[NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important

[rainshadow]

hi

my poodle goes nuts when he sees dogs, horses, bears and even evil characters on TV.  i use the quiet command.  periodically  i'll have a hand full of treats and we'll put on a nature show.  when he doesn't bark i say "good quiet".  he has qwuickly figured out to come to me for treats.  the timing is challening sometimes but he's a poodle, he knows what we want because when he just can't helphimself, he'll bark with his mouth closed. .  he has been quite dog distracted and I find working this quiet command at home has helped him settle down quicker  when we encounte3r dogs  outside. (or he's just getting older and mellowing out)  

I had a lot of issues with Gonzo when I first got him. these dog distractions and he pulled far too hard.  knowing i was having surgery on my leg lat year I spent a  lot of time creating and working on a "slow" command.  this isn't about speed but about his pull.  if i had been a new handler i might have sent Gonzo back (even told my school thnis) but i'm stubborn too and was determined to turn him into a good guide dog. he's just turning 5 next month and, although our challenging work is limited to Covid, his work is really good now.

We keep working on the dog distractions. :)

Gary and poodle Gonzo


On December 7, 2020 10:44:38 AM PST, "Newton, Cherie via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>Or it could reinforce the unwanted behavior.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala,
>via NAGDU
>Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 1:09 PM
>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>Cc: Marion Gwizdala, <blind411 at verizon.net>
>Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>
>Dear all,
>
>	Those who know more about dog training can weigh in on my comments and
>correct my ignorance. I believe that giving a dog a treat to redirect
>its behavior is not the same as giving one to reinforce a positive one.
>In other words, if a puppy barks at something that startles it, giving
>a treat might distract the puppy from the alarm barking and redirect it
>to the treat, thus extinguishing the alarm barking. 
>
>Fraternally yours,
>Marion
>
>
>Marion Gwizdala
>(813) 626-2789
>Blind411 at verizon.net
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sharon S via
>NAGDU
>Sent: Friday, December 4, 2020 9:53 AM
>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>Cc: Sharon S
>Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>
>Hi, I personally don't know what I would do if I witnessed someone
>mistreating their working dog however I have reported a puppy carer to
>their school. I was out with my dad and I met this puppy handler and we
>spoke for a while, I learnt the dog's name but not the carer's name. We
>were talking with some other ladies and every question the other ladies
>asked she always disagreed with my answer. This annoyed me since it was
>her first dog and I had over eighteen years of experience. I let this
>slide I didn't think it was worth making a big deal of it. We continued
>on with the activities we were doing so we went our separate ways. I
>had heard a dog barking on and off throughout the day so was glad to
>find out where it was coming from. At the end of the day we were
>standing within sight of the lady and I couldn't see them but I kept
>hearing the dog bark. Afterwards dad told me that every time the dog
>barked the lady gave it a treat. I wasn't impressed she was teaching
>this dog that bad habit. My parents told me not to worry about it and
>let it go but after thinking about it for a few days I decided to
>contact the school this dog was from. I didn't tell the person my name
>just told her what we witnessed and what the dog's name was. I felt
>better afterwards because I hated the idea that the dog would fail if
>it went on this way and it wasn't fair for the dog to fail because of
>something the carer was doing. I haven't come across the pair since so
>I have no idea if things improved and because I notified the school
>without giving my name or where we were when I met the pair I didn't
>get any information on how things went.
>
>Well better go.
>From Shaz.
>Canberra, Australia.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rox Homstad via
>NAGDU
>Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2020 11:43 AM
>To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>Cc: Rox Homstad <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>
>I have really enjoyed reading Lynn, Sandra, Michael's and Marion's and
>others' posts on this topic. For transparency  I'm an owner trainer so
>I don't have, pun not intended, a dog in this particular fight because
>I own my dog from the outset and I am my program.  
>With that said I am noticing something in these messages and that is
>this idea of "telling the school." What I don't understand is why
>people do not address these problems directly with the handler? If you
>feel like it would be dangerous to do so, why not call the animal
>control authority in your parish/city? 
