift or position myself accordingly so that when they came, moved, turned or stopped, I just wouldn’t be exactly in that spot. That taught me a lot.
That’s a cool memory, and I hope it was fun to read. But here’s the thing. We have been charged by other dogs a number of times before. I have had to distract and turn away dogs, and I have had to get a dog off of ours. I have found my best working strategy of using a cane, because it is immediate, and under my timing and control, not anyone else’s. I will talk about cane use below.
But first, when I work with Metukah in any form, there is always a leash. I have rigged it so that we can still function seamlessly if I drop it. The leash has a small loop that I can fit two fingers into, sewn on about every foot or so. So wherever we are, there is a loop that makes the perfect working length. That loop, and the leash end, I clip together onto the side of my belt with a full sized climber’s carabiner. If, by the way, after reading this description, any of you want to try this leash method, I love it. I’ll also describe the optimal carabiner that I arrived at by trial and error at the end if you want to get one and try it.
Ok back to it. So, if we are leash guiding, or I just want the leash handy, I can use only a finger’s pressure…and only one finger. We work very sensitively with little pulling pressure because of my balance spatial issues. We communicate this way in motion, as much as she takes me along as we walk. An advantage to this is that if I ever drop her leash by accident, or if I have to drop it to use both hands for any reason, she is right there anyway. All I have to do is reach down in an arc, and I will immediately have the proper leash hold in hand. But the added advantage is that any time I have to deal with an incoming dog, I can be free to use both hands with the cane if necessary to get it into just the right place.
I have had a number of dogs approach with barking, lunging, snapping or snarling over the years. There have only been two that got all the way in. In one of them, I used my body which was all I had. The other one, the cane worked. Once, in this case, using the martial artsy approach I discussed above, on the dog that launched onto ours, I simply slid the cane tip forward along the ground in the space between our dog and that dog, extended it some, then lifted my handle up and out with a little step toward that dog. It was a big, shepherd sized dog, getting up onto our’s shoulder to neck area. When I extended the cane under it and stepped in, this applied upward and outward pressure under the dog’s rib cage. It essentially pried the dog up off of ours, and a little off of the ground too. The dog went up and over sideways. This did not hurt the dog, but going suddenly wonky and slightly airborne surprised the hell out of it, and it ran away, startled. Call it sudden derailment. Dogs aren’t used to that. It was enough and he split. This was surprisingly natural movement. Dance with this sometime. And also, practice getting ease in rapidly swinging a cane around to stop between your dog and where the incoming dog will be. You may have use it one day. You can practice it slowly, this doesn’t matter. Your body will remember how through muscle memory, and do it at whatever speed necessary, without thinking.
My dog’s safety is the concern. Surprise in the form of a cane to change where the other dog (or it’s mouth) is, is the key. There are things to do with a cane that can confuse and drive off another dog, whether the cane is extended or folded. We’ve met our share, and I’ve had success. Feel free to write to me offline to talk if you need to dial how to work with this. I ha
Here are my notes on carabiners, if you’d like to try it: I’m talking about a real climber’s carabiner, not the little hardware store goodies. There are only about three styles of climbers’ carabiner. I use non-locking, one that is the flatter of the two general carabiner styles, with a wire spring gate instead of a solid gate, and a more overall D shape than the old standard oval shape. It is an easier style for this purpose. All climbing departments in sporting goods stores, or places like REI have these. I like this type because they are the flattest and easiest to clip on and off of my belt, even if it is a thicker everyday belt, not just a narrow dress belt.
Best,
Peter
n Dec 29, 2018, at 4:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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> 1. Re: Questions (Sandra Johnson)
> 2. Re: Questions (Jody ianuzzi)
> 3. Uber and Lyft (Yingling, Valerie)
> 4. Identifying as service (Retina)
> 5. Identifying as service (Retina)
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>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 10:54:12 -0500
> From: "Sandra Johnson" <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Questions
> Message-ID: <C84F650A2BD3405C8C4049C938D638CA at JOHNSON>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hi Melissa:
>
> I have a pond right behind my house. All kinds of wildlife can come along.
> Eva will sometimes bark and I do not know why but I immediately get her
> inside if we are in the back yard. Many of my neighbors have seen coyotes
> by the pond. That really scares me but I do have to go outside with my dog.
