[NAGDU] Foreign certifications and the related questions

Peter Wolf pwolf1 at wolfskills.com
Fri Jun 14 00:23:56 UTC 2019


Hi all.  I am with you on this Michael Hingson.  We who team with a dog for service have (or should have) impeccably trained and operating service dogs and be left alone to do our daily life.  Anyone who fakes a service dog should be fined and punished by law.  Faking is unethical and immoral and that specifically is what needs to be addressed.  Full stop.  

There are a few steps down from my soapbox, hang on a moment while I make my way back down.  Thanks friends.  

Danielle, I also appreciated what you said.  I don’t know what’s going on regarding variations in service dog behavior.  Each time - and I mean this - I cannot recall an exception - that we go through security at an airport and walk through a metal detector, we receive comments from TSA agents.  It is always about how well behaved the dogs are.  I mean, as if this is something new to them. What’s up with that?

 Between Metukah and me, we’ve had enough radiation doses to light a city.  So we only walk through metal detectors, not scanners.  This means that I have Metukah sit or stand outside the detector with me.  First, I give my folded cane to them to send through the X-ray machine.  Next, I always take off the gentle leader, because whatever metal it uses always does alarm.  I always send that one through. I generally strip anything else with hardware off and put it through, except that her collar never alarms, and the leash has brass, so it doesn’t either.  The leash loop end has an climber’s aluminum carabiner on it, which generally clips on my belt.  I just double the leash and clip the finer onto her somewhere so it won’t drag.  Then she waits while I walk through the detector, to the agent on the other side.  Then I call her.  She slowly walks through to me and stops.  A night ago, in security to board a jet back from Zurich, they wanted her collar off, too.  And so she wore nothing at all for this.  Andrea does the same with Kira, except no cane of course in her case.  When they walk through to us, that’s when the comments about good behavior begin, always coming from one to three agents, strangely, as if this is something new to them.  It always has us curious, what kind of a behavior range they must regularly encounter.  I’d be curious to hear what you guys have experienced with this too.  

Take care,
Peter







 
> On Jun 13, 2019, at 8:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>      failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals (Lyn Gwizdak)
>   2. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>      failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>      (mike at michaelhingson.com)
>   3. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>      failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>      (Danielle Sykora)
>   4. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>      failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals (Dan Weiner)
>   5. differences between male and female guide dogs (Madison Martin)
>   6. Re: differences between male and female guide dogs (Sherry Gomes)
>   7. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>      failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>      (sheila leigland)
>   8. Re: differences between male and female guide dogs
>      (Elizabeth Campbell)
>   9. Re: differences between male and female guide dogs (sunshine)
>  10. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>      failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals (Bonnie Mosen)
>  11. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>      failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals (Bonnie Mosen)
>  12. Fake service dogs: a positive story (Tara Briggs)
>  13. Re: differences between male and female guide dogs (Martine Abel)
>  14. Lab/goldens (Tracy Carcione)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:29:59 -0700
> From: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>
> To: NAGDU List Posting <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Bonnie Mosen <bonnie at mosen.org>, Tracy Carcione
> 	<carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAHTx+LPOGdduY8wi5hzdtswBZ_aRo9Hvt7d1=V2jYG6YnSF4_g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Hey Bonnie! Maybe we will have to go the certification route to address the
> issue of fakes here in the US. It is so out of control here. Do you have to
> show something that proves your dog is the real deal when you go to public
> places. Or is the medallion visible to the public? My dog has the Service
> Dog tag on his collar but nobody seems to notice it. I am always being
> asked if my dog is a service dog. Even when he is guiding me on the bus.
> Then the fakes get on and I dont hear the driver ask about some little
> thing that is in a doggie stroller.
> 
> Lyn and Aristotle who is a real Seeing Eye dog
> 
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:01 PM Bonnie Mosen via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Tracy and others. I can't speak for Australia, but I can tell you how
>> it works here in NZ.
>> I moved here six years ago with my then 6-yo black Lab, Lizzie from The
>> Seeing Eye.
>> In February, I trained with my current dog, Eclipse, at TSE.
>> NZ does have a small school which is a member of the International Guide
>> Dog Federation.
>> Any guide dog, whether it be owner trained or from a standard school has
>> to be certified to work in NZ by the NZ guide dog school.
>> This also allows follow-up from an NZ guide dog trainer as follow-up from
>> a US school isn't possible.
>> My understanding this is the case for all other service dogs. They have to
>> be certified by whatever school here in NZ would train that sort of dog.
>> From what I have heard, emotional support animals just aren't really
>> recognized here.
>> Thankfully, we don't have the issue of fake service animals yet, and I'm
>> hoping our strict certification is the reason why.
>> Eclipse wears a medallion from the NZ school, but I have never been
>> challenged on her legitimacy as a service animal.
>> I do have to have a follow-up annually with a guide dog instructor here,
>> and I can get assistance with learning new routes or with training issues.
>> They have been very accepting of my decision to continue to train with
>> dogs from the US, and I don't feel I have been treated any different.
>> Cheers
>> Bonnie and Eclipse
>> I know of one owner trainer here, and that person did have to have their
>> dog certified by the guide dog school.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2019 12:48 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>> failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> 
>> It's my understanding that, at least for guide dogs, it's different in
>> Australia, the UK, and lots of other countries, than it is here in the US.
>> There's only one guide dog school there, with several branches.  I'm not
>> sure owner-trained dogs are "legal".  It seems to me that the guide dog
>> school clamps down hard on any competition.  So, for guide dogs, the school
>> would issue an ID, and that would be that.
>> I'd really like to know if my understanding is correct.
