[NAGDU] Crate training

Sandra Johnson SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
Thu Mar 7 20:01:44 UTC 2019


Danielle:

You make a good point.  I am sure it is much different if the dog was crate 
trained from the
beginning.  In those cases the dog feels the crate is a safe place to be so 
it isn't a traumatic experience for them.  In Eva's case she had never seen 
a crate until the trainer was trying to get her used to one during her 
formal guide dog training.  By then she was a year old and had spent her 
life roaming a round  free until she got to the kennels.  At least in the 
kennel her space was larger but she was always very glad when someone took 
her out of it.  I asked the trainer at Pilot why they had crates in the 
rooms rather than a tie-down.  He said he himself did not like using crates 
but the school began using them because a lot of graduates were asking for 
the dogs to be crate trained.  For poor Eva being put into such a small 
confining space was very stressful for her.  She would not have been matched 
with a student who insisted on their dog being able to spend a lot of time 
in a crate.  Her behavior and guide work are excellent and it would have 
been very sad if she had been disqualified from being a guide dog just 
because she had difficulty being in a tiny crate.  I knew she hated it and 
it caused her a lot of stress so I was glad to reassure her trainer she 
would never have to use a crate.   Obviously she had an excellent puppy 
raiser because her manners in the house have been perfect right from our 
first night together on class.  I never even had to use a tie-down for her 
in the room on class.  She was free in the room and never did anything 
destructive.  Our first evening in the room she went to the door and cried. 
I went and took her outside and we have never had any housebreaking issues. 
I know we have to appreciate the volunteer puppy raisers.  However, if they 
commit to raising a puppy they should at least do the job they volunteered 
to do.  Teach the puppy proper behavior in the house so the future graduate 
will not have so much trouble after graduation.

Sandra and Roaming Free Eva
-----Original Message----- 
From: Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 12:17 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Danielle Sykora
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crate training

I can certainly understand the frustration with a guide dog that doesn’t 
have house behavior as well as you would expect. And of course, it’s 
frustrating  to have to teach the dog something they theoretically should 
have already learned. I respect people‘s decisions to use whatever method 
they want with their guide dogs. If the dog does well  free in the house or 
on tie down, then of course don’t use a crate if you don’t like them.
My point in my original message though is that it is a different story for 
puppy raisers. It’s great if you get an adult dog from a program with 
perfect house behavior from day one and ideally this would be the case with 
every dog. Razors are working with young immature teething puppies though. 
There is absolutely no way you can get an eight week old puppy and have it 
free in the house from day one. You need to use a crate, tie down, or both 
in some situations. For most situations, both would work equally well. For 
housebreaking, chewing, and sometimes when living in a multi dog household, 
the crate does have the advantage of a physical barrier that the tiedown 
does not.
Personally, I  use the crate, tiedown, baby gates, or nothing at all with my 
dogs depending on the individual dog in the situation. Every dog I have 
raised from a puppy is comfortable in the crate because it is simply the 
best way of keeping tempting objects out of their reach and housebreaking. 
Both of my guides were accustomed to the crate and tie down as puppies, and 
gradually given more and more freedom as they grew up . I put one of my dogs 
in a crate when he’s left alone, because he is a scavenger and I’ve had too 
many situations where other people put food in his reach even when he’s on a 
tiedown or  he figured out how to get hidden food in a drawer or whatever. 
People are not as trainable as dogs, in the intelligence that made him an 
excellent guide also makes him very good at finding food. I often put my 
dogs in crates when I give them a puzzle toy so that the other dogs don’t 
bother them.  That being said, I often use tiedowns in other situations and 
my adult dogs that are settled into my home are free in the house the vast 
majority of the time.

