[NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
Marion Gwizdala,
blind411 at verizon.net
Mon Nov 9 22:04:26 UTC 2020
Sandra,
Thank you very much for sharing your your story and acknowledging that my concerns are warranted and valid. We can make this change together if each one of us urges the training programs from which we received our dogs to create an equitable working relationship with us as consumers rather than the paternalistic, authoritative one most programs adopt. I also believe that an informed consumer is our best advocate. If any program has sole and absolute discretion over the possession of your guide dog, we need to be proactive in helping them understand why true ownership is important. In true ownership, possession of property can only be revoked with due process of law. Any other unilateral repossession rights, I suspect, are unenforceable. Again, I am wondering if a program that repossesses a dog without the consent of the blind person commits a crime of theft. We might just find out very soon!
Fraternally yours,
Marion
Marion Gwizdala
(813) 626-2789
Blind411 at verizon.net
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 3:50 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: sljohnson25 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
Marion and all:
I can speak from experience since a school attempted to take my first guide dog. I did not know anything about ownership in those days. I was a first time new handler, only four months after leaving class. I had contacted the school requesting help because my dog was pulling much too hard and walking much too fast which resulted in frequent falls. I occasionally went to a local agency for the blind to use their volunteer reading services. Unfortunately without my knowledge agency staff, mobility instructors and some unkind blind people reported to the school that I had medical issues and was unfit to work a guide dog. I did not know my rights when a trainer showed up unannounced at my college dorm and just took my dog. He had some official paperwork saying he had the right to take the dog. The receptionist at my dorm tried reading it all to me but we really did not understand all the legal terms. It was over the Christmas holiday just as I was leaving for the airport for a visit home. When I got home, after my parents got over their initial shock of me not having my dog with me, my parents lawyer got on the case. Fortunately even though I was extremely upset I had thought to grab my folder of paperwork I had received from the school at the end of training. The end result was that the school was forced to return my dog to me as soon as I returned to my dorm. As new handlers we do not know our rights and may not know who to contact for help. In those days I did not know anything about advocacy groups. I had only been blind for two years and was just doing my best to get through my college studies and living an independent life with the help of my guide dog. Over the next 45 years I have learned a lot and will not attend a school that does not grant unconditional ownership. NAGDU is not wasting time on this issue. Actually as much time as can be found needs to be made available. I know Marion and others have been working hard for years on this issue but he has not gotten much support from other guide dog handlers. Many of our members might not really care but if you were a victim of a school taking your dog, then you would think differently. NAGDU can definitely help this issue by offering support and knowledge, especially to potential applicants and new handlers. Hopefully with continued pressure from us the schools will be forced to change their policies and give us the dignity and respect we deserve. If I had known all that I know now, I would have been better prepared and would have fought back and refused to let that trainer grab my dog. I have not named the school nor any staff involved with this issue however, if this information is ever needed then I will provide it.
Sandra Johnson
SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 2:55 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Marion Gwizdala, <blind411 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
Kevan,
Having served as president of this organization for twelve years and having a leadership role for more than thirty, I have been involved in this issue and it is a very important platform of my belief in the ethical treatment of guide dog users. Very few people are willing to come forward because training programs are few in number and talk with each other freely and, in some cases, unethically. I have witnessed programs interfere in their consumers' lives without cause. I have reported them the best I could without revealing the identities of the consumers for this very reason. Without their cooperation, it is very difficult to share much detail. This is also another part of the problem with these so-called ownership agreements: Many consumers are fearful of contacting someone for help with a minor issue for fear they will be seen as incompetent and, therefore, unworthy of having the guide dog. All of us would be worried, too, if we didn't know better. But we do and we know how to keep our property should someone attempt to steal it from us! But what of those without our zeal and knowledge?
Let's take Southeastern's agreement which says they can remove a dog for "suspected abuse". Whose suspicion? Based upon what evidence? And what about their contractual redefinition of being overweight as abuse and a reason for repossession? Think it doesn't happen? How can anyone tell us we own something when they have the right to remove it without our consent and without due process?
I again encourage everyone to read their contracts with objectivity and ask if you believe this document affords you due process rights or is it a unilateral, intimidating agreement.
Let me echo Joe Biden's plea: please be patient and you will get the results. All I can say right now is that there is a thing under motion that is bound to have a ripple effect throughout the guide dog movement.