>> Tracy
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:37 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>> failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> 
>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is a
>> good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically argues for
>> some type of certification essentially saying you need to have a drivers
>> license type of ID card to have a service dog. I guess In an ideal world,
>> businesses would kick out the wild pets. But I think that most businesses
>> are too scared to do that. My two concerns are these I want owner trainers
>> who have well-trained and well behaved service dogs to have the same rights
>> of access as anybody else. And there are dogs that are trained by fantastic
>> schools that turn into heathens once their owners get them home. How do we
>> handle that?
>> Tara
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on
>>> disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws
>>> mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and
>>> different proposals for reform:
>>> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep-u
>>> p-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of
>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar<
>> https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International
>> Distinguished Fellow<
>> https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039.0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.B7g_g7X_Ck4>,
>> Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>> Senior Lecturer
>>> 
>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>> The University of Queensland
>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>> 
>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB
>>> Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page
>>> <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>> 
>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>> 
>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the
>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of
>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any
>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is
>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and
>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email
>> do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:43:57 -0700
> From: <mike at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "'Lyn Gwizdak'" <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>,	"'Tracy Carcione'"
> 	<carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> Message-ID: <005c01d52146$6a509170$3ef1b450$@michaelhingson.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> 
> Certification is not the way to go in the U.S. The laws regarding guide and other service dogs are fine. What is needed is good education and legislation addressing fake service animals. I should not be burdened with any additional certification requirements to be able to take Alamo anywhere in the U.S.
> 
> The problem is not with trained, (by school or owner), service animals. The solution is NOT to put more demands on us. 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 9:30 AM
> To: NAGDU List Posting <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>; Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> 
> Hey Bonnie! Maybe we will have to go the certification route to address the issue of fakes here in the US. It is so out of control here. Do you have to show something that proves your dog is the real deal when you go to public places. Or is the medallion visible to the public? My dog has the Service Dog tag on his collar but nobody seems to notice it. I am always being asked if my dog is a service dog. Even when he is guiding me on the bus.
> Then the fakes get on and I dont hear the driver ask about some little thing that is in a doggie stroller.
> 
> Lyn and Aristotle who is a real Seeing Eye dog
> 
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:01 PM Bonnie Mosen via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Tracy and others. I can't speak for Australia, but I can tell you 
>> how it works here in NZ.
>> I moved here six years ago with my then 6-yo black Lab, Lizzie from 
>> The Seeing Eye.
>> In February, I trained with my current dog, Eclipse, at TSE.
>> NZ does have a small school which is a member of the International 
>> Guide Dog Federation.
>> Any guide dog, whether it be owner trained or from a standard school 
>> has to be certified to work in NZ by the NZ guide dog school.
>> This also allows follow-up from an NZ guide dog trainer as follow-up 
>> from a US school isn't possible.
>> My understanding this is the case for all other service dogs. They 
>> have to be certified by whatever school here in NZ would train that sort of dog.
>> From what I have heard, emotional support animals just aren't really 
>> recognized here.
>> Thankfully, we don't have the issue of fake service animals yet, and 
>> I'm hoping our strict certification is the reason why.
>> Eclipse wears a medallion from the NZ school, but I have never been 
>> challenged on her legitimacy as a service animal.
>> I do have to have a follow-up annually with a guide dog instructor 
>> here, and I can get assistance with learning new routes or with training issues.
>> They have been very accepting of my decision to continue to train with 
>> dogs from the US, and I don't feel I have been treated any different.
>> Cheers
>> Bonnie and Eclipse
>> I know of one owner trainer here, and that person did have to have 
>> their dog certified by the guide dog school.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via 
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2019 12:48 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 
>> < nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's 
>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> 
>> It's my understanding that, at least for guide dogs, it's different in 
>> Australia, the UK, and lots of other countries, than it is here in the US.
>> There's only one guide dog school there, with several branches.  I'm 
>> not sure owner-trained dogs are "legal".  It seems to me that the 
>> guide dog school clamps down hard on any competition.  So, for guide 
>> dogs, the school would issue an ID, and that would be that.
>> I'd really like to know if my understanding is correct.
>> Tracy
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs 
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:37 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's 
>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> 
>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is a 
>> good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically argues 
>> for some type of certification essentially saying you need to have a 
>> drivers license type of ID card to have a service dog. I guess In an 
>> ideal world, businesses would kick out the wild pets. But I think that 
>> most businesses are too scared to do that. My two concerns are these I 
>> want owner trainers who have well-trained and well behaved service 
>> dogs to have the same rights of access as anybody else. And there are 
>> dogs that are trained by fantastic schools that turn into heathens 
>> once their owners get them home. How do we handle that?
>> Tara
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on 
>>> disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws 
>>> mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and 
>>> different proposals for reform:
>>> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep
>>> -u p-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of 
>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar<
>> https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International
>> Distinguished Fellow<
>> https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q
>> =burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+inst
>> itute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039
>> .0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.
>> B7g_g7X_Ck4>,
>> Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>> Senior Lecturer
>>> 
>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>> The University of Queensland
>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>> 
>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB 
>>> Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page 
>>> <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>> 
>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>> 
>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the
>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University 
>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any 
>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is 
>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete 
>> and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in 
>> this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/thflute%40gmail.c
>>> om
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> et
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
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>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
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>> com
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:32:19 -0400
> From: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> Message-ID: <6CCA6DB2-BFC4-44F0-BD9B-E55032EB760A at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> 
> You really can not compare the US to countries like New Zealand or Australia. These countries as far as I know only have a few service dog programs. These programs, or atleast some of them, are willing to certify dogs trained elsewhere. Some other countries don't even recognize service dogs other than guide, hearing, or mobility dogs, which pretty much leave anyone needing medical alert or response out of luck. This is honestly probably one of the main reason why you may not see so many fake service dogs in other countries, but the people who truly need medical alert dogs are not the problem.