>I see on one hand, folks bemoaning that the programs don't treat them
>like adults, and in the next breath, folks running to "tell the school"
>on some handler somewhere who did something they didn't like.
>You can't have it both ways. Iether you want to be treated like adults,
>which means that you solve your problems like an adult does, and have
>all of the rights, and yes responsibilities of an adult, or you want
>the program to be in charge of you and your everything. 
>I also think people need to seriously evaluate the reasons for "calling
>the school" on someone. If your problem is not one in which animal
>control, or perhaps even adult protective services can't or won't
>solve, then is it really your business? 
>This is just what I'm thinking as someone who is a bit of an outlier.
>For what it's worth
>
>
>Rox'E and the Kitchen Bitches
>Soleil, Rowan, Phoenix
>pawpower4me at gmail.com
>
>> On Nov 9, 2020, at 6:03 PM, Mike Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>wrote:
>> 
>> Kevan et al,
>> 
>> I do understand your concerns. However, why are we having this
>ownership discussion when people own their own vehicles, their own
>pets, and most everything they use while no one mandates anything about
>safety unless something goes terribly wrong and some legal action needs
>to be taken? I like you have encountered unsafe guide dog teams who
>probably never should have graduated. That is, of course my opinion
>after 56.5 years of guide dog use.
>> 
>> The issue is, however, that even in unsafe situations the ball should
>be in the court of the schools to prove that a problem exists. I do not
>have information about any school taking or attempting to take away a
>dog recently, but that does not mean such has not happened. The very
>fact that people like Sandra are talking about their experiences should
>be our concern. Marion is, as he said, reviewing contracts. I know that
>there are restrictive and less than stellar issues with the GDB
>contract. The fact is that we can make a definite case that guide
>schools in large part demonstrate a lack of trust in their clients and
>they often put the interests or perceived interests of their doner
>population above the trust they should put into the teams they
>graduate.
>> 
>> If they truly trusted graduates why would they not give full
>ownership from the outset? Ownership should not EVER change what
>support the schools provide including follow-up and veterinary payment
>assistance. As a business owner Kevan I urge you to explore this from a
>client perspective. Also, look at it from an NFB member's philosophical
>standpoint. Either schools absolutely respect us or they do not. Either
>schools feel that we can handle our lives and situations or they do
>not. They can't have it both ways, and the perceptions many of us have
>is that schools by not providing ownership is one way they continue to
>try to keep power over us.
>> 
>> I realize not everyone here buys into what I have said here. However,
>the philosophy of the National Federation of the Blind has always been
>that we have the same right to live in the world as others and that we
>also should have all the same rights and responsibilities as others.
>The responsibility part is what we are discussing. We all need to
>demand to have the same responsibilities as others and that should
>include guide dog ownership with no strings attached. Of course, that
>also means that we must fully accept those responsibilities.
>> 
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU On Behalf Of Kevan Worley via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 2:48 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Kevan Worley <kevan at nfbco.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>> 
>> I would only note that her experience took place 45 years ago. I’m
>not sure whether your concerns, Marion are valid and warranted or not.
>That’s the reason we are having the discussion. At least that’s the
>reason why am continuing the discussion. On the other hand, I feel like
>I have received a wonderful amount of clarifying information from this
>exercise. Thank you. It is clear to me now that there are a number of
>our members who have diverse experiences and opinions on this issue.
>And there are schools with different approaches to this challenge.
>Therefore, it seems to me that folks who shop around can find the
>school with the system that works best for each potential handler. I
>can’t imagine what it would be like, well, maybe I can, what it would
>be like to have some Yahoo from the school come to your place of work
>or home without any warning at all and attempt to reclaim a guide dog.
