[NAGDU] Introduction and question

Thu May 21 18:58:27 UTC 2020

Hi Tracy,

Thai is just like Krokus with the food obsession. I can definitely say
that he acts starved to death no matter how much he eats or how much
fiber is in the food. I've fed him anything from 2.9%-6% fiber, and
between 2 and 1/3-3.25 cups of food depending on caloric content and
activity level. In all situations, he acts like he hasn't eaten for a
week. Same goes for my always hungry little pet dog. I don't notice
much of a difference in the other dogs either, who aren't as food
obsessed.

I actually think you would see more of a difference in the somewhat
food motivated dogs vs. the highly food motivated dogs. Highly food
motivated dogs will eat anything at any time. Less food motivated dogs
might actually understand the difference between being full and
hungry. Fat and protein are also more satiating than carbs, so a
higher protein and/or fat diet could help offset the lower fiber.

That being said, every dog is an individual. If a low fiber diet
causes scavenging in a particular dog, then of course a low fiber diet
might not be the best option for that dog.

Danielle

On 5/21/20, Madison Martin via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi Asia,
> Welcome to the list!! I'm sorry to hear that poor Greyson is having these
> issues. I honestly hate it when vets tell you what to feed your dog. It's
> usually the brand (s) of food that they sell, so they're just trying to get
> more money out of you. I love Dog Food Advisor, it's a grate website and
> really easy to navigate, you can even search for a particular brand and/or
> formula. I hate looking at ingredient lists, especially when there are a
> bunch of things that I have no idea what they are so therefore I don't know
> what purpose they serve if any. I have a question, but I'll post that
> separately. Good luck with finding a food that works for him!! Please keep
> us posted,
> Madison
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Vivianna via NAGDU
> Sent: May 21, 2020 11:49 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Introduction and question
>
> I completely aggree with the message directly below mine! Vet’s don’t have a
> clue about diets.
> So, with that being said, here is what i am currently feeding my youngster;
> 14 month old. I was feeding victor nutra active dog and puppy but, his poops
> were a little to soft for my liking so, now i am feeding him half nutra dog
> and puppy and half instinct. I am phasing him over to grain-free and, so far
> great stools since i have added the instinct. Below you will see the
> ingredients of both; Mind you, there are several recipes from each company
> with differing meat proteins. Costwise, victor beats everything else out
> there hands down.
>
> Instinct Original Grain-Free Recipe with Real Chicken Freeze-Dried Raw
> Coated Dry Dog Food
>
> Ingredients
> Chicken, Chicken Meal, Peas, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols
> and Citric Acid), Tapioca, Herring Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Natural Flavor,
> Salt, Dried Tomato Pomace, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Vitamin E
> Supplement, Niacin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Vitamin A
> Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin
> Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid,
> Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin), Carrots, Apples, Cranberries,
> Montmorillonite Clay, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper
> Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Ethylenediamine
> Dihydriodide), Choline Chloride, Freeze Dried Chicken, Freeze Dried Chicken
> Liver, Pumpkinseeds, Freeze Dried Chicken Heart, Dried Bacillus coagulans
> Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract.
>
> Caloric Content
> 4,406 kcal/kg, 518 kcal/cup
>
>
> Guaranteed Analysis	
> Crude Protein	37.0% min
> Crude Fat	20.0% min
> Crude Fiber	3.0% max
>
> Please note that this food has a calory count of 518 per cup. This is an
> extremely nutrient dense food.  And the fiber is only 3%.
>
> VICTOR Select Nutra Pro Active Dog & Puppy Formula Dry Dog Food Ingredients
>
> Chicken Meal, Blood Meal, Whole Grain Millet, Chicken Fat (preserved with
> mixed Tocopherols), Yeast Culture, Grain Sorghum, Menhaden Fish Meal (source
> of DHA-Docosahexaenoic Acid), Beef Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Pork Meal,
> Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Carrot Powder, Tomato Pomace (source of
> Lycopene), Taurine, Salt, Choline Chloride, Dried Seaweed Meal, Zinc