> There are literally dozens of service dog programs in the US. Some, despite being ADI certified, place a high percentage of some truly horribly behaved and trained dogs. Most service dog programs in general and definitely guide dog programs specifically are not going to certify dogs trained elsewhere. 
> Danielle 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jun 12, 2019, at 1:43 PM, Mike Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Certification is not the way to go in the U.S. The laws regarding guide and other service dogs are fine. What is needed is good education and legislation addressing fake service animals. I should not be burdened with any additional certification requirements to be able to take Alamo anywhere in the U.S.
>> 
>> The problem is not with trained, (by school or owner), service animals. The solution is NOT to put more demands on us. 
>> 
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 9:30 AM
>> To: NAGDU List Posting <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>; Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> 
>> Hey Bonnie! Maybe we will have to go the certification route to address the issue of fakes here in the US. It is so out of control here. Do you have to show something that proves your dog is the real deal when you go to public places. Or is the medallion visible to the public? My dog has the Service Dog tag on his collar but nobody seems to notice it. I am always being asked if my dog is a service dog. Even when he is guiding me on the bus.
>> Then the fakes get on and I dont hear the driver ask about some little thing that is in a doggie stroller.
>> 
>> Lyn and Aristotle who is a real Seeing Eye dog
>> 
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:01 PM Bonnie Mosen via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Tracy and others. I can't speak for Australia, but I can tell you 
>>> how it works here in NZ.
>>> I moved here six years ago with my then 6-yo black Lab, Lizzie from 
>>> The Seeing Eye.
>>> In February, I trained with my current dog, Eclipse, at TSE.
>>> NZ does have a small school which is a member of the International 
>>> Guide Dog Federation.
>>> Any guide dog, whether it be owner trained or from a standard school 
>>> has to be certified to work in NZ by the NZ guide dog school.
>>> This also allows follow-up from an NZ guide dog trainer as follow-up 
>>> from a US school isn't possible.
>>> My understanding this is the case for all other service dogs. They 
>>> have to be certified by whatever school here in NZ would train that sort of dog.
>>> From what I have heard, emotional support animals just aren't really 
>>> recognized here.
>>> Thankfully, we don't have the issue of fake service animals yet, and 
>>> I'm hoping our strict certification is the reason why.
>>> Eclipse wears a medallion from the NZ school, but I have never been 
>>> challenged on her legitimacy as a service animal.
>>> I do have to have a follow-up annually with a guide dog instructor 
>>> here, and I can get assistance with learning new routes or with training issues.
>>> They have been very accepting of my decision to continue to train with 
>>> dogs from the US, and I don't feel I have been treated any different.
>>> Cheers
>>> Bonnie and Eclipse
>>> I know of one owner trainer here, and that person did have to have 
>>> their dog certified by the guide dog school.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via 
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2019 12:48 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 
>>> < nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's 
>>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>> 
>>> It's my understanding that, at least for guide dogs, it's different in 
>>> Australia, the UK, and lots of other countries, than it is here in the US.
>>> There's only one guide dog school there, with several branches.  I'm 
>>> not sure owner-trained dogs are "legal".  It seems to me that the 
>>> guide dog school clamps down hard on any competition.  So, for guide 
>>> dogs, the school would issue an ID, and that would be that.
>>> I'd really like to know if my understanding is correct.
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs 
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:37 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's 
>>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>> 
>>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is a 
>>> good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically argues 
>>> for some type of certification essentially saying you need to have a 
>>> drivers license type of ID card to have a service dog. I guess In an 
>>> ideal world, businesses would kick out the wild pets. But I think that 
>>> most businesses are too scared to do that. My two concerns are these I 
>>> want owner trainers who have well-trained and well behaved service 
>>> dogs to have the same rights of access as anybody else. And there are 
>>> dogs that are trained by fantastic schools that turn into heathens 
>>> once their owners get them home. How do we handle that?
>>> Tara
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on 
>>>> disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws 
>>>> mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and 
>>>> different proposals for reform:
>>>> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep
>>>> -u p-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of 
>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar<
>>> https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International
>>> Distinguished Fellow<
>>> https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q
>>> =burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+inst
>>> itute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039
>>> .0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.
>>> B7g_g7X_Ck4>,
>>> Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>> 
>>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>>> The University of Queensland
>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>> 
>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB 
>>>> Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page 
>>>> <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>>> 
>>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>> 
>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the
>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University 
>>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any 
>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is 
>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete 
>>> and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in 
>>> this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/thflute%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.n
>>> et
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bonnie%40mosen.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/gwizdaklyn%40gmail.
>>> com
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhingson.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:59:56 -0400
> From: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> Message-ID: <8b4fffff-c884-de80-cdf9-0f2c0a4197cc at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> quick question, bonny, what is the process like if you have a U.S. dog 
> and you are certified, do they do something to test your training or the 
> dog's training or is the fact that you have a dog from a US school, 
> member of the International Guide Dog federation, enough to have them 
> certify you?
> 
> 
> Yours,
> 
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> On 6/12/2019 2:32 PM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU wrote:
>> You really can not compare the US to countries like New Zealand or Australia. These countries as far as I know only have a few service dog programs. These programs, or atleast some of them, are willing to certify dogs trained elsewhere. Some other countries don't even recognize service dogs other than guide, hearing, or mobility dogs, which pretty much leave anyone needing medical alert or response out of luck. This is honestly probably one of the main reason why you may not see so many fake service dogs in other countries, but the people who truly need medical alert dogs are not the problem.
>> There are literally dozens of service dog programs in the US. Some, despite being ADI certified, place a high percentage of some truly horribly behaved and trained dogs. Most service dog programs in general and definitely guide dog programs specifically are not going to certify dogs trained elsewhere.