>That said folks, I have to be real honest. I have seen situations where
>I truly truly believed that the safety of the dog, the care of the dog
>and the safety of the blind person were in jeopardy! That must be a
>part of the discussion. It just must. Moreover, if dogs are still being
>removed in the way that you’re examples illustrate. It would be
>interesting to review some of that evidence. It would be interesting to
>know if it is being done willy-nilly or whether there is sometimes
>rationale and how they document that rationale. Thanks all. Thanks for
>permitting the discussion. I appreciate you all Let’s go build the
>national Federation of the blind and the national Association of guide
>dog users. Happy giving of the thanks
>> 
>> At Your Service,
>> Kevan Worley
>> 
>>> On Nov 9, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU
><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sandra,
>>> 
>>>   Thank you very much for sharing your your story and acknowledging
>that my concerns are warranted and valid. We can make this change
>together if each one of us urges the training programs from which we
>received our dogs to create an equitable working relationship with us
>as consumers rather than the paternalistic, authoritative one most
>programs adopt. I also believe that an informed consumer is our best
>advocate. If any program has sole and absolute discretion over the
>possession of your guide dog, we need to be proactive in helping them
>understand why true ownership is important. In true ownership,
>possession of property can only be revoked with due process of law. Any
>other unilateral repossession rights, I suspect, are unenforceable.
>Again, I am wondering if a program that repossesses a dog without the
>consent of the blind person commits a crime of theft. We might just
>find out very soon!
>>> 
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> Blind411 at verizon.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra
>Johnson via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 3:50 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>Users'
>>> Cc: sljohnson25 at comcast.net
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>>> 
>>> Marion and all:
>>> 
>>> I can speak from experience since a school attempted to take my
>first guide dog.  I did not know anything about ownership in those
>days.  I was a first time new handler, only four months after leaving
>class.  I had contacted the school requesting help because my dog was
>pulling much too hard and walking much too fast which resulted in
>frequent falls.  I occasionally went to a local agency for the blind to
>use their volunteer reading services.  Unfortunately without my
>knowledge agency staff, mobility instructors and some unkind blind
>people reported to the school that I had medical issues and was unfit
>to work a guide dog.  I did not know my rights when a trainer showed up
>unannounced at my college dorm and just took my dog.  He had some
>official paperwork saying he had the right to take the dog.  The
>receptionist at my dorm tried reading it all to me but we really did
>not understand all the legal terms.  It was over the Christmas holiday
>just as I was leaving for the airport for a visit home.   When I got
>home, after my parents got over their initial shock of me not having my
>dog with me,  my parents lawyer got on the case.  Fortunately even
>though I was extremely upset I had thought to grab my folder of
>paperwork I had received from the school at the end of training.  The
>end result was that the school was forced to return my dog to me as
>soon as I returned to my dorm.  As new handlers we do not know our
>rights and may not know who to contact for help.  In those days I did
>not know anything about advocacy groups.  I had only been blind for two
>years and was just doing my best to get through my college studies and
>living an independent life with the help of my guide dog.  Over the
>next 45 years I have learned a lot and will not attend a school that
>does not grant unconditional ownership.  NAGDU is not wasting time on
>this issue.  Actually as much time as can be found needs to be made
>available.  I know Marion and others  have been working hard for years
>on this issue but he has not gotten much support from other guide dog
>handlers.  Many of our members might not really care but if you were a
>victim of a school taking your dog, then you would think differently. 
>NAGDU can definitely help this issue by offering support and knowledge,
>especially to potential applicants and new handlers.  Hopefully with
>continued pressure from us the schools will be forced to change their
>policies and give us the dignity and respect we deserve.  If I had
>known all that I know now, I would have been better prepared and would
>have fought back and refused to let that trainer grab my dog.  I have
>not named the school nor any staff involved with this issue however, if
>this information is ever needed then I will provide it.  
>>> 
>>> Sandra Johnson
>>> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net      
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala,
>via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 2:55 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala, <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>>> 
>>> Kevan,
>>> 
>>>   Having served as president of this organization for twelve years
>and having a leadership role for more than thirty, I have been involved
>in this issue and it is a very important platform of my belief in the
>ethical treatment of guide dog users. Very few people are willing to
>come forward because training programs are few in  number and talk with
>each other freely and, in some cases, unethically. I have witnessed
>programs interfere in their consumers' lives without cause. I have
>reported them the best I could without revealing the identities of the
>consumers for this very reason. Without their cooperation, it is very
>difficult to share much detail. This is also another part of the
>problem with these so-called ownership agreements: Many consumers are
>fearful of contacting someone for help with a minor issue for fear they
>will be seen as incompetent and, therefore, unworthy of having the
>guide dog. All of us would be worried, too, if we didn't know better.
