[NAGDU] Questions about American Guide Dog Programs treats.

Wed May 22 23:36:32 UTC 2019

An Leader seems to be modeling their program now off of GDF. One of their 
trainers is now with Leader, and is training the new apprentices with 
techniques I know from when I had a GDF dog in the past. Older trainers are 
training a bit differently, but all are using more food rewards than I 
recall from the past. The idea is that they are to be weaned off over time, 
but never discontinued altogether.

J and B

-----Original Message----- 
From: Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 7:53 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Danielle Sykora
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Questions about American Guide Dog Programs treats.

I should probably rephrase then to say this is not an accurate
description of every program that uses treats, because GDB is not the
only program to use food reward. GDF modeled their newer program off
GDB in a lot of ways so I thought it was similar in terms of food
reward. Thank you for the clarification.

Danielle, Thai, and Jackie

On 5/20/19, Vivianna via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I agree with Deborah here. GDB does use treats heavily and continuously 
> for
> the working life of their dogs. You can find this info on their website if
> you don’t believe me. Yes, GDB grads truly do carry loads of treats around
> constantly. And, no, this is totally not for me personally. But, that’s 
> why
> there are several schools to choose from, or, in my case, the ability to
> owner-train.
>
>
> Vivianna
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 20, 2019, at 9:33 AM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is not an accurate description of how food rewards are used by
>> guide dog programs. Treats are not supposed to be used on a constant
>> basis. You do not reward a dog with a treat every single time it does
>> something correctly for the life of the dog.
>>
>> During the training process of a new behavior, you do reward with a
>> treat every time. Once the dog has mastered the behavior, you
>> gradually reduce the number of treats that are given until the dog is
>> only receiving a food reward on occasion or not at all. During the
>> first few weeks or months a handler has a new dog, the rate of food
>> reward is kept high, and then gradually reduced to the point where you
>> only need to carry a few pieces of kibble with you each day or only
>> use treats in particularly challenging situations. I'm positive there
>> are handlers who use treats improperly, and I won't even get into the
>> average pet owner. The same could be said for corrections, time outs,
>> or any training method though. Just because occasionally people use
>> the training method incorrectly, doesn't make it bad.
>>
>> I can't speak about GDB from personal experience, but I know GDF uses
>> food rewards in a similar way. For example, Jackie was trained with
>> food rewards. It took about two months to reduce her from about a half
>> a cup of kibble per day to about ten pieces of kibble per day.
>>
>> It's totally fine to have and share different opinions about training
>> methods, but it is important to make sure you fully understand the
>> method before doing so. It's like how many members of the general
>> public think leash corrections are abuse, because they don't
>> understand their purpose and how handlers know how to correct in a
>> safe and effective way. I'm not trying to pick on any individual,
>> because I see the misconceptions about food rewards a lot.
>>
>> Just for comparisons sake, my dog trained with extensive food reward
>> does not scavenge or act obsessed with food. My dog trained with very
>> minimal food reward (just for recall) is a serious scavenger and
>> highly, highly food driven.
>>
>> Also, most programs except students from Canada, but it's probably a
>> good idea to contact individual programs about their policies
>> concerning students from other countries.
>>
>> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>>
>>> On 5/20/19, Debra Chandler via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I'm sure Seeing Eye accepts students from Canada but not sure about 
>>> other
>>> countries.  I found last night's presentation re GDB very interesting.
>>> However I don't agree with such a food-driven approach to training.  I
>>> personally am not going to fill my pockets with treats every time I work
>>> my
>>> dog and reward my dog with a treat every time it does something
>>> correctly.
>>> The clicker is fine for certain behaviors like  finding a traffic light
>>> pole.  But I'm just not comfortable with using treats as reinforcers on 
>>> a
>>> regular basis.
>>> Deb and Tally
>>> ---- Tracy Lloyd via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> I too would be interested to discover which, if any, of the US schools
>>>> will
>>> except applications from other countries, especially european ones?  I'm
>>> in
>>> the UK, and had thought that only Pilot would take applications from the
>>> UK
>>> and Europe.  anyone have any more info?
>>>
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Leye-Shprintse Öberg via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2019 10:25 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Leye-Shprintse Öberg
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Questions about American Guide Dog Programs
>>>
>>> בס’ד
>>>
>>> Danielle,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your answer. Now, I know where I’ll start my research.
>>>
>>> Sandra,
>>>
>>> Some American guide dog programs accept international students and some
>>> others don’t do it.
>>>
>>> לשלום,
>>> Leye-Shprintse Oeberg
>>> Sweden
>>>
>>>
>>>> 19 maj 2019 kl. 22:37 skrev Sandra Gayer via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I thought you have to live in America to apply for a dog from an
>>>> American school. Can an applicant be domiciled in another part of the
>>>> world entirely and still apply to an American school? I only ask
>>>> because I couldn't help noticing Sweden at the end of the first email
>>>> in this thread.
>>>>
>>>> Very best wishes,
>>>> Sandra.
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/19/19, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> The US programs that give ownership upon graduation are Seeing Eye,
>>>>> GDF,
>>>>> and
>>>>> Freedom for sure, and I believe Pilot and GDA as well. Other programs
>>>>> either
>>>>> give ownership after a period of time, or say they give ownership but
>>>>> still
>>>>> have the ability to remove the dog in some situations.
>>>>>
>>>>> In terms of positive training methods, basically everyone is going to
>>>>> tell
>>>>> you the program they went to used positive methods because obviously
>>>>> you
>>>>> can't train a dog without rewarding them for their appropriate
>>>>> behavior.
>>>>> The
>>>>> two programs that come to mind that truly strive to use the most
>>>>> positive
>>>>> methods possible are GDB and GDF.
>>>>> Danielle
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 19, 2019, at 3:02 PM, Leye-Shprintse Öberg via NAGDU
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> בס’ד
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m researching guide dog programs for my next guide dog. I wonder
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> guide dog programs give ownership to the guide dog handler after
>>>>>> graduation and which dittos use positive training methods with their
>>>>>> dogs?
>>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> לשלום,
>>>>>> Leye-Shprintse Oeberg
>>>>>> Sweden
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sandra Gayer DipABRSM, LRSM.
>>>>
>>>> Soprano Singer
>>>> www.sandragayer.com
>>>>
>>>> Broadcast Presenter
>>>> www.rnibconnectradio.org.uk/music-box.html
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>> www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer
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