>> Danielle
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 12, 2019, at 1:43 PM, Mike Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Certification is not the way to go in the U.S. The laws regarding guide and other service dogs are fine. What is needed is good education and legislation addressing fake service animals. I should not be burdened with any additional certification requirements to be able to take Alamo anywhere in the U.S.
>>> 
>>> The problem is not with trained, (by school or owner), service animals. The solution is NOT to put more demands on us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best Regards,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Michael Hingson
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 9:30 AM
>>> To: NAGDU List Posting <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>; Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>> 
>>> Hey Bonnie! Maybe we will have to go the certification route to address the issue of fakes here in the US. It is so out of control here. Do you have to show something that proves your dog is the real deal when you go to public places. Or is the medallion visible to the public? My dog has the Service Dog tag on his collar but nobody seems to notice it. I am always being asked if my dog is a service dog. Even when he is guiding me on the bus.
>>> Then the fakes get on and I dont hear the driver ask about some little thing that is in a doggie stroller.
>>> 
>>> Lyn and Aristotle who is a real Seeing Eye dog
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:01 PM Bonnie Mosen via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Tracy and others. I can't speak for Australia, but I can tell you
>>>> how it works here in NZ.
>>>> I moved here six years ago with my then 6-yo black Lab, Lizzie from
>>>> The Seeing Eye.
>>>> In February, I trained with my current dog, Eclipse, at TSE.
>>>> NZ does have a small school which is a member of the International
>>>> Guide Dog Federation.
>>>> Any guide dog, whether it be owner trained or from a standard school
>>>> has to be certified to work in NZ by the NZ guide dog school.
>>>> This also allows follow-up from an NZ guide dog trainer as follow-up
>>>> from a US school isn't possible.
>>>> My understanding this is the case for all other service dogs. They
>>>> have to be certified by whatever school here in NZ would train that sort of dog.
>>>> From what I have heard, emotional support animals just aren't really
>>>> recognized here.
>>>> Thankfully, we don't have the issue of fake service animals yet, and
>>>> I'm hoping our strict certification is the reason why.
>>>> Eclipse wears a medallion from the NZ school, but I have never been
>>>> challenged on her legitimacy as a service animal.
>>>> I do have to have a follow-up annually with a guide dog instructor
>>>> here, and I can get assistance with learning new routes or with training issues.
>>>> They have been very accepting of my decision to continue to train with
>>>> dogs from the US, and I don't feel I have been treated any different.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Bonnie and Eclipse
>>>> I know of one owner trainer here, and that person did have to have
>>>> their dog certified by the guide dog school.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2019 12:48 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> < nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
>>>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>>> 
>>>> It's my understanding that, at least for guide dogs, it's different in
>>>> Australia, the UK, and lots of other countries, than it is here in the US.
>>>> There's only one guide dog school there, with several branches.  I'm
>>>> not sure owner-trained dogs are "legal".  It seems to me that the
>>>> guide dog school clamps down hard on any competition.  So, for guide
>>>> dogs, the school would issue an ID, and that would be that.
>>>> I'd really like to know if my understanding is correct.
>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:37 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
>>>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is a
>>>> good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically argues
>>>> for some type of certification essentially saying you need to have a
>>>> drivers license type of ID card to have a service dog. I guess In an
>>>> ideal world, businesses would kick out the wild pets. But I think that
>>>> most businesses are too scared to do that. My two concerns are these I
>>>> want owner trainers who have well-trained and well behaved service
>>>> dogs to have the same rights of access as anybody else. And there are
>>>> dogs that are trained by fantastic schools that turn into heathens
>>>> once their owners get them home. How do we handle that?
>>>> Tara
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on
>>>>> disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws
>>>>> mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and
>>>>> different proposals for reform:
>>>>> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep
>>>>> -u p-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of
>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar<
>>>> https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International
>>>> Distinguished Fellow<
>>>> https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q
>>>> =burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+inst
>>>> itute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039
>>>> .0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.
>>>> B7g_g7X_Ck4>,
>>>> Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>>> 
>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>>>> The University of Queensland
>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>>> 
>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB
>>>>> Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page
>>>>> <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>>>> 
>>>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>>> 
>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the
>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University
>>>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any
>>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is
>>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete
>>>> and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in
>>>> this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/thflute%40gmail.c
>>>>> om
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.n
>>>> et
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bonnie%40mosen.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/gwizdaklyn%40gmail.
>>>> com
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhingson.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 15:53:12 -0500
> From: "Madison Martin" <maddymartin at mymts.net>
> To: <friends at guidedogs.groups.io>, <GuideDogs at yahoogroups.com>,
> 	<chat at guidedogusersinc.org>, "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National
> 	Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] differences between male and female guide dogs
> Message-ID: <000001d52160$da9b5e50$8fd21af0$@mymts.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Hi all,
> I was just wondering out of curiosity for those of you who have had both
> male and female dogs as guide dogs what differences (other then size) have
> you noticed between the two genders? Please be 100% honest. If you want to
> write me privately then go ahead. I've only ever lived with female dogs so I
> can't comment. Look forward to hearing back from you guys with your
> thoughts! Thanks
> Madison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 21:27:10 +0000
> From: Sherry Gomes <sherry.gomes at outlook.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] differences between male and female guide dogs
> Message-ID:
> 	<CY4PR02MB2360A024B894A0F5FB674A9F86EC0 at CY4PR02MB2360.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> I've had two male dogs and several females, and to me, there isn't any specific difference, not temperament or work style or anything like that. Interestingly, the most stubborn dog I ever had was a male, and the softest gentlest dog I ever had was a male. The males I had weren't particularly large either, one was about 22 inches and the other was 23 inches. I would be happy with either gender in my next dog.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Madison Martin via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 2:53 PM
> To: friends at guidedogs.groups.io; GuideDogs at yahoogroups.com; chat at guidedogusersinc.org; 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Madison Martin <maddymartin at mymts.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] differences between male and female guide dogs
> 
> Hi all,
> I was just wondering out of curiosity for those of you who have had both male and female dogs as guide dogs what differences (other then size) have you noticed between the two genders? Please be 100% honest. If you want to write me privately then go ahead. I've only ever lived with female dogs so I can't comment. Look forward to hearing back from you guys with your thoughts! Thanks Madison
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sherry.gomes%40outlook.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 19:37:06 -0600
> From: sheila leigland <sheila.leigland at gmail.com>
> To: Mike Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> Message-ID: <5e83f2d8-31a1-c9cb-692d-c91de603a6b1 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> Michael I'm in complete agreement with you. There are enough laws in place
> 
> On 6/12/2019 11:43 AM, Mike Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
>> Certification is not the way to go in the U.S. The laws regarding guide and other service dogs are fine. What is needed is good education and legislation addressing fake service animals. I should not be burdened with any additional certification requirements to be able to take Alamo anywhere in the U.S.