> Methionine Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Hydrolyzed Yeast, Iron Amino Acid
> Complex, Calcium Carbonate, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Ferrous Sulfate,
> L-Carnitine, Selenium Yeast, Copper Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12
> Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine
> Mononitrate, Biotin, Riboflavin Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine
> Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Powdered Cellulose, Brewers Dried
> Yeast, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus
> Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation
> Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Silicon Dioxide,
> Tetra Sodium Pyrophosphate, Vegetable Oil, Rosemary Extract, Green Tea
> Extract, Spearmint Extract, Lecithin, Fructooligosaccharide, Folic Acid, And
> Yucca Schidigera Extract.
>
> Caloric Content
>
> 3774 kcal/kg; 401 kcal/8oz cup.
>
>
> Guaranteed Analysis	
> Crude Protein	38.0% min
> Crude Fat	18.0% min
> Crude Fiber	3.5% max
>
> Both of these foods are cooked at a low heat of 180 degrees F to maintain
> proper nutrition.
> Vivianna
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 21, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Asia,
>>
>> I'm working my second dog, a female Golden named Jackie from GDF.
>>
>> As Tracy mentioned, I've spent way too many hours of my life
>> researching dog food. I'm a graduate student in the field of
>> dietetics, and reading ingredient labels is practically my hobby. haha
>> I have literally researched hundreds of dog food formulas, and here
>> are my thoughts.
>>
>> First of all, most veterinarians have little to no training in canine
>> nutrition. They study medicine, not nutrition in most cases beyond
>> things like (feed Hills prescription kidney diet to dogs with kidney
>> disease). If you are really serious about getting an opinion from a
>> veterinarian about dog food, consult with a veterinary nutritionist or
>> holistic vet (holistic vets usually put more effort into researching
>> nutrition on their own time). I compare this to people who are serious
>> about making dietary changes speak to a dietitian, not their general
>> care physician.
>>
>> I've never had a dog do better (stool quantity/consistency, coat
>> quality, allergies, etc) on Purina, Iams, Eukanuba, Diamond, Hills, or
>> Royal Cannin compared with other brands. These brands use a lot of
>> filler an poor quality ingredients in most of their formulas, which
>> means for most dogs they will poop a lot. Because of the new concerns
>> with DCM, I also do not like dog food formulas with high legume
>> content. It is not as simple as grain free is bad and grain inclusive
>> is good. Here are my top brands/formulas I recommend due to their high
>> meat content, lack of plant protein fillers (legumes, pea protein,
>> soy, gluten), and generally reputable companies.
>>
>> * Farmina (specifically the Ancestral grain options)
>> * Nature's Logic
>> * Sport Dog (K9 or Active series)
>> * Victor (High Pro Plus, Performance, Professional, and Nutra
>> ProActive formulas)
>> * Natures Select High Protein formula
>>
>> It is not true that high protein causes problems for dogs with
>> sensitive stomachs. There is also no magical formula that will work
>> for all dogs with sensitive stomachs. It does tend to take some trial
>> and error to find something that works for each particular dog. Some
>> dogs just do better with certain protein or carb sources. Some need
>> high fiber diets, and some do better with low fiber diets. A food with
>> limited ingredients and minimal filler is a great idea though.
>> Probiotics also are pretty much a must try for sensitive pups as well.
>> Another options is to feed a higher calorie formula, which requires
>> your dog to eat less and therefore poop less.
>>
>> My one dog with a sensitive stomach (actually a guide dog puppy in
>> training) relieved mushy poop 4-6 times a day on Purina ProPlan and
>> Iams ProActive, often on route. Switching her to Sport Dog caused her
>> to relieve solid poop twice per day. Adding probiotics resulted in
>> inappropriate relieving wasn't eliminated 100%, but drastically
>> reduced.
>>
>> My current guide also has a sensitive stomach. Her intermittent nausea
>> and vomiting was reduced by eliminating chicken from her diet. I
>> noticed that for her, high fiber diets caused her to relieve on route.
>> Low fiber diets drastically reduced her need to relieve on route, and
>> when she does, she indicates rather than just pooping in harness. She
>> does fantastic on Farmina Ancestral Grain, as does my dog with a
>> chicken allergy.