> Someone told me that coyotes are afraid of humans so if you make lots of
> noise they will run away. Maybe that is true because when Eva barks, and I
> clap my hands and shout, whatever animal is prowling around seems to run
> off. Some people find a loud whistle can help. The loose out of control
> dogs are a problem. Having your dog attacked is one of the most
> frightening things to happen to . a guide dog team. I try to make as much
> noise as possible with the hope to scare the dog into leaving us alone and
> to hopefully attract the attention of the person who owns that dog or anyone
> who can help. The frustration comes when the people just sit on their
> porches calling to their dog to come back to them. I do get mad and tell
> them to come get their poorly behaved dog away from my guide dog who is
> trying to do her work. If a dog is trying to hurt my dog, I push, shove
> ,hit or kick at the other dog trying to push it away from my dog. Of
> course, then I often have gotten bit too. In those situations you just act
> out of despiration and will do anything to keep your dog from being hurt.
> When necessary I call #911 for help. Always have your cell phone ready for
> emergencies.
>
> Sandra
> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melissa R. Green via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 4:54 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Melissa R. Green
> Subject: [NAGDU] Questions
>
> Hi.
> I have a question. How do you handle living in a neighborhood with lots of
> wild life?, such as cowyotes.
> How do you deal with loose dogs, and or dogs being let oub by their owners
> to go after you and your guide dog?
> I these situations, how do you keep your dog safe?
>
> Sincerely,
> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 12:36:39 -0500
> From: Jody ianuzzi <thunderwalker321 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Questions
> Message-ID: <E8558A35-D010-477F-AC4A-24FA3F7C365E at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> You might also call animal control and have them patrol your neighborhood.
>
> JODY
>
> thunderwalker321 at gmail.com
>
> "What's within you is stronger than what's in your way." NO BARRIERS Erik Weihenmayer
>
>> On Dec 28, 2018, at 10:54 AM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Melissa:
>>
>> I have a pond right behind my house. All kinds of wildlife can come along. Eva will sometimes bark and I do not know why but I immediately get her inside if we are in the back yard. Many of my neighbors have seen coyotes by the pond. That really scares me but I do have to go outside with my dog. Someone told me that coyotes are afraid of humans so if you make lots of noise they will run away. Maybe that is true because when Eva barks, and I clap my hands and shout, whatever animal is prowling around seems to run off. Some people find a loud whistle can help. The loose out of control dogs are a problem. Having your dog attacked is one of the most frightening things to happen to . a guide dog team. I try to make as much noise as possible with the hope to scare the dog into leaving us alone and to hopefully attract the attention of the person who owns that dog or anyone who can help. The frustration comes when the people just sit on their porches calling to their dog to come back to them. I do get mad and tell them to come get their poorly behaved dog away from my guide dog who is trying to do her work. If a dog is trying to hurt my dog, I push, shove ,hit or kick at the other dog trying to push it away from my dog. Of course, then I often have gotten bit too. In those situations you just act out of despiration and will do anything to keep your dog from being hurt. When necessary I call #911 for help. Always have your cell phone ready for emergencies.
>>
>> Sandra
>> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
>> -----Original Message----- From: Melissa R. Green via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 4:54 PM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Melissa R. Green
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Questions
>>
>> Hi.
>> I have a question. How do you handle living in a neighborhood with lots of wild life?, such as cowyotes.
>> How do you deal with loose dogs, and or dogs being let oub by their owners to go after you and your guide dog?
>> I these situations, how do you keep your dog safe?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
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>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/thunderwalker321%40gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 20:24:08 +0000
> From: "Yingling, Valerie" <Vyingling at nfb.org>
> To: "'nagdu at nfbnet.org'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Uber and Lyft
> Message-ID:
> <BN6PR17MB203321C5FE67A2E8F9DA8767A7B70 at BN6PR17MB2033.namprd17.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Dear NAGDU members,
>
> Before the year ends, please remember to report your 2018 rideshare experiences via NFB's online survey: https://nfb.org/rideshare-test. Your feedback continues to be critically important to our Uber and Lyft agreement monitoring efforts. Remember that we are seeking feedback on both positive and negative rideshare experiences.
>
> Thank you for your ongoing support and happy new year!
>
> Valerie
>
> Valerie Yingling
> 410-659-9314 x 2440
> National Federation of the Blind
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 12:46:20 -0800
> From: Retina <pwolf1 at wolfskills.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Identifying as service
> Message-ID: <72AB4E3B-7513-4647-91BE-8359F255E76F at wolfskills.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Danielle (and thanks for your input also Marion)?
>
> Just to make sure I answered this?
