[NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important

Sat Nov 7 22:19:35 UTC 2020

Kevan,

	IMHO, Fidelco consumers do not have full ownership, in spite of what fidelco calls it. I can call my hair "red" if I like, but it is no longer. If Fidelco has the right to repossess a dog "at any time and for any reason at our sole and absolute discretion", how is that in any way ownership? I also want to say that during the FLAGDU call I asked that question of Becky cook who represented Fidelco. She asserted she had been with Fidelco for more than fifteen years and had never witnessed a dog being removed. I referred her to the April 2011 Braille Monitor article to which she replied, "I was just following orders!" I did not put the individual in the article together with the individual I was speaking with. My point is that we cannot trust programs when they say they do not repossess dogs very often! It is up to us to tell on them and hold them accountable.

	I feel it is just a matter of time when someone has their dog removed and files a criminal complaint of theft. Check out your state's ownership rights laws and you will find that the possession of your dog cannot be interfered with even if another party also has rights to that property. I know it happens more than you know. I believe it happens even more often than I know. Where does that place a civil contract that violates that law. Any attorneys want to weigh in?

Marion Gwizdala

Marion Gwizdala
(813) 626-2789
Blind411 at verizon.net

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevan Worley via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 11:56 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Kevan Worley
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important

Exactly. Or, we, don’t, do, business! Isn’t that the bottom line. Why is it one of the goals of national Association of guide dog users to insist upon ownership? You have a choice! It is analogous to the choice you have as a rehab client. You can go to Little Rock. Or you can go to the Colorado Center for the Blind. You can go, where I went for my guide dog, Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, Inc. and have complete ownership. Or you can go to one of the other schools where they retain some level of ownership. Some of those schools also give folks lots of ongoing support services. Such as medical etc. And I will go out on a limb and say the following, I have observed some guy dogs who have been removed by schools. And every case I have observed. I was thankful. I just do not believe that schools are standing by, waiting around, to try to remove someone’s dog out of spite or grievance or because they don’t like the cut of your jib. I believe we spent too much time on this issue. I believe we have spent too much time on this issue for a long long time. Go to a school that let you own your dog. If you want. Or go to another school. If you want. I think the Federation should be concentrating on issues of vastly more importance I actually think it’s a trigger vendetta by some of our leaders. There are so many other issues we could actually be collaborating on with schools and corporations and governmental authorities. This is a non-issue. I believe everyone has the right to communicate with the schools and strongly suggest policies that work better for you and other guide dog handlers. But to spend a great deal of time effort into this. Seems ludicrous to me On the other hand, I could, very well be wrong!