>>
>> Side note: You would be amazed how many products have chicken in it.
>> Reading the entire ingredient list of every treat is a must with a dog
>> with a chicken allergy. My particular chicken allergic pup is fine
>> with chicken fat and eggs.
>>
>> I hope that helps!
>> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>>
>>> On 5/21/20, Newton, Cherie via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Hi Asia,
>>>
>>> Nice to meet you. My name is Cherie and my retired guide Windy, a
>>> white shepherd also has chicken allergies. Her stool was often a
>>> challenge to pick up as well. At one point I put her on Taste of the
>>> Wild Lamb and things got a lot better. I'm also very careful with
>>> treats-no chicken. You'd be surprised how many treats are basically
>>> chicken.
>>>
>>> I get my food from Chewy and they're great about helping me look at
>>> ingredients if things get too confusing.
>>>
>>> Now I have 3 dogs, my current guide, Astrid, a 55lb. GSD from TSE,
>>> Windy and an 11-month-old Siberian Husky pup pet. I wanted a decent
>>> food with grains after all the articles I read last year. Since white
>>> rice is a filler and tends to solidify things where brown rice is
>>> fully digestible by dogs, I put them all on Purina One Lamb & Rice.
>>> It's white rice and all output from every one of my pack is good. HTH.
>>>
>>> Good Luck!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cherie
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>> Carcione via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 11:03 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Introduction and question
>>>
>>> Hi Asia.
>>>
>>> Nice to meet you! I’m Tracy, and I’m working my 7th guide dog.  His
>>> name is Krokus.  He’s a 60-pound yellow lab/golden from The Seeing Eye.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, overprotective family are a problem, but sounds like you’re
>>> bringing your dad around.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Krokus has allergies to chicken, and had loose stools on Purina, but,
>>> when I switched him to a grain-free, chicken-free diet, he did better
>>> and hasn’t had any real problems since.  But it sounds like you’ve
>>> already done that.
>>> A friend of mine has a dog who’s had serious digestive issues for a
>>> long time.  The only thing that’s worked for her is making all his
>>> food herself, which is a pain.  I think he’s getting turkey with oatmeal
>>> and vitamins.
>>>
>>> There are lots of foods with very few ingredients.  Have you tried
>>> any of those?  Dogfoodadvisor.com has many lists of dogfoods,
>>> including ingredients.  Chewy.com also has ingredient lists.  Poring
>>> over dogfood ingredient lists makes my head spin after a while, but
>>> it’s worth it to find the food that makes your boy feel good.
>>>
>>> Hopefully, Danielle S will chime in.  She’s had good success
>>> researching dogfood.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Krokus also has to empty on route.  It’s a pain in the neck, but
>>> that’s how he is.  However, his stool is good, so it’s easy to pick up.
>>>
>>> Have you heard of or considered using a relieving belt, which some
>>> people call a toileting harness?  You can buy one at onthego.com.
>>> It’s a belt with clips on it.  You put it around the dog’s hips, then
>>> attach a bag to the clips.  The poop falls into the bag.  I put it on
>>> Krokus when I think he’s going to poop.  I don’t leave it on him when
>>> he’s walking.  It really helps with pickup when the stool is loose.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good luck.  Sometimes finding the right food is a real pain, but it’s
>>> such a relief when you do.
>>>
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Asia
>>> Quinones-Evans via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 10:17 AM
>>> To: James Boehm via NAGDU
>>> Cc: Asia Quinones-Evans
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Introduction and question
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello my name is Asia Quinones-Evans and I have been on this list for
>>> a while and I do not think I introduced myself. I went blind 6 years
>>> ago due to a brain tumor cutting off my optic nerves. I went blind in
>>> less than a week so it was not a process for me and I had to learn
>>> new things very quickly. I knew nothing about the blind community or
>>> even the guide dog community the only thing I did know was there were
>>> dogs out there to help people with disabilities. I learned everything
>>> quickly though because I wanted to get back to sports and doing most