>
> Yes, as I wrote previously, Andrea?s dog is non-guiding service. Metukah is guide and mobility. Even if no harness at the time, Metukah still always wears her clearly marked service cape. I have entertained using harness only, but actually have never done it yet. We do mix it up as needed: harness and cape, leash only and cape? ? And, about half the time, when my spatial proprioception is screwier, or in crowded or tight places, one of those, and, cane as well.
>
> My best,
> Peter
>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 4:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
>>
>> Send NAGDU mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: NAGDU Digest, Vol 165, Issue 15 (Retina)
>> 2. A resource for situation of rejection by a doctor's office
>> (Retina)
>> 3. Re: Our Access, ESAs and fake service animals (Jenine Stanley)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 11:38:13 -0800
>> From: Retina <pwolf1 at wolfskills.com>
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] NAGDU Digest, Vol 165, Issue 15
>> Message-ID: <DD79CA15-C680-4FE8-A329-34D3DB5ACD80 at wolfskills.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am very appreciative for your comments and follow through in your responses. Thank you so much. I?m thinking thoughts like, oh you know, it?s just another chance encounter where we?ve taken crap?as in this: on an internal level, another good opportunity of ?grist for the mill,? to use for the purpose of living more self assured and strongly standing in the truth of being a good person, simply doing what is right, and growing just a little more of a layer of a healthy skin so to speak. That is always a healthy mindset.
>>
>> But this was also a transation, which is an important example of what we as individuals in this group, deal with. This one, in precisely how it happened, gave my wife and me a very particular impression. The impression was one the we each independently shared with each other when we talked about it after leaving the scene. Here is why this particular transaction got my attention: We each came away with the understanding of what must feel like to be a minority person facing descrimination. This time, we got it on both a psychological and emotional level what it is to be rejected. This is the reason why I took it seriously enough to share the story with you all. This may only have been a case of someone simply, innocently, uninformed. Nonetheless, even that is a core aspect of what makes discrimination ok at all. These things are why I went after it. So again, thank you for your responses, your follow up responses, and also for documents that you have sent. Those will be helpful to include in the letter to the doctor, to give him a sense of credibility in the communication rather than simply a situational or emotional complaint.
>>
>> Warmly,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 4:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
>>>
>>> Send NAGDU mailing list submissions to
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Refused at medical office (Star Gazer)
>>> 2. Re: Refused at medical office (Keri Svendsen)
>>> 3. Re: Refused at medical office (Melissa Allman)
>>> 4. Re: Refused at medical office (NAGDU President)
>>> 5. Re: Refused at medical office (Marianne Denning)
>>> 6. Re: Refused at medical office (Jenine Stanley)
>>> 7. Re: Refused at medical office (Danielle Sykora)
>>> 8. Our Access, ESAs and fake service animals (Sandra Johnson)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:10:51 -0500
>>> From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>> Message-ID: <02ae01d4992e$9974c8e0$cc5e5aa0$@gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Y ou've gotten some good advice. Do write to the doctor if you like him, he probably has no idea what the receptionist said or her attitude, everybody behaves when the boss is around.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Retina via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:33 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Retina <pwolf1 at wolfskills.com>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>>
>>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>>
>>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>>
>>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>>
>>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>>
>>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:53:22 -0500
>>> From: Keri Svendsen <keribcu at gmail.com>
>>> To: Melissa Allman via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>> Message-ID: <719d250f-36d4-bcda-2934-d76e3629085a at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Melissa,
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you. I know when I had surgery in 2014, and Bliss and I were still
>>> a new team still only a year old I was worried how she'd take it. I left
>>> her in the waiting room with my boyfriend whho she knew and liked. I
>>> also trusted him to sit with her.
>>>
>>> My nurse prepping me in pre-op came in, and asked, is that your dog and
>>> your boyfriend in the waiting room? I replied yes, they are there
>>> because I wasn't sure if you guys would allow her here. He then told me
>>> of course she is allowed in here, let me go get them..
>>>
>>> Though we had to put the bars up on the bed because Bliss jumped in the
>>> bed with me. I don't think she liked seeing mommy attached to a IV and
>>> heart monitor.
>>>
>>> She was fine though when she could touch my hand through the bars with
>>> her nose, and she knew I was okay.
>>>
>>> They had my girl there when I woke up too.
>>>
>>> This hospital was extremely fantastic with me.
>>>
>>> I hope this story gives some of you hhope. Though they don't have to
>>> allow your dog in places like pre-op, post-op OR, ICU, CCU etc some
>>> hospitals use common sense!