At Your Service,
Kevan Worley

> On Nov 4, 2020, at 9:21 AM, Sheila via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I'm in complete agreement with you we are either capable and have the right to be treated equally or we don't.
> 
>> On 11/3/2020 9:51 AM, Rox Homstad via NAGDU wrote:
>> I'm going to agree with Tracy here.
>> I'm an owner trainer so I own my dogs which are either from a breeder or a rescue organization.  If either the breeder or the rescue refused to transfer ownership to me then I would look for a dog elsewhere. You either treat me like an adult, or we don't do business, that goes for everything in my life.  I am Deafblind with advanced lung disease. The only programs that would probably give me a dog these days are both programs which require some kind of waiting period before they give you something that they say. Is ownership but actually is not.  So I will be owner training until I'm dead or too sick to do it any more because long gone are the days when I will accept less than equality. I had 2 dogs from GDB and I remember the overwhelming fear I felt every year when they would come to my home. Or even being afraid of posting things online because people would quote, tell the school.  I am too old and too grumpy and my bs threshold is far too low these days to do any more of that. Lol
>> I see it this way. The NFB and by relation, NAGDU says we believe in equality, and you can't half way believe in equality sometimes. Either you believe in equality, or you don't. Either you believe in the full and complete capacity of blind people to take charge of their own lives and make decisions, or you don't. And there are always exceptions. There are sighted people who have overweight dogs, there are sighted people who buy very expensive dogs from breeders and who raise them in a way that the breeder disagrees with, and the breeder has no choice but to live with it and just not let them buy another puppy.
>> We deserve no less, and we are worthy of no less.
>> 
>> 
>> Rox'E and the Kitchen Bitches
>> Soleil, Rowan, Phoenix
>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>> 
>> On Nov 3, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Sherry's message made me think.  When I started going to NFB conventions and meeting lots of other dog users, I noticed that the Seeing Eye graduates were not at all shy about telling their school what they thought they should or shouldn't do.  I wonder if unconditional ownership makes people more willing to speak up.  Or the reverse, people who might have a dog taken away prefer to keep their heads down and not make waves.
>> In my book, outright ownership is part of being treated like the intelligent, responsible adult I am.  If I'm not that, then don't give me a dog.
>> Tracy
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2020 4:09 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>> 
>> Sherry’s message is very interesting, but I am trying to change the subject line. Marion wants copies of actual school contracts, so if you have some, I suspect you can send to him or maybe put them here.
>> As for ownership, this is always controversial and brings out the list members, and maybe this is good. My school gives ownership. If there is a complaint against your dog handling, they may call you and visit with you about it to see if there is any way they can help. In my case they did this and offered to come out. I refused the offer andd they respected that. The issues I had with Fisher, mainly serious dog distraction, they came to help me with.
>> It may be a fine lline as to whether we are customers or clients if we are not paying. But my feeling is similar to Sherry’s. If they don’t trust me with the dog, then they shouldn’t give it to me in the first place. I would feel a little uncomfortable thinking that for some reason my dog might be taken away. There is ccurrently a case in which the dog was removed from its handler because that dog was obese. Is that a good thing? No it is not, but I am not sensing that this is a grounds for removing a dog. No one should abuse dogs, and if I was running a school that gave full ownership, and if I learned a dog was being abused, I wouldn’t give the handler a dog again. Animaal control does care. There was a story oncce where a handler, peerceived or otherwise, was arrested for his handdling  of a ddog. People own their dogs in their hearts either way, but if that’s true, then if your dog is removed with no warning, it would have to leave you bereft and demoralized. I realize the schools have put a lot of money into the preparation of these ddogs, but they shouldn’t have also been preparing for policework concerning their clients, customers, or whatever we are. If, in fact, this is an issue, then they should charge for the dogs on a sliding scale so we have to pay something for the dogs.  If I buy a dog from a breeder, and even get a dog from a rescue or an animal shelter, they may check out what the environment would be like, but they mostly don’t check up on them again except maybe to see how it is going once. The dogs are given to people who are blind, but it isn’t exactly a hand out that they should be able to take away from you at will.
>> Cindy Lou Raay, Moderator
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Nov 2, 2020, at 2:00 PM, Sherry Gomes via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I have some pretty strong feelings about ownership. This message turned out to be quite long, so grab a beverage, or dinner, and read a long story.
>> 
>> For many years, I felt as some do, what's the big deal. I don't care if I own my dog or not. But eventually, a few things changed my mind about that. First of all, once upon a time, I had an incredible relationship with my former guide dog school. I got my first dog from them when I was 17 in 1975. They all knew me, and I was confident that they would never ever take my dog away, and to tell the truth, they never did.
