[NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple applications

Mon Nov 2 17:22:20 UTC 2020

Kevan, I agree with you.
I don't believe schools are running around needlessly just grabbing dogs because they're bored and need something to do.
Considering most of us pay $0 for our dogs, what right do we have to make demands?
Are dogs being taken away unfairly--perhaps; however, I know of at least one current situation where someone who has no business having a dog continues to have one, abuse and mistreat it, and my only option is to contact Animal Control.
I can already tell you, Animal Control doesn't care.
So this person because of ownership policies, gets to keep this dog, keep abusing it, yelling and swearing at it, etc. Perhaps someone has a remedy for that situation?
Guide dog usage is a privilege, and it's time we started to remember that.
No school owes any of us anything.
We pay little or nothing to go, get mostly free equipment and training, so what is there to complain about?
If you don't like something one school does, don't go there.
Sometimes a little gratitude and humility is in order.
I've finally learned this now having worked with three previous dogs myself.

Paul Ferrara, CPACC and 

Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6
American Printing House
1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206
Main 502 895 2396
pferrara at aph.org

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Kevan Worley via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 11:58 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Kevan Worley <kevan at nfbco.org>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple applications

This is interesting. I am relatively new to this guy dog thing. Got my first dog at 60, only four years ago. She is from Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, Inc.. I own her. I have noticed that the division has had some considerable focus on the ownership status, policies, procedures, legal documents between Guide Dogs schools and handler’s. I find this fascinating. I find it interesting. But, I must say, I don’t understand why such a strong focus on this issue. I believe I am missing something of significance in the discussion. That is to say I’m just not understanding it. Not disagreeing with it. To me, whether I own the dog or Fidelco owns the dog is of little consequence. I’ve had people try to explain to me why it is of vast importance. But I can’t wrap my head around it. In fact, until I looked the other day I really did not even know, or did I care who actually owned the dog. It is my dog. They’re not taking it back. It’s happy, it’s healthy, the handler works the dog and does a good job with the dog. The school has invested thousands and thousands of dollars in breeding, raising, training, caring for, doing the public relations, placing the dog etc. etc. The school has a vested interest in trying to ensure best outcome for everyone. I would suggest that the dog is, their product. They have a right to do what they want with, their product. As a consumer we have a right to work with which ever school has the, “product“ we desire. You know, if I want to Rent a television and pay like $1 billion in interest payments. I can. If I want to buy one from Sam’s club? I can. If I want to get one from Best Buy with some different level of warrantee? I can. If I want to buy a dog from a breeder? I can. If I want to pay a small handling fee to cover expenses I can buy a dog from my local Humane Society. If I want to self train my dog? I can. If I want to get a service dog from a school that retains some kind of ownership status? I can. If I want to get a Guy dog from a school that transfer is complete and total ownership to the handler? I can. So, to me, everything seems copacetic. But, I hear different from some of my Federation colleagues. So, what’s the story! What gives? What am I missing here? I look forward to the article in the monitor if and when it gets published.  In the meantime, I will keep watching emails and social media and maybe I will have  And aha moment And understand better. Thanks