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/21/2018 6:40 AM, Melissa Allman via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> Hi all. Marion does raise some very important points here. Below is a link to some information on our web site about the rights of guide dog handlers in health care facilities.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.seeingeye.org/knowledge-center/rights--legal-information/guide-dogs-in-hospitals.html
>>>>
>>>> One of the items referenced there is a self-evaluation checklist that health care providers can use to see if they are compliant with the ADA. It can be found at:
>>>> http://www.afb.org/info/programs-and-services/public-policy-center/civil-rights/advocacy-resources/ada-checklist-health-care-facilities-and-service-providers/12345
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps and it is unfortunate that guide dog handlers continue to have these experiences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations
>>>> The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ?07963-0375 (mail)
>>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ?07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,???? Fax:? 973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:36 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: cindyray at gmail.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>
>>>> It is a burden of the people in charge to ask if the dog is a service dog. If your answer is yes, then the next question is what service does the dog perform. I hope you will all read Marion's message as it goes into considerable detail about this issue.
>>>> Thank you.
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 7:32 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>
>>>> Service dogs are not allowed in sterile environments; however, they must be truly sterile. Service dogs are not permitted in the OR or typically burn units where mask/gloves/other procedures are necessary. Exam rooms are definitely not sterile environments. Generally, if you can walk in with your normal clothes and shoes, your service dog can accompany you.
>>>> I believe Peter uses a guide dog and his wife uses a non-guiding service dog, correct me if I?m wrong. Most service dogs do not wear guide harnesses, and it is unfair to say that a dog must wear a guide harness or discrimination is acceptable.
>>>> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Retina
>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>>>>
>>>>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>>>>
>>>>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/keribcu%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> Keri Svendsen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:03:39 -0500
>>> From: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>> Message-ID: <68528A425613C841AF38DE1B877F19630220757D2173 at TSEMTEXCH01>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Thanks Keri. I really appreciate this story about your positive experience. Although there are unfortunately public accommodations out there that do not comply with the ADA, there are those that do and it's good to be reminded.
>>>
>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations
>>> The Seeing Eye, Inc.
>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ?07963-0375 (mail)
>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ?07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,???? Fax:? 973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org??
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Keri Svendsen via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:53 AM
>>> To: Melissa Allman via NAGDU
>>> Cc: Keri Svendsen
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>
>>> Melissa,
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you. I know when I had surgery in 2014, and Bliss and I were still a new team still only a year old I was worried how she'd take it. I left her in the waiting room with my boyfriend whho she knew and liked. I also trusted him to sit with her.
>>>
>>> My nurse prepping me in pre-op came in, and asked, is that your dog and your boyfriend in the waiting room? I replied yes, they are there because I wasn't sure if you guys would allow her here. He then told me of course she is allowed in here, let me go get them..
>>>
>>> Though we had to put the bars up on the bed because Bliss jumped in the bed with me. I don't think she liked seeing mommy attached to a IV and heart monitor.
>>>
>>> She was fine though when she could touch my hand through the bars with her nose, and she knew I was okay.
>>>
>>> They had my girl there when I woke up too.
>>>
>>> This hospital was extremely fantastic with me.
>>>
>>> I hope this story gives some of you hhope. Though they don't have to allow your dog in places like pre-op, post-op OR, ICU, CCU etc some hospitals use common sense!
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/21/2018 6:40 AM, Melissa Allman via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> Hi all. Marion does raise some very important points here. Below is a link to some information on our web site about the rights of guide dog handlers in health care facilities.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.seeingeye.org/knowledge-center/rights--legal-information/gu
>>>> ide-dogs-in-hospitals.html
>>>>
>>>> One of the items referenced there is a self-evaluation checklist that health care providers can use to see if they are compliant with the ADA. It can be found at:
>>>> http://www.afb.org/info/programs-and-services/public-policy-center/civ
>>>> il-rights/advocacy-resources/ada-checklist-health-care-facilities-and-
>>>> service-providers/12345
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps and it is unfortunate that guide dog handlers continue to have these experiences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Melissa R. Allman
>>>> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations The Seeing Eye,
>>>> Inc.
>>>> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ?07963-0375 (mail)
>>>> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ?07960-3412 (deliveries)
>>>> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,???? Fax:? 973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:36 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: cindyray at gmail.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>
>>>> It is a burden of the people in charge to ask if the dog is a service dog. If your answer is yes, then the next question is what service does the dog perform. I hope you will all read Marion's message as it goes into considerable detail about this issue.
>>>> Thank you.