>> 
>> The problem is not with trained, (by school or owner), service animals. The solution is NOT to put more demands on us.
>> 
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 9:30 AM
>> To: NAGDU List Posting <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>; Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> 
>> Hey Bonnie! Maybe we will have to go the certification route to address the issue of fakes here in the US. It is so out of control here. Do you have to show something that proves your dog is the real deal when you go to public places. Or is the medallion visible to the public? My dog has the Service Dog tag on his collar but nobody seems to notice it. I am always being asked if my dog is a service dog. Even when he is guiding me on the bus.
>> Then the fakes get on and I dont hear the driver ask about some little thing that is in a doggie stroller.
>> 
>> Lyn and Aristotle who is a real Seeing Eye dog
>> 
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:01 PM Bonnie Mosen via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Tracy and others. I can't speak for Australia, but I can tell you
>>> how it works here in NZ.
>>> I moved here six years ago with my then 6-yo black Lab, Lizzie from
>>> The Seeing Eye.
>>> In February, I trained with my current dog, Eclipse, at TSE.
>>> NZ does have a small school which is a member of the International
>>> Guide Dog Federation.
>>> Any guide dog, whether it be owner trained or from a standard school
>>> has to be certified to work in NZ by the NZ guide dog school.
>>> This also allows follow-up from an NZ guide dog trainer as follow-up
>>> from a US school isn't possible.
>>> My understanding this is the case for all other service dogs. They
>>> have to be certified by whatever school here in NZ would train that sort of dog.
>>> From what I have heard, emotional support animals just aren't really
>>> recognized here.
>>> Thankfully, we don't have the issue of fake service animals yet, and
>>> I'm hoping our strict certification is the reason why.
>>> Eclipse wears a medallion from the NZ school, but I have never been
>>> challenged on her legitimacy as a service animal.
>>> I do have to have a follow-up annually with a guide dog instructor
>>> here, and I can get assistance with learning new routes or with training issues.
>>> They have been very accepting of my decision to continue to train with
>>> dogs from the US, and I don't feel I have been treated any different.
>>> Cheers
>>> Bonnie and Eclipse
>>> I know of one owner trainer here, and that person did have to have
>>> their dog certified by the guide dog school.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2019 12:48 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> < nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
>>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>> 
>>> It's my understanding that, at least for guide dogs, it's different in
>>> Australia, the UK, and lots of other countries, than it is here in the US.
>>> There's only one guide dog school there, with several branches.  I'm
>>> not sure owner-trained dogs are "legal".  It seems to me that the
>>> guide dog school clamps down hard on any competition.  So, for guide
>>> dogs, the school would issue an ID, and that would be that.
>>> I'd really like to know if my understanding is correct.
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:37 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
>>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>> 
>>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is a
>>> good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically argues
>>> for some type of certification essentially saying you need to have a
>>> drivers license type of ID card to have a service dog. I guess In an
>>> ideal world, businesses would kick out the wild pets. But I think that
>>> most businesses are too scared to do that. My two concerns are these I
>>> want owner trainers who have well-trained and well behaved service
>>> dogs to have the same rights of access as anybody else. And there are
>>> dogs that are trained by fantastic schools that turn into heathens
>>> once their owners get them home. How do we handle that?
>>> Tara
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on
>>>> disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws
>>>> mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and
>>>> different proposals for reform:
>>>> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep
>>>> -u p-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of
>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar<
>>> https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International
>>> Distinguished Fellow<
>>> https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q
>>> =burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+inst
>>> itute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039
>>> .0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.
>>> B7g_g7X_Ck4>,
>>> Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>> 
>>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>>> The University of Queensland
>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>> 
>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB
>>>> Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page
>>>> <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>>> 
>>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>> 
>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the
>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University
>>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any
>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is
>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete
>>> and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in
>>> this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/thflute%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.n
>>> et
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bonnie%40mosen.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/gwizdaklyn%40gmail.
>>> com
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhingson.com
>> 
>> 
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>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sheila.leigland%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 21:34:07 -0500
> From: Elizabeth Campbell <batescampbell at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] differences between male and female guide dogs
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAOz8cXma9YEjcUyS8PAxA6C2cBe=42VQ8FaS+osSGJxZatvDXg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> HI Madison, I really haven't noticed any significant differences between
> male and female dogs when it comes to guiding. I've worked with three dogs.