>>> of my daily things. I will be 23 in October so I lost my sight just
>>> before I could learn to drive. I actually am not that upset about it
>>> because I was not a person that was really excited to drive but now I
>>> do wish that I could run errands much easier without depending on
>>> someone else. I live in Ohio in a city that has public transportation
>>> but it is not accessible for the blind to use it is barely accessible
>>> for the sighted community here to use. So majority  of my
>>> transportation is walking, my dad driving me, or Uber. I also had to
>>> attend with an over protective dad that did not want me walking
>>> around our neighborhood by myself with just my cane. Next month will
>>> be 2 years I have been partnered with a wonderful Leader dog named
>>> Greyson. He is a yellow lab and is around 80 pounds. With having such
>>> a large dog now my dad does not mind so much that I go out to the
>>> stores around me. His opinion is that since most people where we live
>>> are scared of large dogs and will think Greyson will bite them then
>>> it is fine for me to go out. At first though I had to convince my dad
>>> that I could not just go out with him behind us and only on set
>>> routes. My dad works long days a lot of the time and we would not
>>> have been able to go out until he got home from work. I finally
>>> convinced my dad that I needed to go out with Greyson to build our
>>> partnership and work at different times of the day to encounter different
>>> things.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> After that long introduction I would like to ask a question about
>>> digestive problems. As long as I have been working with Greyson he
>>> has had stool problems. I have put him threw several food changes and
>>> we have also tried a food that is ment to  help with digestive problems
>>> but that did not work.
>>> The food he was on for a while in training and when I got home with
>>> him was Purina Pro Plan Sport 26 16 formula. I eventually changed him
>>> to Diamond Naturals Beef Meal and Rice Formula because he would throw
>>> up sometimes and it was just bile. I learned that sometimes that if a
>>> food has too much protein in it that can cause tummy upsets. The
>>> Purina food also eventually made him poop stewy stool which means
>>> that it was partly solid then the rest was messy and his schedule was
>>> very inconsistent. Like sometimes he will go at the same time for
>>> several days and then not want to go at the same time the next day. I
>>> have also worked with my local vet and Leader’s vet to think of ways
>>> to solve it. First they suggested a general deworming and a steroid
>>> round. Both of these did nothing to help him. They showed improvement
>>> for a few days on them and after that his stools went back to being
>>> stewy. My local vet also put Greyson on Hills ID prescription food for
>>> about a month.
>>> After a week though his stools went back to being stewy even on that
>>> food. I have finally put Greyson on Natural Balance Sweet Potato and
>>> Venison Limited Ingredient formula thinking that the issue was
>>> chicken products in the other foods. It has been about two weeks with
>>> Greyson on this food and his stools are stewy once again after
>>> improving for a little while. I will be going to my local vets office
>>> after its been 60 days. Another issue is that he always wants to go
>>> poop while on a walking route. I do not find this to be much of a
>>> problem because I have taught him to tell me when he has to go but
>>> the poop that comes out has no form to it at all when this happens.
>>> It does not matter if I make him go right before we go on a walk he
>>> will still want to go after several minutes of walking. Any treats
>>> that he gets I have changed to treats that only are one  protein type
>>> to eliminate that cause. I do not feed him treats while working
>>> because he gets distracted from his work and starts demanding the
>>> treat before he completes the task. This is one thing I will not put up
>>> with from any dog so he just gets petting and verbal praise while working
>>> and does fabulous work with both of these.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With this whole explanation I was hoping that someone on this mailing
>>> list could give me any ideas that I could bring up to my vet to think
>>> about. Or anything I could do to help my puppy not have so many bad
>>> poops. If someone wants to email me privately so not to clutter up
>>> this list you can email me
>>> at: asiaevans102897 at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
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