>> 
>> Then after all my adult life working in customer service/support jobs of one kind or another, I started to understand that we are the customers of the guide dog schools. We aren't the clients; we're not the charitable objects; we are the customers. They would not be doing what they do without us. So, I began to feel that instead of me needing to be grateful for every little thing, they should also be grateful that anybody wants to get a guide dog at all, and that the schools should treat us as if we are their valued customers. So, they should listen to us, respect our wishes, treat as adults capable of caring for a dog.
>> 
>> Then in around 2012 or 2013, that school's board hired a new CEO whose job it was to fire half the grad services staff and force older training department staff to retire. They lost a wealth of knowledge and experience over that, and many of those staff people were ones that at least as far as I'd known or heard had the most respect for the people they served. I lost my field manager and other people who were dear to me. I should maybe back track and say I had worked for this school for a few years before this all happened, so the people who got canned were friends as well. I was not working for the school anymore, so my job was not affected. Well, many of us, grads, puppy raisers, donors and interested parties, we wrote letters of protest, and we signed petitions, and we voice our objections loudly on social media or email groups. I participated in all of that. And I had just decided to get ownership of my dog at the time and gotten it before they kicked my field manager to the curb. I had not been quiet about my hurt and anger over the staff cuts, and I had also been told of some nasty things being said behind the scenes about we who protested. I feared possible retribution and was thankful that with the owner contract as it was back then, they could not take my dog away.
>> 
>> Then a few years ago, they sent out a new copy of the owner contract, and it had completely changed. It was exactly like the new grad contract, only there were now some new things they would take your dog away for. There were obvious things like abuse, but there were things like weight which can be subjective depending on the dog. And in particular to me, they even had that they could and would take the dog if the handler had some kind of medical procedure that might have them unable to work the dog for several weeks, think it was six or more. Well, I have several artificial joints, and I will likely have such surgeries again in my life. I've always arranged for my guides to get walks from friends or neighbors when I was unable to work them due to recovery from joint replacements. And that time frame has been eight to twelve weeks. I manage my care and my dogs' care and I would not tolerate having the school decide that they had the right to pull my dog just because of an operation, one that would actually make me able to walk even better and more with my dog.
>> 
>> These are just my feelings about ownership, and I believe it's something every guide dog handler has to decide for themselves. No one answer is right for everyone. But I never will get a dog again from anywhere that would not give me ownership without strings attached. If I go to the pound and adopt a pet, nobody is looking over my shoulder to decide if they should take that pet back. Sure, a guide dog is far more and beyond a pet, but when they give us a guide, they either trust us or not. To me, ownership, free and clear, comes down to trust. If they don't trust us to do right by our dogs, then they shouldn't be in the business of providing them.
>> 
>> 
>> And I hope all that makes sense and that it helps to explain why at least I have come to believe that for me, ownership is a must and nonnegotiable. Currently, I'm on the waiting list for two schools, since I need a special kind of dog. One gives ownership right away and one after two years. I'm not happy about the two years, but I asked someone I trust about the ownership contract, and at least, at the time, it was not offensive.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 12:14 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple applications
>> 
>> I own my dog.  I paid a relatively small monetary price for him.  To me, the benefits of ownership are that I don't have to check with anyone when I'm making decisions about him.  I can feed him what I think is the best food, even if it's not the one the school recommends.  I can make all decisions about his health care.  I can work him until he's 12, or retire him tomorrow.  I can work him in the equipment I was issued in training, or I can buy something I think will meet our needs better and use that.  I never have to feel like someone is looking over my shoulder.  I suppose these are all small things, but they make a difference to me.  But, as Kevan says, there are plenty of choices out there.
>> Tracy
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2020 1:03 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Paul Ferrara
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple applications
>> 
>> This begs two questions: Why should you just be given ownership of a dog; and what is the benefit of ownership?
>> I'm not opposed to the idea, but what is the benefit?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Paul Ferrara, CPACC and
>> 
>> Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House
>> 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara at aph.org