> Two of my dogs were males,and my current dog is a female yellow lab. Each
> dog had a unique personality.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM Madison Martin via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> I was just wondering out of curiosity for those of you who have had both
>> male and female dogs as guide dogs what differences (other then size) have
>> you noticed between the two genders? Please be 100% honest. If you want to
>> write me privately then go ahead. I've only ever lived with female dogs so
>> I
>> can't comment. Look forward to hearing back from you guys with your
>> thoughts! Thanks
>> Madison
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> 
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/batescampbell%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Elizabeth Campbell
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 21:51:56 -0500
> From: sunshine <halogirl817 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] differences between male and female guide dogs
> Message-ID: <B45EF4A0-0710-4DD4-AF05-464B7166299A at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
> 
> I have had two mail dogs -- one a golden and the other a black lab. My others have been females. As far as work is concerned, my dogs, male or female have done well. I must say my male golden was always eager to please. He loved to cuddle and was with me all the time. My lexie was very much like him and she was like my Indy. Personalities in dogs are different, but I found the work to be pretty much the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunshine
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone XR
> 
>> On Jun 12, 2019, at 9:34 PM, Elizabeth Campbell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> HI Madison, I really haven't noticed any significant differences between
>> male and female dogs when it comes to guiding. I've worked with three dogs.
>> Two of my dogs were males,and my current dog is a female yellow lab. Each
>> dog had a unique personality.
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM Madison Martin via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> I was just wondering out of curiosity for those of you who have had both
>>> male and female dogs as guide dogs what differences (other then size) have
>>> you noticed between the two genders? Please be 100% honest. If you want to
>>> write me privately then go ahead. I've only ever lived with female dogs so
>>> I
>>> can't comment. Look forward to hearing back from you guys with your
>>> thoughts! Thanks
>>> Madison
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> 
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/batescampbell%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Elizabeth Campbell
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/halogirl817%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:38:37 +1200
> From: "Bonnie Mosen" <bonnie at mosen.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> Message-ID: <000001d52199$7def10f0$79cd32d0$@mosen.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi Dan. When I moved here, TSE got in contact with the NZ school.
> All they really do is follow you on a route or two to make sure the dog is working safely, and they do this once a year. 
> I believe they do this with any guide coming into the country from an IGDF programme. I'm not sure how non programme trained dogs are handled or dogs from non IDGF certified programmes.
> Bonnie 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, 13 June 2019 7:00 AM
> To: Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> 
> quick question, bonny, what is the process like if you have a U.S. dog and you are certified, do they do something to test your training or the dog's training or is the fact that you have a dog from a US school, member of the International Guide Dog federation, enough to have them certify you?
> 
> 
> Yours,
> 
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> On 6/12/2019 2:32 PM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU wrote:
>> You really can not compare the US to countries like New Zealand or Australia. These countries as far as I know only have a few service dog programs. These programs, or atleast some of them, are willing to certify dogs trained elsewhere. Some other countries don't even recognize service dogs other than guide, hearing, or mobility dogs, which pretty much leave anyone needing medical alert or response out of luck. This is honestly probably one of the main reason why you may not see so many fake service dogs in other countries, but the people who truly need medical alert dogs are not the problem.
>> There are literally dozens of service dog programs in the US. Some, despite being ADI certified, place a high percentage of some truly horribly behaved and trained dogs. Most service dog programs in general and definitely guide dog programs specifically are not going to certify dogs trained elsewhere.
>> Danielle
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 12, 2019, at 1:43 PM, Mike Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Certification is not the way to go in the U.S. The laws regarding guide and other service dogs are fine. What is needed is good education and legislation addressing fake service animals. I should not be burdened with any additional certification requirements to be able to take Alamo anywhere in the U.S.
>>> 
>>> The problem is not with trained, (by school or owner), service animals. The solution is NOT to put more demands on us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best Regards,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Michael Hingson
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak via 
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 9:30 AM
>>> To: NAGDU List Posting <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>; Tracy Carcione 
>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's 
>>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>> 
>>> Hey Bonnie! Maybe we will have to go the certification route to address the issue of fakes here in the US. It is so out of control here. Do you have to show something that proves your dog is the real deal when you go to public places. Or is the medallion visible to the public? My dog has the Service Dog tag on his collar but nobody seems to notice it. I am always being asked if my dog is a service dog. Even when he is guiding me on the bus.
>>> Then the fakes get on and I dont hear the driver ask about some little thing that is in a doggie stroller.
>>> 
>>> Lyn and Aristotle who is a real Seeing Eye dog
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:01 PM Bonnie Mosen via NAGDU 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Tracy and others. I can't speak for Australia, but I can tell you 
>>>> how it works here in NZ.
>>>> I moved here six years ago with my then 6-yo black Lab, Lizzie from 
>>>> The Seeing Eye.
>>>> In February, I trained with my current dog, Eclipse, at TSE.
>>>> NZ does have a small school which is a member of the International 
>>>> Guide Dog Federation.
>>>> Any guide dog, whether it be owner trained or from a standard school 
>>>> has to be certified to work in NZ by the NZ guide dog school.
>>>> This also allows follow-up from an NZ guide dog trainer as follow-up 
>>>> from a US school isn't possible.
>>>> My understanding this is the case for all other service dogs. They 
>>>> have to be certified by whatever school here in NZ would train that sort of dog.
>>>> From what I have heard, emotional support animals just aren't 
>>>> really recognized here.
>>>> Thankfully, we don't have the issue of fake service animals yet, and 
>>>> I'm hoping our strict certification is the reason why.
>>>> Eclipse wears a medallion from the NZ school, but I have never been 
>>>> challenged on her legitimacy as a service animal.
>>>> I do have to have a follow-up annually with a guide dog instructor 
>>>> here, and I can get assistance with learning new routes or with training issues.