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 7:32 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>
>>>> Service dogs are not allowed in sterile environments; however, they must be truly sterile. Service dogs are not permitted in the OR or typically burn units where mask/gloves/other procedures are necessary. Exam rooms are definitely not sterile environments. Generally, if you can walk in with your normal clothes and shoes, your service dog can accompany you.
>>>> I believe Peter uses a guide dog and his wife uses a non-guiding service dog, correct me if I?m wrong. Most service dogs do not wear guide harnesses, and it is unfair to say that a dog must wear a guide harness or discrimination is acceptable.
>>>> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Retina
>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>>>>
>>>>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>>>>
>>>>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comc
>>>>> ast.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.
>>>>> com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.co
>>>> m
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye
>>>> .org _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/keribcu%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> Keri Svendsen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:21:54 -0500
>>> From: "NAGDU President" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>> Message-ID: <00ab01d49938$86babbb0$94303310$@verizon.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Danielle,
>>>
>>> You raise an important topic that many guide dog training programs erroneously assert - that your guide dog must be wearing its harness as a condition of legal access. The ADA and most state laws (I say "most" because I cannot categorically state "all" since I don't know each law) define a service animal as any animal (usually a dog) that has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability or some similar definition. Though some states do require the wearing of specific gear, these laws are unenforceable as they are incongruent with federal law and, if enforced, would violate the ADA's regulations. The essential element of a service dog is its training and that training can never be extracted, though it can be compromised by less than diligent handlers.
>>>
>>> I have frequently asserted that I sometimes take a walk with my dog out of harness, using my white cane for mobility. If I decide to stop into a store to pick up some water or do a bit of other shopping, my dog is still a service dog and I still have the same rights of access and the same responsibilities. Not all service animals require specific gear to do their work or tasks, as in an dog trained to pick up drop items, open doors, turn on lights, etc. Though our guide dogs do wear such specific gear, many programs train their dogs to leash guide, something that is very simple to teach once the guide work has been established. It is good to have these sorts of discussions, as it makes us better advocates by sharing the knowledge we need to do so.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>> Visit our website
>>> Follow us on Twitter
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:32 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Danielle Sykora
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>
>>> Service dogs are not allowed in sterile environments; however, they must be truly sterile. Service dogs are not permitted in the OR or typically burn units where mask/gloves/other procedures are necessary. Exam rooms are definitely not sterile environments. Generally, if you can walk in with your normal clothes and shoes, your service dog can accompany you.
>>> I believe Peter uses a guide dog and his wife uses a non-guiding service dog, correct me if I?m wrong. Most service dogs do not wear guide harnesses, and it is unfair to say that a dog must wear a guide harness or discrimination is acceptable.
>>> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Peter:
>>>>
>>>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Retina
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>>>
>>>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>>>
>>>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>>>
>>>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>>>
>>>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>>>
>>>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:59:30 -0500
>>> From: Marianne Denning <marianne at denningweb.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <CANZu-JgAzRqaTY7iLp98+SQC6=Gn+EGCJf99n3HXcb=e66Kaxw at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>
>>> I have used leash guiding on several occasions for many reasons.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:24 AM NAGDU President via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Danielle,
>>>>
>>>> You raise an important topic that many guide dog training programs
>>>> erroneously assert - that your guide dog must be wearing its harness as a
>>>> condition of legal access. The ADA and most state laws (I say "most"
>>>> because I cannot categorically state "all" since I don't know each law)
>>>> define a service animal as any animal (usually a dog) that has been
>>>> individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of a
>>>> person with a disability or some similar definition. Though some states do
>>>> require the wearing of specific gear, these laws are unenforceable as they
>>>> are incongruent with federal law and, if enforced, would violate the ADA's
>>>> regulations. The essential element of a service dog is its training and
>>>> that training can never be extracted, though it can be compromised by less
>>>> than diligent handlers.
>>>>
>>>> I have frequently asserted that I sometimes take a walk with my
>>>> dog out of harness, using my white cane for mobility. If I decide to stop
>>>> into a store to pick up some water or do a bit of other shopping, my dog is
>>>> still a service dog and I still have the same rights of access and the same
>>>> responsibilities. Not all service animals require specific gear to do their
>>>> work or tasks, as in an dog trained to pick up drop items, open doors, turn
>>>> on lights, etc. Though our guide dogs do wear such specific gear, many
>>>> programs train their dogs to leash guide, something that is very simple to
>>>> teach once the guide work has been established. It is good to have these
>>>> sorts of discussions, as it makes us better advocates by sharing the
>>>> knowledge we need to do so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>> Visit our website
>>>> Follow us on Twitter
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people
>>>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
>>>> you back.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle
>>>> Sykora via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:32 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Danielle Sykora
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>
>>>> Service dogs are not allowed in sterile environments; however, they must
>>>> be truly sterile. Service dogs are not permitted in the OR or typically
>>>> burn units where mask/gloves/other procedures are necessary. Exam rooms are
>>>> definitely not sterile environments. Generally, if you can walk in with
>>>> your normal clothes and shoes, your service dog can accompany you.