Danielle

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 7, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
> wrote:
>
> What I really mind is that I had to spend $90 to buy a crate I don't want 
> in order to keep the dog from destroying things when I could not supervise 
> him or keep him on leash.  I really hate it when I feel like I'm forced to 
> buy something I don't really want.
> And, for me, crates don't make great home décor.  I'm happy to say he 
> mostly outgrew chewing, and now the crate is stored under the bed and only 
> taken out on rare occasions.
> Tracy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via 
> NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 4:41 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crate training
>
> Well, as Ruth said, the crate is a matter of preference. I would prefer it 
> to a tie down because they can’t get tangled up in a crate. I like them, 
> personally, and so does my dog. But you can abuse anything. Some people 
> abuse the baby swing. It isn’t the swing that that is bad, it is the poor 
> judgment perhaps of the person who over uses it to entertain the baby. The 
> same goes with the crate. If used properly, it is a place that a dog can 
> come to enjoy if familiar things are in it and if it hasn’t been used for 
> punishment. It is a place that is sort of a safe haven. Over used it is 
> not these things, but the schools having switched to these is far more 
> humane than the tie down in my opinion, though Fisher is fine with either. 
> He was clearly crate trained, but we were still using tie downs when I got 
> him. So since this is a matter of preference, and since we have varying 
> notions as to how they should be used, let us not turn this into a crate 
> vs. none debate, along with judging puppy raisers when for the most part 
> we don’t know what they do in this regard. Also, we must always appreciate 
> the many good things the pup raisers do.
>
> Cindy Lou Ray, Moderator
> Cindyray at gmail.com
>
>
> Cindy Lou Ray
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:56 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello:
>>
>> I understand that many guide dog handlers use crates.  However, I do 
>> think some of the puppy raisers use it so much that the dog does not have 
>> enough opportunities to learn proper behavior.  I have never felt the 
>> need to use a crate with any of my guide dogs.  If a bad behavior did 
>> occur I immediately dealt with it and the dog quickly learned what was 
>> expected.  When I got Eva from Pilot five years ago they had crates in 
>> the rooms.  It broke my heart to put her in the crate.  I think crates 
>> are extremely cruel.  She cried pitifully and I felt like I had put my 
>> precious golden pup into prison.  Her trainer admitted that Eva hated 
>> being in her crate and he had a tough time training her to get in it.  I 
>> knew I would never use a crate after class so, I just let her lye next to 
>> my bed on a fleece blanket I had brought to class for her.
>>
>> Sandra and the always free in the house Eva
>> -----Original Message----- From: sunshine via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 1:28 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: sunshine
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crosses
>>
>>> I would put most of the blame on the owner not the crate. Crates are 
>>> great, but they are not intended to be used as a place to put the dog at 
>>> all times. My dog is only in the crate under certain circumstances. Some 
>>> dogs like the crate. It's a safe haven. I have a dog that is 
>>> over-zealous when people come to visit. Some time in the crate 
>>> eliminates the issue of my dog's attempt to jump on people. After 
>>> friends or family are here a while, my dog is taken out of the crate. As 
>>> long as no one rials her up, she does fine.
>>
>>
>> It's a matter of preference. Some people never use a crate, though they 
>> do tie their dogs down. There are times when we might crate our dogs. 
>> Even when I leave home, my dog doesn't need to be crated. She likes going 
>> to it and has since I've had her.
>>
>> Sunshine
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone XR
>>
>>> On Mar 6, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Personally, I put part of the blame on the crate training that's all the 
>>> rage these days.  Can't watch the puppy?  Put him in his crate, and 
>>> forget about it.  So the puppy doesn't learn to behave without someone 
>>> keeping a close eye on it every minute.  Not a fan of crate training. 
>>> Seems more like crate not-training to me.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa via 
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 11:37 AM
>>> To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>>> Cc: Lisa
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crosses
>>>
>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>
>>>
>>> I am only on my first guide dog, so can't compare several dogs. But my
>>> dog is a pure lab and had all of Krokus' habits in the early days. It
>>> took a lot of patience and time to teach him how to behave in the house
>>> but it worked well.
>>>
>>> I'd say rather than being a cross thing, it's a matter of socialization.
>>> Obviously, the family where Taylor grew up before he started training
>>> wasn't so keen on good house manners. But I don't know what it's like in
>>> the US, where the puppies are before they start proper training.
>>>
>>> Lisa
>>>
>>>
>>>> Am 05.03.2019 um 16:48 schrieb Tracy Carcione via NAGDU:
>>>> Krokus is a lab/golden cross.  He was quite young when I got him, and 
>>>> did
>>>> his best to chew up as many of my possessions as he could.  If I tried 
>>>> to
>>>> put things out of his reach, he'd find something to climb on to get at
>>>> stuff. I was *not happy.
>>>> I just talked to a friend who recently got a cross and is having a very
>>>> similar problem.  Is this a cross thing?
>>>> Krokus is my seventh guide dog, and I never had such a chewer before, 
>>>> but
>>>> I never had a cross before, either.  It's really not something I want 
>>>> to
>>>> deal with.  He eventually grew out of it, mostly, but getting to this
>>>> stage was not fun.  Well, great fun for him, none for me.
>>>> If it's a cross thing, I'll say next time I don't want one, even if I 
>>>> have
>>>> to wait, as there are so many of the crosses now.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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