>>>> They have been very accepting of my decision to continue to train 
>>>> with dogs from the US, and I don't feel I have been treated any different.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Bonnie and Eclipse
>>>> I know of one owner trainer here, and that person did have to have 
>>>> their dog certified by the guide dog school.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione 
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2019 12:48 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> < nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's 
>>>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>>> 
>>>> It's my understanding that, at least for guide dogs, it's different 
>>>> in Australia, the UK, and lots of other countries, than it is here in the US.
>>>> There's only one guide dog school there, with several branches.  I'm 
>>>> not sure owner-trained dogs are "legal".  It seems to me that the 
>>>> guide dog school clamps down hard on any competition.  So, for guide 
>>>> dogs, the school would issue an ID, and that would be that.
>>>> I'd really like to know if my understanding is correct.
>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara 
>>>> Briggs via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:37 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's 
>>>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is 
>>>> a good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically 
>>>> argues for some type of certification essentially saying you need to 
>>>> have a drivers license type of ID card to have a service dog. I 
>>>> guess In an ideal world, businesses would kick out the wild pets. 
>>>> But I think that most businesses are too scared to do that. My two 
>>>> concerns are these I want owner trainers who have well-trained and 
>>>> well behaved service dogs to have the same rights of access as 
>>>> anybody else. And there are dogs that are trained by fantastic 
>>>> schools that turn into heathens once their owners get them home. How do we handle that?
>>>> Tara
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU 
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws 
>>>>> on disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the 
>>>>> laws mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and 
>>>>> different proposals for reform:
>>>>> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-kee
>>>>> p -u p-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of 
>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar<
>>>> https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International
>>>> Distinguished Fellow<
>>>> https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw
>>>> &q 
>>>> =burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+in
>>>> st
>>>> itute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.60
>>>> itute+39
>>>> .0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.
>>>> B7g_g7X_Ck4>,
>>>> Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>>> 
>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>>>> The University of Queensland
>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>>> 
>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E 
>>>>> p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB 
>>>>> Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page 
>>>>> <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>>>> 
>>>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>>> 
>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for 
>>>>> the
>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University 
>>>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that 
>>>> any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this 
>>>> email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, 
>>>> please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions 
>>>> expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>> for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/thflute%40gmail.
>>>>> c
>>>>> om
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access
>>>> .n
>>>> et
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bonnie%40mosen.or
>>>> g
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/gwizdaklyn%40gmail.
>>>> com
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhing
>>> son.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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>>> com
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc
>> .net
>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bonnie%40mosen.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 16:15:54 +1200
> From: "Bonnie Mosen" <bonnie at mosen.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: <mike at michaelhingson.com>,	"'Tracy Carcione'"
> 	<carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> Message-ID: <000801d5219e$b5a115c0$20e34140$@mosen.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi Mike and all.
> I agree in part with certification not being the way to go in the US, but until businesses etc start enforcing the laws already on the books, fake or out-of-control service animals will continue to be a problem. 
> Sadly, the US is such a sue happy society businesses are afraid to say or do anything.
> I personally don't mind a well-behaved animal in a public place, but the key word is well-behaved. 
> Whether a service animal comes from a programme or is owner trained if it isn't behaving it has no rights in public or anywhere else, but I don't ever see most places enforcing this.
> A friend of mine's well trained guide dog has been jumped several times at a local store, by a dog the man claims he is training. He does nothing to control the dog and the store does nothing either saying it's the law for the dog to be there.
> At least the airlines are starting to crack down, so I suppose that' a start. 
> Cheers
> Bonnie 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Mike Hingson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, 13 June 2019 5:44 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: mike at michaelhingson.com; 'Tracy Carcione' <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> 
> Certification is not the way to go in the U.S. The laws regarding guide and other service dogs are fine. What is needed is good education and legislation addressing fake service animals. I should not be burdened with any additional certification requirements to be able to take Alamo anywhere in the U.S.
> 
> The problem is not with trained, (by school or owner), service animals. The solution is NOT to put more demands on us. 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 9:30 AM
> To: NAGDU List Posting <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>; Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
> 
> Hey Bonnie! Maybe we will have to go the certification route to address the issue of fakes here in the US. It is so out of control here. Do you have to show something that proves your dog is the real deal when you go to public places. Or is the medallion visible to the public? My dog has the Service Dog tag on his collar but nobody seems to notice it. I am always being asked if my dog is a service dog. Even when he is guiding me on the bus.
> Then the fakes get on and I dont hear the driver ask about some little thing that is in a doggie stroller.
> 
> Lyn and Aristotle who is a real Seeing Eye dog
> 
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:01 PM Bonnie Mosen via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Tracy and others. I can't speak for Australia, but I can tell you 
>> how it works here in NZ.
>> I moved here six years ago with my then 6-yo black Lab, Lizzie from 
>> The Seeing Eye.
>> In February, I trained with my current dog, Eclipse, at TSE.
>> NZ does have a small school which is a member of the International 
>> Guide Dog Federation.
>> Any guide dog, whether it be owner trained or from a standard school 
>> has to be certified to work in NZ by the NZ guide dog school.
>> This also allows follow-up from an NZ guide dog trainer as follow-up 
>> from a US school isn't possible.
>> My understanding this is the case for all other service dogs. They 
>> have to be certified by whatever school here in NZ would train that sort of dog.
>> From what I have heard, emotional support animals just aren't really 
>> recognized here.
>> Thankfully, we don't have the issue of fake service animals yet, and 
>> I'm hoping our strict certification is the reason why.
>> Eclipse wears a medallion from the NZ school, but I have never been 
>> challenged on her legitimacy as a service animal.
>> I do have to have a follow-up annually with a guide dog instructor 
>> here, and I can get assistance with learning new routes or with training issues.
>> They have been very accepting of my decision to continue to train with 
>> dogs from the US, and I don't feel I have been treated any different.