>>>> I believe Peter uses a guide dog and his wife uses a non-guiding service
>>>> dog, correct me if I?m wrong. Most service dogs do not wear guide
>>>> harnesses, and it is unfair to say that a dog must wear a guide harness or
>>>> discrimination is acceptable.
>>>> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany
>>>> a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient
>>>> safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware
>>>> that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical
>>>> proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not
>>>> accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog.
>>>> When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to
>>>> watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide
>>>> dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws
>>>> would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say
>>>> your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness,
>>>> how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy
>>>> service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals
>>>> cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a
>>>> government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs
>>>> is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my
>>>> life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is
>>>> important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Retina
>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire
>>>> about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On
>>>> entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door,
>>>> ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service
>>>> dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>>>>
>>>>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few
>>>> operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the
>>>> procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that
>>>> that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are
>>>> sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in
>>>> a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure
>>>> might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam
>>>> room.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an
>>>> issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not
>>>> specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost
>>>> formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork,
>>>> and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a
>>>> great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that
>>>> since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>>>>
>>>>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter
>>>> so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff
>>>> educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with
>>>> DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies
>>>> to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with
>>>> this specific type situation inform us?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/marianne%40denningweb.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:14:22 -0500
>>> From: Jenine Stanley <jeninems at icloud.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>> Message-ID: <D1C75B0D-2A3E-4718-B226-190AC784F522 at icloud.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> Marion is right of course. In fact, a sort of reverse discrimination is happening more and more. At least once a week I hear stories or receive calls about people with guide dogs who have been refused access or challenged severely because their dogs are not ?wearing vests or capes that say SERVICE DOG. No, the harness is not enough for some of these people and I would love to know where they are getting this little bit of misinformation. It?s too similar to be just one or two people in one or two locations.
>>>
>>> Conspiracy theorist? Who, me?
>>>
>>>> On Dec 21, 2018, at 9:21 AM, NAGDU President via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Danielle,
>>>>
>>>> You raise an important topic that many guide dog training programs erroneously assert - that your guide dog must be wearing its harness as a condition of legal access. The ADA and most state laws (I say "most" because I cannot categorically state "all" since I don't know each law) define a service animal as any animal (usually a dog) that has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability or some similar definition. Though some states do require the wearing of specific gear, these laws are unenforceable as they are incongruent with federal law and, if enforced, would violate the ADA's regulations. The essential element of a service dog is its training and that training can never be extracted, though it can be compromised by less than diligent handlers.
>>>>
>>>> I have frequently asserted that I sometimes take a walk with my dog out of harness, using my white cane for mobility. If I decide to stop into a store to pick up some water or do a bit of other shopping, my dog is still a service dog and I still have the same rights of access and the same responsibilities. Not all service animals require specific gear to do their work or tasks, as in an dog trained to pick up drop items, open doors, turn on lights, etc. Though our guide dogs do wear such specific gear, many programs train their dogs to leash guide, something that is very simple to teach once the guide work has been established. It is good to have these sorts of discussions, as it makes us better advocates by sharing the knowledge we need to do so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>> Visit our website
>>>> Follow us on Twitter
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:32 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Danielle Sykora
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>
>>>> Service dogs are not allowed in sterile environments; however, they must be truly sterile. Service dogs are not permitted in the OR or typically burn units where mask/gloves/other procedures are necessary. Exam rooms are definitely not sterile environments. Generally, if you can walk in with your normal clothes and shoes, your service dog can accompany you.
>>>> I believe Peter uses a guide dog and his wife uses a non-guiding service dog, correct me if I?m wrong. Most service dogs do not wear guide harnesses, and it is unfair to say that a dog must wear a guide harness or discrimination is acceptable.