>But we do and we know how to keep our property should someone attempt
>to steal it from us! But what of those without our zeal and knowledge?
>>> 
>>> Let's take Southeastern's agreement which says they can remove a dog
>for "suspected abuse". Whose suspicion? Based upon what evidence? And
>what about their contractual redefinition of being overweight as abuse
>and a reason for repossession? Think it doesn't happen? How can anyone
>tell us we own something when they have the right to remove it without
>our consent and without due process? 
>>> 
>>>   I again encourage everyone to read their contracts with
>objectivity and ask if you believe this document affords you due
>process rights or is it a unilateral, intimidating  agreement.
>>> 
>>>   Let me echo Joe Biden's plea: please be patient and you will get
>the results. All I can say right now is that there is a thing under
>motion that is bound to have a ripple effect throughout the guide dog
>movement. 
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> Blind411 at verizon.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevan
>Worley via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 1:31 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Kevan Worley
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>>> 
>>> I realize that some of this ongoing discussion was, is caused by my
>response to a post on this list expressing some of my thoughts with
>regard to ownership. I appreciate the perspective that has been offered
>by my colleagues. Mike, I have often heard you and other leaders talk
>about the fact that schools have, in the past, treated handler’s
>unfairly. That schools have removed dogs unreasonably. Have we,
>national Association of guide dog users found this behavior to continue
>in very recent times Do we have documented evidence of numerous
>removals? I feel like this has been a bit of a preoccupation of the
>organization in recent years. Actually, probably well before my time.
>Perhaps it is a reasonable, rational occupation of our time, energy and
>commitment to blind people. I have suspected that it is not. I have
>suspected that the evidence is lacking for such preoccupation. However,
>if there is significant evidence that blind people are harmed by the
>actions of some schools. And, if, it is the wishes of the membership to
>spend great time on this effort. Then we got to spend the time on it.
>But if it isn’t, we are to focus on the most important priorities of
>those of us who are members of the national Federation of the blind and
>national Association of guide dog users. For one thing, when guide dog
>schools present at our events. I would like to see their senior level
>management participate. I love trainers and outreach people. They are
>great. But they can never speak to school policy, goals, objectives,
>systemic behavior. Second, I think we need to continue our strong focus
>on all things transit. Rideshare, public transportation access at
>Cetera. Third, I am interested in beefing up the divisions
>collaborations and earning support from other companies and
>organizations that deal with dogs. I know we’ve had efforts around
>developing partnerships with dog related entities in the past. I think
>they’re tough to develop. But I think they’re critical to the ongoing
>work of the Federation. And while I am posting, I am so impressed with
>the current Board of Directors. I love Raul‘s energy and insight. It’s
>also been fun for me, after having had a guy dog for only four years,
>to work with the wonderful people here at the Colorado Association of
>guide dog users. This division has really been coming to life in recent
>years. I also got to be with the Tennessee Association of guide dog
>users two weeks ago. What a great group of Federation handlers. One of
>our strong divisions. That is for sure. And, Mike, we sure do
>appreciate your hard work and leader ship over the years. Peace! Out
>>> 
>>> At Your Service,
>>> Kevan Worley
>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 9, 2020, at 9:52 AM, Mike Hingson via NAGDU
><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Cody,
>>>> 
>>>> You raise some good points. Unfortunately, there is a history of
>some guide dog schools sending someone to take back a guide dog without
>any prior notice. Intimidation seems to be the name of the game. Guide
>dog schools have not yet grown up to the point where they truly have
>confidence in blind persons and thus even their contracts are
>restrictive and inappropriate.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU On Behalf Of Cody Davis via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 8:42 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Cody Davis <cjdavis9193 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>>>> 
>>>> Something for guide dog users to know:
>>>> 
>>>> The contract with a guide dog school is just that, a contract,
>which is enforceable via civil court. If a guide dog school wishes to
>take back someone’s dog and the user does not believe that the school
>has the right to do so, then the user has the option of not voluntarily
>giving back the dog. Instead, the user can let the school file a law
>suit to enforce the contract and resolve any issues of ownership. If a
>guide dog school attempts to forcibly take back a guide dog without
>first prevailing in a law suit to enforce the contract, the school may
>be violating a state’s criminal or civil laws. If you find yourself in
>a situation where a guide dog school is trying to take back a dog, it
>would be wise to consult a lawyer in your state to get a better
>understanding of the contract, your rights, and your options. 