>> Cheers
>> Bonnie and Eclipse
>> I know of one owner trainer here, and that person did have to have 
>> their dog certified by the guide dog school.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via 
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2019 12:48 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 
>> < nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's 
>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> 
>> It's my understanding that, at least for guide dogs, it's different in 
>> Australia, the UK, and lots of other countries, than it is here in the US.
>> There's only one guide dog school there, with several branches.  I'm 
>> not sure owner-trained dogs are "legal".  It seems to me that the 
>> guide dog school clamps down hard on any competition.  So, for guide 
>> dogs, the school would issue an ID, and that would be that.
>> I'd really like to know if my understanding is correct.
>> Tracy
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs 
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:37 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's 
>> laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> 
>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is a 
>> good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically argues 
>> for some type of certification essentially saying you need to have a 
>> drivers license type of ID card to have a service dog. I guess In an 
>> ideal world, businesses would kick out the wild pets. But I think that 
>> most businesses are too scared to do that. My two concerns are these I 
>> want owner trainers who have well-trained and well behaved service 
>> dogs to have the same rights of access as anybody else. And there are 
>> dogs that are trained by fantastic schools that turn into heathens 
>> once their owners get them home. How do we handle that?
>> Tara
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on 
>>> disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws 
>>> mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and 
>>> different proposals for reform:
>>> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep
>>> -u p-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of 
>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar<
>> https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International
>> Distinguished Fellow<
>> https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q
>> =burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+inst
>> itute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039
>> .0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.
>> B7g_g7X_Ck4>,
>> Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>> Senior Lecturer
>>> 
>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>> The University of Queensland
>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>> 
>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB 
>>> Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page 
>>> <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>> 
>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>> 
>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the
>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University 
>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any 
>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is 
>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete 
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>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 23:04:23 -0600
> From: Tara Briggs <thflute at gmail.com>
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [NAGDU] Fake service dogs: a positive story
> Message-ID: <6AB5D188-F7AA-4D7D-B0F3-7722C82EB9A5 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> 
> Hi all, the recent discussion of fake service dogs has prompted me to tell a positive story I had on this issue. My husband and I enjoyed taking our daughters to a local kids museum. About a month or so ago, we met with another family and we?re enjoying a day of fun at the museum. It?s always a bit disconcerting when I am with my service dog and I hear another dog growling. That?s what happened. To make a long story short, while I was at the kids museum some people had come in with a supposed   service animal. The dog started growling and acting aggressively towards my dog. My friend and I went and talk to the staff and told them what was going on. Fortunately, the staff had made some observations of the situation. The family tried to say that my dog was the aggressive one. Thankfully, the staff clearly was able to observe this is not the case. The family was told that they had to leave with their service dog because they?re service dog  was acting aggressively towards another dog. They left. I was so thankful to the staff of this museum! Hopefully, it will be a long time, or perhaps never, before   that family thinks of taking their poorly behaved dog  into public again. Perhaps it is a service dog. However, it doesn?t get to be in public if it can?t behave. That is what we need businesses to do, they need to act like this kids museum. I think that businesses and people with disabilities who have well-behaved service dog should work together. We should start a social media campaign. We should have videos of well-behaved service dogs. This could include Guy dogs, dogs for people who are deaf and hard of hearing, assistance dogs for people who use wheelchairs, and psychiatric service dogs, oh, and we should include dogs for people with epilepsy. We should show those dogs  behaving well in public juxtaposed to dogs that don?t behave well in public. And we need to show videos of the businesses being welcoming to the service dogs  that are well-behaved and turning away the suppose it service dogs that are  not well behaved. Even if it?s a guide  dog. If the dog can?t behave out it goes!
> Tara
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 18:33:53 +1200
> From: "Martine Abel" <martine.the1 at xtra.co.nz>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>,	<friends at guidedogs.groups.io>,
> 	<GuideDogs at yahoogroups.com>,	<chat at guidedogusersinc.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] differences between male and female guide dogs
> Message-ID: <004301d521b1$fa118d80$ee34a880$@xtra.co.nz>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Hi all,
> I don't find differences in work ethic or keenness, but other interesting
> differences:
> My first dog was a Lab Retriever Golden Retriever cross. She was very
> destination focussed, but I got told that the Goldens have gotten that
> stubbornness and destination focussed-nes rather than that it was a gender
> thing.
> My two boys since were more  laid back yet working well.
> There was a marked difference though when I let them off to do free running.
> The girl would do her business and return to me while the boys would spend
> much longer, marking their territory wherever they could.
> 
> Cheers
> Martine
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Madison Martin
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, 13 June 2019 8:53 a.m.
> To: friends at guidedogs.groups.io; GuideDogs at yahoogroups.com;
> chat at guidedogusersinc.org; 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
> Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Madison Martin <maddymartin at mymts.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] differences between male and female guide dogs
> 
> Hi all,
> I was just wondering out of curiosity for those of you who have had both
> male and female dogs as guide dogs what differences (other then size) have
> you noticed between the two genders? Please be 100% honest. If you want to
> write me privately then go ahead. I've only ever lived with female dogs so I
> can't comment. Look forward to hearing back from you guys with your
> thoughts! Thanks Madison
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 07:43:46 -0400
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Lab/goldens
> Message-ID: <006501d521dd$42b513b0$c81f3b10$@access.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Hi Martine.
> That's interesting that your lab/golden was very destination-focussed.
> Krokus is also a lab/golden, and he is the same way.  It can be hard to get
> him to go past one of our usual destinations.  
> Sometimes I try to guess which traits are golden, and which are just him.  I
> think his extreme caution might be golden, as well as his mischievousness.
> I think it's totally golden to grab my shoe and dance with it.
> Tracy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of NAGDU Digest, Vol 171, Issue 10
> **************************************





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