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 12:59 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher <jordangandoliver at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple applications
>> 
>> We have plenty of demands to be treated with respect and for guide dog schools to actually abide by their contracts which the last two I went to did not do.  And we should have full ownership of our dogs plalin and simple.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 12:22 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Paul Ferrara <pferrara at aph.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple applications
>> 
>> Kevan, I agree with you.
>> I don't believe schools are running around needlessly just grabbing dogs because they're bored and need something to do.
>> Considering most of us pay $0 for our dogs, what right do we have to make demands?
>> Are dogs being taken away unfairly--perhaps; however, I know of at least one current situation where someone who has no business having a dog continues to have one, abuse and mistreat it, and my only option is to contact Animal Control.
>> I can already tell you, Animal Control doesn't care.
>> So this person because of ownership policies, gets to keep this dog, keep abusing it, yelling and swearing at it, etc. Perhaps someone has a remedy for that situation?
>> Guide dog usage is a privilege, and it's time we started to remember that.
>> No school owes any of us anything.
>> We pay little or nothing to go, get mostly free equipment and training, so what is there to complain about?
>> If you don't like something one school does, don't go there.
>> Sometimes a little gratitude and humility is in order.
>> I've finally learned this now having worked with three previous dogs myself.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Paul Ferrara, CPACC and
>> 
>> Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House
>> 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara at aph.org
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Kevan Worley via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 11:58 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Kevan Worley <kevan at nfbco.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple applications
>> 
>> This is interesting. I am relatively new to this guy dog thing. Got my first dog at 60, only four years ago. She is from Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, Inc.. I own her. I have noticed that the division has had some considerable focus on the ownership status, policies, procedures, legal documents between Guide Dogs schools and handler’s. I find this fascinating. I find it interesting. But, I must say, I don’t understand why such a strong focus on this issue. I believe I am missing something of significance in the discussion. That is to say I’m just not understanding it. Not disagreeing with it. To me, whether I own the dog or Fidelco owns the dog is of little consequence. I’ve had people try to explain to me why it is of vast importance. But I can’t wrap my head around it. In fact, until I looked the other day I really did not even know, or did I care who actually owned the dog. It is my dog. They’re not taking it back. It’s happy, it’s healthy, the handler works the dog and does a good job with the dog. The school has invested thousands and thousands of dollars in breeding, raising, training, caring for, doing the public relations, placing the dog etc. etc. The school has a vested interest in trying to ensure best outcome for everyone. I would suggest that the dog is, their product. They have a right to do what they want with, their product. As a consumer we have a right to work with which ever school has the, “product“ we desire. You know, if I want to Rent a television and pay like $1 billion in interest payments. I can. If I want to buy one from Sam’s club? I can. If I want to get one from Best Buy with some different level of warrantee? I can. If I want to buy a dog from a breeder? I can. If I want to pay a small handling fee to cover expenses I can buy a dog from my local Humane Society. If I want to self train my dog? I can. If I want to get a service dog from a school that retains some kind of ownership status? I can. If I want to get a Guy dog from a school that transfer is complete and total ownership to the handler? I can. So, to me, everything seems copacetic. But, I hear different from some of my Federation colleagues. So, what’s the story! What gives? What am I missing here? I look forward to the article in the monitor if and when it gets published.  In the meantime, I will keep watching emails and social media and maybe I will have  And aha moment And understand better. Thanks
>> 
>> At Your Service,
>> Kevan Worley
>> 
>> On Nov 1, 2020, at 10:30 AM, Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Madison,
>> 
>>  As we move forward more information about the identities of the programs with these sorts of paternalistic and, in some cases, illegal behaviors will be identified. I have submitted  an article to the Braille Monitor I am expecting to be published in either December or January. In this article I name names, including the name of the blind person involved. ITM, I would like to encourage more discussion on this list by asking others to read the contracts with their training programs to see exactly what you have agreed to and report it here. I think this sort of awareness and discussion is very valuable, especially to those considering their choices. I will start with the contract I have with my guide dog training program.
>> 