>>>> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Retina
>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>>>>
>>>>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>>>>
>>>>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40icloud.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 7
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:47:05 -0500
>>> From: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>> Message-ID: <3D5F445E-4940-486B-9C35-EA787F435D2C at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> I in no way was implying that harnesses are required for legal access. My dogs in fact were both trained to leash guide, and while not a replacement for in harness guiding, I have tried to explain to many guide dog handlers on many occasions that my dog is just as much a service dog when leash guiding as when they are in harness. I also have friends who use service dogs that do not guide and therefore do not wear guide harnesses. I think it is very unfortunate when anyone spreads the false notion that real service dogs must wear guide harnesses. It is the training that matters, as well as a clearly responsible handler, not the gear.
>>>
>>>
>>> Danielle
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Dec 21, 2018, at 10:14 AM, Jenine Stanley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Marion is right of course. In fact, a sort of reverse discrimination is happening more and more. At least once a week I hear stories or receive calls about people with guide dogs who have been refused access or challenged severely because their dogs are not ?wearing vests or capes that say SERVICE DOG. No, the harness is not enough for some of these people and I would love to know where they are getting this little bit of misinformation. It?s too similar to be just one or two people in one or two locations.
>>>>
>>>> Conspiracy theorist? Who, me?
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 21, 2018, at 9:21 AM, NAGDU President via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Danielle,
>>>>>
>>>>> You raise an important topic that many guide dog training programs erroneously assert - that your guide dog must be wearing its harness as a condition of legal access. The ADA and most state laws (I say "most" because I cannot categorically state "all" since I don't know each law) define a service animal as any animal (usually a dog) that has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability or some similar definition. Though some states do require the wearing of specific gear, these laws are unenforceable as they are incongruent with federal law and, if enforced, would violate the ADA's regulations. The essential element of a service dog is its training and that training can never be extracted, though it can be compromised by less than diligent handlers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have frequently asserted that I sometimes take a walk with my dog out of harness, using my white cane for mobility. If I decide to stop into a store to pick up some water or do a bit of other shopping, my dog is still a service dog and I still have the same rights of access and the same responsibilities. Not all service animals require specific gear to do their work or tasks, as in an dog trained to pick up drop items, open doors, turn on lights, etc. Though our guide dogs do wear such specific gear, many programs train their dogs to leash guide, something that is very simple to teach once the guide work has been established. It is good to have these sorts of discussions, as it makes us better advocates by sharing the knowledge we need to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>>> Visit our website
>>>>> Follow us on Twitter
>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:32 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Danielle Sykora
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>>
>>>>> Service dogs are not allowed in sterile environments; however, they must be truly sterile. Service dogs are not permitted in the OR or typically burn units where mask/gloves/other procedures are necessary. Exam rooms are definitely not sterile environments. Generally, if you can walk in with your normal clothes and shoes, your service dog can accompany you.
>>>>> I believe Peter uses a guide dog and his wife uses a non-guiding service dog, correct me if I?m wrong. Most service dogs do not wear guide harnesses, and it is unfair to say that a dog must wear a guide harness or discrimination is acceptable.
>>>>> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Cc: Retina
>>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40icloud.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 8
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:23:28 -0500
>>> From: "Sandra Johnson" <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
>>> To: <NAGDU at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Our Access, ESAs and fake service animals
>>> Message-ID: <F14CE278DE2943C7AA9E64F0DCFCFCB2 at JOHNSON>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>
>>> Good Afternoon:
>>>
>>> Since we often discuss our access and the rapidly growing number of so called emotional support animals and fake service dogs I thought I would tell you of a conversation I just had with a bus driver.
>>>
>>> The driver told me about a woman who often rides with him along with her so called emotional support cat. He said his company supervisor told the drivers it is becoming very confusing as to what is a legitimate service animal and what is not. With this company Eva is the only qualified working dog registered to ride with a person with a disability. I know she is the only guide dog in my area. Since they do not have much experience with service animals it is more confusing to them. I informed him that according to the most recent definition from the DOJ, a service or guide animal is a dog, not cats or anything else. It is people like this crazy nut of a woman making it bad for all of us. I know she can have her emotional support cat in public housing but she shouldn?t have it on public transportation or in public accommodations such as stores, banks and medical buildings. It is no wonder people are so confused about the laws. The driver said he and his fellow drivers are afraid to refuse to transport her because she threatens to sue them for discrimination if they do not let her ride with her cat.
>>>
>>> It is clear that something must be done to stop all this ridiculous nonsense of ESAs and FAKE SERVICE DOGS, IT MUST STOP NOW!!!!! There should be very strong laws and those laws should be enforced so our right to access with our guide dogs is not compromised by all the ESA?s and FAKES!!!
>>>
>>> Sandra and the golden Eva, who is a REAL GUIDE DOG, NOT A FAKE!