>>>> 
>>>> My opinion on the issue of ownership:
>>>> 
>>>> If a guid dog is being abused, I fully expect that a guide dog
>school will pursue the legal action necessary to remove a guide dog
>from that situation. I do not favor contracts where schools retain some
>right to take back a dog once placed, and there are other ways for
>school’s to ensure the dogs they place are in good hands. Those options
>include reporting any abuse to law enforcement agencies having
>jurisdiction over that user and providing ongoing support to  guide dog
>teams to ensure the user has the knowledge and means to continue caring
>for and working with their guide. 
>>>> 
>>>> Warmly,
>>>> Cody Davis
>>>> NC licensed attorney
>>>> (Not licensed in any other state)
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Nov 9, 2020, at 9:06 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Melissa.
>>>>> I was interested in your message, but much of it seems to be
>missing.  
>>>>> Could you check and re-send?
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Melissa
>R. 
>>>>> Green via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2020 5:59 PM
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Cc: Melissa R. Green
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi.
>>>>> I feel that ownership is important. Yet, I know that some schools,
>
>>>>> just give ownership. But when something happens, or they need help
>with the dog.
>>>>> My dog was being attacked by another
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Namaste
>>>>> Best
>>>>> Melissa R. Green
>>>>> A home is nothing without the people you love inside of it. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU  <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> To:  nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> CC: cindyray at gmail.com
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 10:56 am
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Good morning to all,
>>>>> This ownership issue is one that raises all kinds of anger, 
>>>>> frustration, and some almost flaming. I think we need to be a
>little 
>>>>> careful what we say, especially in this day of raw nerves. I
>strongly 
>>>>> believe in our having ownership, the same as I believe that babies
>>>>> shouldn't be taken away from our blind parents. Yes, we can go to 
>>>>> other schools. My school doesn't disclose the puppy raisers. I am 
>>>>> grateful for this, and this is one of the several I continue to go
>
>>>>> there. I would sadly choose another school if they retained 
>>>>> ownership, I think. If they changed their policy on puppy raisers,
>I 
>>>>> wouldn't change schools. But on principal, people feel watched.
>That 
>>>>> may be unreasonable, but I don't think it would be a huge problem
>for 
>>>>> me because I believe I am a good handler. I don't know how I would
>
>>>>> feel if I had gone to a school knowing that in some cases they may
>
>>>>> have taken a dog away. I did know someone for sure where that 
>>>>> happened with no warning. Maybe the dog should have been removed,
>but 
>>>>> the handler deserved warning. Isn't that a little bit like the 
>>>>> welfare raids on families in the 60s? I know some don't know about
>
>>>>> those, but maybe we shdd refresh our memory on them. If I am bld
>and 
>>>>> am not allowed to own my dog, then it is condesccending and
>unjust. If I am abusing the dog, blind or sighted, it should be removed
>by someone.
>>>>> buy we are responsible, the dog should be ours. That is why wee
>pursue it.
>>>>> This is certainly not the only issue we deal with. If you have 
>>>>> suggestions about others write to our board at board at nagdu.org.
>Andd 
>>>>> maybe this is a ddead horse because there is so much opposition.
>>>>> S

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.