>>  My Collie is from Freedom Guide Dogs for the Blind in Cassville, N.Y I have no contract with Freedom. They have given me full ownership and title to my guide dog. If there are any complaints levied against me, Freedom tells me they will contact me to make me aware of the complaint but have no right to unilaterally repossess my dog. If Freedom believes I am mistreating or abusing my dog, they will report that to the local animal services enforcement agency with jurisdiction where I live. The only document I signed with Freedom was my application form.
>> 
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>> 
>> 
>> Marion Gwizdala
>> (813) 626-2789
>> Blind411 at verizon.net
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Madison
>> Martin via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 1:56 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: maddymartin at mymts.net
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple
>> applications
>> 
>> Hi Marion,
>> I hope that the other schools will co-opperate and give you the info you're looking for!!! Look forward to reading the articles! Are you going to at least identify the school you're talking about?
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala,
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: October 28, 2020 9:56 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala, <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple applications
>> 
>> I am preparing articles about the various policy statements of guide dog training programs as they are outlined in their contractual agreements we are required to sign.When we get a guide dog from one particular program, we agree the program has the right to repossess the dog if they suspect abuse. There needs be no evidence, only suspicion. The same contract redefines abuse as a dog that, in their sole opinion,  is overweight, allowing them to repossess the dog. Another has a mandatory retirement age of eleven. How many of us have worked dogs well past eleven? When asked about this seemingly arbitrary retirement age, the Director of Admissions and Graduate Services told me they want their "dogs to enjoy their retirement"! What does this even mean? Maybe they will take up knitting? Perhaps a round of golf every day? For those of us who have worked dogs well past this arbitrary retirement age, we know how much they would have enjoyed their retirement when you walk out the door with another dog when they are more than willing and capable of working. They love to work, so this is not enjoyable to them! How can anyone who has had no interest or involvement in your dog's activity for the past nine years tell you when to retire your dog? One program goes as far as to contractually state they have the right to repossess your dog at any time and for any reason at their sole and absolute discretionNo warning; no reason; no appeal; no explanation!
>> . And this is ownership?
>> 
>>  If you are a guide dog user, you owe it to yourself to read the civil contracts you have with your training programs. Most of these contracts subjugate their patrons to their paternalistic oversight. Many defend these tactics with the unfounded statement, "They must have a reason!" They do have a  reason and they should tell us what it is!
>> 
>>  I have asked all the training programs to provide me with their paperwork to review and comment upon; however, only one program - guide Dogs of Texas - has offered up their contracts and asked for input. Freedom Guide Dogs has no contract; the only thing we sign is their application form. I know there are consumers from each of the programs who may be willing to share their contracts with identifying information
>> redacted should any program ultimately refuse to share their contracts.
>> 
>>  I will keep you up-to-date on my efforts and when various articles are published.
>> 
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>> 
>> Marion Gwizdala
>> (813) 626-2789
>> Blind411 at verizon.net
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra
>> Gayer via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 6:04 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Sandra Gayer
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Multiple applications
>> 
>> Hello Sandra,
>> That sounds like a horrible situation to be in. I'm so glad it ended well.
>> 
>> Th Guide Dog school in the UK retains ownership. You, the handler, cannot make decisions without their involvement and their ultimate agreement, although they will discuss decisions  with you.
>> 
>> Very best wishes,
>> Sandra.
>> 
>> On 10/28/20, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Thanks Marion, I had forgotten to mention that.  Believe me you want
>> to know that information before deciding on a school.  Some people
>> don’t care but for some of us, we do not want our schools to come and
>> take back our dogs for any reason they can come up with to use
>> against us.  Oh, I know it does happen because in 1976 a school tried
>> to take my dog when someone blabbed to them that I had been diagnosed
>> with multiple sclerosis.  Yes, I had fallen a few times because the
>> dog was walking much too fast for me but what I needed is help
>> slowing him down not to have my dog taken away.  Fortunately my
>> doctors,  physical therapists, a good lawyer and I fought and the
>> school ended up bringing him back to me a few weeks later.  However,
>> the situation should have never happened in the first place.  So, when looking for a school, applicant beware and be sure to read and understand everything.
>> 
>> Sandra Johnson
>> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
>> 
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> 
>> From: Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 8:27 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala,
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Multiple applications
>> 
>> I
>> 
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