>>> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> End of NAGDU Digest, Vol 165, Issue 15
>>> **************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 11:56:40 -0800
>> From: Retina <pwolf1 at wolfskills.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [NAGDU] A resource for situation of rejection by a doctor's
>> office
>> Message-ID: <FEAE0D4F-EC42-41B8-858D-899FC4085C7A at wolfskills.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I had just sent my last message to you all, and then found that my wife has come across an excellent resource. I will share it with you. It is from Disability Rights of North Carolina. Although from a state, it is about (federal) ADA for doctors? offices, so it ought to apply to all states. This is the first thing of it?s kind that I have found that was not only strong and clear, but also very carefully substantiated.
>>
>> At the end of the document, it lists specific court decisions, which is extremely helpful and clear as a demonstrating explanation of rules. And then, it contains a sample letter, which if one of us is faced again with this situation, can be used. The letter also contains footnotes, citing specific grounding sources for important points in this letter.
>>
>> Here is the link to the PDF document:
>>
>>> https://www.disabilityrightsnc.org/sites/default/files/Service Animal-MedicalSettings-Self-Advocacy Packet DRNC.pdf <https://www.disabilityrightsnc.org/sites/default/files/Service%20Animal-MedicalSettings-Self-Advocacy%20Packet%20DRNC.pdf>
>>
>> And here it is, in PDF form:
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Peter
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:30:59 -0500
>> From: Jenine Stanley <jeninems at icloud.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Our Access, ESAs and fake service animals
>> Message-ID: <75BC14C1-DFE9-4846-95C1-678F57396A8D at icloud.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Actually, under the transportation provisions, and I will get a citation if wanted, as I?m sure I have one somewhere, of the ADA, FTA covered properties, such as public transit systems, *may* allow a variety of species to be used as service animals for the purposes of transport. This reg/set of regs is similar to the ACAA and is above and beyond the Title III Public Accommodations provisions and is something that transit properties *may* do but many choose to not honor and that?s fine though I suppose technically someone could say that the *may* portion is least restrictive and hence must be followed. Sorry for the lack of citation on this holiday weekend. It?s a frustrating loophole though.
>>
>>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 4:25 PM, NAGDU President via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sandra,
>>>
>>> I would get in touch with the transportation authority's ADA officer and share the regulations with that person, asking them to work with you to help stop the abuses. Perhaps you can share that, should they refuse to carry this woman's emotional support cat and she files a complaint, they will advise her a cat is not a service animal. You may also want to share the NAGDU hotline number (888-624-3841) and/ or the DOJ's ADA hotline number (800-514-0301) and have them ask the question about service cats. Our transportation authority has a hands-off policy for drivers, allowing them to only ask if the dog is a service dog; however, I know they would not allow a cat or any other animal unless it were caged.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>> Visit our website
>>> Follow us on Twitter
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 2:23 PM
>>> To: NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Sandra Johnson
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Our Access, ESAs and fake service animals
>>>
>>> Good Afternoon:
>>>
>>> Since we often discuss our access and the rapidly growing number of so called emotional support animals and fake service dogs I thought I would tell you of a conversation I just had with a bus driver.
>>>
>>> The driver told me about a woman who often rides with him along with her so called emotional support cat. He said his company supervisor told the drivers it is becoming very confusing as to what is a legitimate service animal and what is not. With this company Eva is the only qualified working dog registered to ride with a person with a disability. I know she is the only guide dog in my area. Since they do not have much experience with service animals it is more confusing to them. I informed him that according to the most recent definition from the DOJ, a service or guide animal is a dog, not cats or anything else. It is people like this crazy nut of a woman making it bad for all of us. I know she can have her emotional support cat in public housing but she shouldn?t have it on public transportation or in public accommodations such as stores, banks and medical buildings. It is no wonder people are so confused about the laws. The driver said he and his fellow drivers are afraid to refuse to transport her because she threatens to sue them for discrimination if they do not let her ride with her cat.
>>>
>>> It is clear that something must be done to stop all this ridiculous nonsense of ESAs and FAKE SERVICE DOGS, IT MUST STOP NOW!!!!! There should be very strong laws and those laws should be enforced so our right to access with our guide dogs is not compromised by all the ESA?s and FAKES!!!
>>>
>>> Sandra and the golden Eva, who is a REAL GUIDE DOG, NOT A FAKE!
>>> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
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>>
>>
>>
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>> End of NAGDU Digest, Vol 165, Issue 17
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 12:46:16 -0800
> From: Retina <pwolf1 at wolfskills.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Identifying as service
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