At Your Service,
Kevan Worley

> On Nov 1, 2020, at 10:30 AM, Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Madison,
> 
>    As we move forward more information about the identities of the programs with these sorts of paternalistic and, in some cases, illegal behaviors will be identified. I have submitted  an article to the Braille Monitor I am expecting to be published in either December or January. In this article I name names, including the name of the blind person involved. ITM, I would like to encourage more discussion on this list by asking others to read the contracts with their training programs to see exactly what you have agreed to and report it here. I think this sort of awareness and discussion is very valuable, especially to those considering their choices. I will start with the contract I have with my guide dog training program.
> 
>    My Collie is from Freedom Guide Dogs for the Blind in Cassville, N.Y I have no contract with Freedom. They have given me full ownership and title to my guide dog. If there are any complaints levied against me, Freedom tells me they will contact me to make me aware of the complaint but have no right to unilaterally repossess my dog. If Freedom believes I am mistreating or abusing my dog, they will report that to the local animal services enforcement agency with jurisdiction where I live. The only document I signed with Freedom was my application form.
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> 
> 
> Marion Gwizdala
> (813) 626-2789
> Blind411 at verizon.net
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Madison 
> Martin via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 1:56 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: maddymartin at mymts.net
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple 
> applications
> 
> Hi Marion,
> I hope that the other schools will co-opperate and give you the info you're looking for!!! Look forward to reading the articles! Are you going to at least identify the school you're talking about? 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala, 
> via NAGDU
> Sent: October 28, 2020 9:56 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Marion Gwizdala, <blind411 at verizon.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple applications
> 
> I am preparing articles about the various policy statements of guide dog training programs as they are outlined in their contractual agreements we are required to sign.When we get a guide dog from one particular program, we agree the program has the right to repossess the dog if they suspect abuse. There needs be no evidence, only suspicion. The same contract redefines abuse as a dog that, in their sole opinion,  is overweight, allowing them to repossess the dog. Another has a mandatory retirement age of eleven. How many of us have worked dogs well past eleven? When asked about this seemingly arbitrary retirement age, the Director of Admissions and Graduate Services told me they want their "dogs to enjoy their retirement"! What does this even mean? Maybe they will take up knitting? Perhaps a round of golf every day? For those of us who have worked dogs well past this arbitrary retirement age, we know how much they would have enjoyed their retirement when you walk out the door with another dog when they are more than willing and capable of working. They love to work, so this is not enjoyable to them! How can anyone who has had no interest or involvement in your dog's activity for the past nine years tell you when to retire your dog? One program goes as far as to contractually state they have the right to repossess your dog at any time and for any reason at their sole and absolute discretionNo warning; no reason; no appeal; no explanation! 
> . And this is ownership?
> 
>    If you are a guide dog user, you owe it to yourself to read the civil contracts you have with your training programs. Most of these contracts subjugate their patrons to their paternalistic oversight. Many defend these tactics with the unfounded statement, "They must have a reason!" They do have a  reason and they should tell us what it is!
> 
>    I have asked all the training programs to provide me with their paperwork to review and comment upon; however, only one program - guide Dogs of Texas - has offered up their contracts and asked for input. Freedom Guide Dogs has no contract; the only thing we sign is their application form. I know there are consumers from each of the programs who may be willing to share their contracts with identifying information 
> redacted should any program ultimately refuse to share their contracts.   
> 
>    I will keep you up-to-date on my efforts and when various articles are published.
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> 
> Marion Gwizdala
> (813) 626-2789
> Blind411 at verizon.net
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra 
> Gayer via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 6:04 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Sandra Gayer
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Multiple applications
> 
> Hello Sandra,
> That sounds like a horrible situation to be in. I'm so glad it ended well.
> 
> Th Guide Dog school in the UK retains ownership. You, the handler, cannot make decisions without their involvement and their ultimate agreement, although they will discuss decisions  with you.
> 
> Very best wishes,
> Sandra.
> 
>> On 10/28/20, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Thanks Marion, I had forgotten to mention that.  Believe me you want 
>> to know that information before deciding on a school.  Some people 
>> don’t care but for some of us, we do not want our schools to come and 
>> take back our dogs for any reason they can come up with to use 
>> against us.  Oh, I know it does happen because in 1976 a school tried 
>> to take my dog when someone blabbed to them that I had been diagnosed 
>> with multiple sclerosis.  Yes, I had fallen a few times because the 
>> dog was walking much too fast for me but what I needed is help 
>> slowing him down not to have my dog taken away.  Fortunately my 
>> doctors,  physical therapists, a good lawyer and I fought and the 
>> school ended up bringing him back to me a few weeks later.  However, 
>> the situation should have never happened in the first place.  So, when looking for a school, applicant beware and be sure to read and understand everything.
>> 
>> Sandra Johnson
>> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
>> 
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> 
>> From: Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 8:27 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala,
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Multiple applications
>> 
>> I
>> 
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> 
> 
> --
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> 
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