[NAGDU] Crate training

Thu Mar 7 17:17:28 UTC 2019

I can certainly understand the frustration with a guide dog that doesn’t have house behavior as well as you would expect. And of course, it’s frustrating  to have to teach the dog something they theoretically should have already learned. I respect people‘s decisions to use whatever method they want with their guide dogs. If the dog does well  free in the house or on tie down, then of course don’t use a crate if you don’t like them. 
My point in my original message though is that it is a different story for puppy raisers. It’s great if you get an adult dog from a program with perfect house behavior from day one and ideally this would be the case with every dog. Razors are working with young immature teething puppies though. There is absolutely no way you can get an eight week old puppy and have it free in the house from day one. You need to use a crate, tie down, or both in some situations. For most situations, both would work equally well. For housebreaking, chewing, and sometimes when living in a multi dog household, the crate does have the advantage of a physical barrier that the tiedown does not.
Personally, I  use the crate, tiedown, baby gates, or nothing at all with my dogs depending on the individual dog in the situation. Every dog I have raised from a puppy is comfortable in the crate because it is simply the best way of keeping tempting objects out of their reach and housebreaking. Both of my guides were accustomed to the crate and tie down as puppies, and gradually given more and more freedom as they grew up . I put one of my dogs in a crate when he’s left alone, because he is a scavenger and I’ve had too many situations where other people put food in his reach even when he’s on a tiedown or  he figured out how to get hidden food in a drawer or whatever. People are not as trainable as dogs, in the intelligence that made him an excellent guide also makes him very good at finding food. I often put my dogs in crates when I give them a puzzle toy so that the other dogs don’t bother them.  That being said, I often use tiedowns in other situations and my adult dogs that are settled into my home are free in the house the vast majority of the time. 

Danielle 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 7, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> What I really mind is that I had to spend $90 to buy a crate I don't want in order to keep the dog from destroying things when I could not supervise him or keep him on leash.  I really hate it when I feel like I'm forced to buy something I don't really want.  
> And, for me, crates don't make great home décor.  I'm happy to say he mostly outgrew chewing, and now the crate is stored under the bed and only taken out on rare occasions.
> Tracy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 4:41 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crate training
> 
> Well, as Ruth said, the crate is a matter of preference. I would prefer it to a tie down because they can’t get tangled up in a crate. I like them, personally, and so does my dog. But you can abuse anything. Some people abuse the baby swing. It isn’t the swing that that is bad, it is the poor judgment perhaps of the person who over uses it to entertain the baby. The same goes with the crate. If used properly, it is a place that a dog can come to enjoy if familiar things are in it and if it hasn’t been used for punishment. It is a place that is sort of a safe haven. Over used it is not these things, but the schools having switched to these is far more humane than the tie down in my opinion, though Fisher is fine with either. He was clearly crate trained, but we were still using tie downs when I got him. So since this is a matter of preference, and since we have varying notions as to how they should be used, let us not turn this into a crate vs. none debate, along with judging puppy raisers when for the most part we don’t know what they do in this regard. Also, we must always appreciate the many good things the pup raisers do.
> 
> Cindy Lou Ray, Moderator
> Cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> 
> Cindy Lou Ray
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:56 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> I understand that many guide dog handlers use crates.  However, I do think some of the puppy raisers use it so much that the dog does not have enough opportunities to learn proper behavior.  I have never felt the need to use a crate with any of my guide dogs.  If a bad behavior did occur I immediately dealt with it and the dog quickly learned what was expected.  When I got Eva from Pilot five years ago they had crates in the rooms.  It broke my heart to put her in the crate.  I think crates are extremely cruel.  She cried pitifully and I felt like I had put my precious golden pup into prison.  Her trainer admitted that Eva hated being in her crate and he had a tough time training her to get in it.  I knew I would never use a crate after class so, I just let her lye next to my bed on a fleece blanket I had brought to class for her.
>> 
>> Sandra and the always free in the house Eva
>> -----Original Message----- From: sunshine via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 1:28 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: sunshine
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crosses
>> 
>>> I would put most of the blame on the owner not the crate. Crates are great, but they are not intended to be used as a place to put the dog at all times. My dog is only in the crate under certain circumstances. Some dogs like the crate. It's a safe haven. I have a dog that is over-zealous when people come to visit. Some time in the crate eliminates the issue of my dog's attempt to jump on people. After friends or family are here a while, my dog is taken out of the crate. As long as no one rials her up, she does fine.
>> 
>> 
>> It's a matter of preference. Some people never use a crate, though they do tie their dogs down. There are times when we might crate our dogs. Even when I leave home, my dog doesn't need to be crated. She likes going to it and has since I've had her.
>> 
>> Sunshine
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone XR
>> 
>>> On Mar 6, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Personally, I put part of the blame on the crate training that's all the rage these days.  Can't watch the puppy?  Put him in his crate, and forget about it.  So the puppy doesn't learn to behave without someone keeping a close eye on it every minute.  Not a fan of crate training.  Seems more like crate not-training to me.
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 11:37 AM
>>> To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>>> Cc: Lisa
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crosses
>>> 
>>> Hi Tracy,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I am only on my first guide dog, so can't compare several dogs. But my
>>> dog is a pure lab and had all of Krokus' habits in the early days. It
>>> took a lot of patience and time to teach him how to behave in the house
>>> but it worked well.
>>> 
>>> I'd say rather than being a cross thing, it's a matter of socialization.
>>> Obviously, the family where Taylor grew up before he started training
>>> wasn't so keen on good house manners. But I don't know what it's like in
>>> the US, where the puppies are before they start proper training.
>>> 
>>> Lisa
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Am 05.03.2019 um 16:48 schrieb Tracy Carcione via NAGDU:
>>>> Krokus is a lab/golden cross.  He was quite young when I got him, and did
>>>> his best to chew up as many of my possessions as he could.  If I tried to
>>>> put things out of his reach, he'd find something to climb on to get at
>>>> stuff. I was *not happy.
>>>> I just talked to a friend who recently got a cross and is having a very
>>>> similar problem.  Is this a cross thing?
>>>> Krokus is my seventh guide dog, and I never had such a chewer before, but
>>>> I never had a cross before, either.  It's really not something I want to
>>>> deal with.  He eventually grew out of it, mostly, but getting to this
>>>> stage was not fun.  Well, great fun for him, none for me.
>>>> If it's a cross thing, I'll say next time I don't want one, even if I have
>>>> to wait, as there are so many of the crosses now.
>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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