Marion Gwizdala
(813) 626-2789
Blind411 at verizon.net
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevan Worley via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 1:31 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Kevan Worley
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
I realize that some of this ongoing discussion was, is caused by my response to a post on this list expressing some of my thoughts with regard to ownership. I appreciate the perspective that has been offered by my colleagues. Mike, I have often heard you and other leaders talk about the fact that schools have, in the past, treated handler’s unfairly. That schools have removed dogs unreasonably. Have we, national Association of guide dog users found this behavior to continue in very recent times Do we have documented evidence of numerous removals? I feel like this has been a bit of a preoccupation of the organization in recent years. Actually, probably well before my time. Perhaps it is a reasonable, rational occupation of our time, energy and commitment to blind people. I have suspected that it is not. I have suspected that the evidence is lacking for such preoccupation. However, if there is significant evidence that blind people are harmed by the actions of some schools. And, if, it is the wishes of the membership to spend great time on this effort. Then we got to spend the time on it. But if it isn’t, we are to focus on the most important priorities of those of us who are members of the national Federation of the blind and national Association of guide dog users. For one thing, when guide dog schools present at our events. I would like to see their senior level management participate. I love trainers and outreach people. They are great. But they can never speak to school policy, goals, objectives, systemic behavior. Second, I think we need to continue our strong focus on all things transit. Rideshare, public transportation access at Cetera. Third, I am interested in beefing up the divisions collaborations and earning support from other companies and organizations that deal with dogs. I know we’ve had efforts around developing partnerships with dog related entities in the past. I think they’re tough to develop. But I think they’re critical to the ongoing work of the Federation. And while I am posting, I am so impressed with the current Board of Directors. I love Raul‘s energy and insight. It’s also been fun for me, after having had a guy dog for only four years, to work with the wonderful people here at the Colorado Association of guide dog users. This division has really been coming to life in recent years. I also got to be with the Tennessee Association of guide dog users two weeks ago. What a great group of Federation handlers. One of our strong divisions. That is for sure. And, Mike, we sure do appreciate your hard work and leader ship over the years. Peace! Out
At Your Service,
Kevan Worley
> On Nov 9, 2020, at 9:52 AM, Mike Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Cody,
>
> You raise some good points. Unfortunately, there is a history of some guide dog schools sending someone to take back a guide dog without any prior notice. Intimidation seems to be the name of the game. Guide dog schools have not yet grown up to the point where they truly have confidence in blind persons and thus even their contracts are restrictive and inappropriate.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU On Behalf Of Cody Davis via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 8:42 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Cody Davis <cjdavis9193 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>
> Something for guide dog users to know:
>
> The contract with a guide dog school is just that, a contract, which is enforceable via civil court. If a guide dog school wishes to take back someone’s dog and the user does not believe that the school has the right to do so, then the user has the option of not voluntarily giving back the dog. Instead, the user can let the school file a law suit to enforce the contract and resolve any issues of ownership. If a guide dog school attempts to forcibly take back a guide dog without first prevailing in a law suit to enforce the contract, the school may be violating a state’s criminal or civil laws. If you find yourself in a situation where a guide dog school is trying to take back a dog, it would be wise to consult a lawyer in your state to get a better understanding of the contract, your rights, and your options.
>
> My opinion on the issue of ownership:
>
> If a guid dog is being abused, I fully expect that a guide dog school will pursue the legal action necessary to remove a guide dog from that situation. I do not favor contracts where schools retain some right to take back a dog once placed, and there are other ways for school’s to ensure the dogs they place are in good hands. Those options include reporting any abuse to law enforcement agencies having jurisdiction over that user and providing ongoing support to guide dog teams to ensure the user has the knowledge and means to continue caring for and working with their guide.
>
> Warmly,
> Cody Davis
> NC licensed attorney
> (Not licensed in any other state)
>
>> On Nov 9, 2020, at 9:06 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Melissa.
>> I was interested in your message, but much of it seems to be missing.
>> Could you check and re-send?
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Melissa R.
>> Green via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2020 5:59 PM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Melissa R. Green
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>>
>> Hi.
>> I feel that ownership is important. Yet, I know that some schools,
>> just give ownership. But when something happens, or they need help with the dog.
>> My dog was being attacked by another
>>
>>
>>
>> Namaste
>> Best
>> Melissa R. Green
>> A home is nothing without the people you love inside of it.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> CC: cindyray at gmail.com
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 10:56 am
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good morning to all,
>> This ownership issue is one that raises all kinds of anger,
>> frustration, and some almost flaming. I think we need to be a little
>> careful what we say, especially in this day of raw nerves. I strongly
>> believe in our having ownership, the same as I believe that babies
>> shouldn't be taken away from our blind parents. Yes, we can go to
>> other schools. My school doesn't disclose the puppy raisers. I am
>> grateful for this, and this is one of the several I continue to go
>> there. I would sadly choose another school if they retained
>> ownership, I think. If they changed their policy on puppy raisers, I
>> wouldn't change schools. But on principal, people feel watched. That
>> may be unreasonable, but I don't think it would be a huge problem for
>> me because I believe I am a good handler. I don't know how I would
>> feel if I had gone to a school knowing that in some cases they may
>> have taken a dog away. I did know someone for sure where that
>> happened with no warning. Maybe the dog should have been removed, but
>> the handler deserved warning. Isn't that a little bit like the
>> welfare raids on families in the 60s? I know some don't know about
>> those, but maybe we shdd refresh our memory on them. If I am bld and
>> am not allowed to own my dog, then it is condesccending and unjust. If I am abusing the dog, blind or sighted, it should be removed by someone.
>> buy we are responsible, the dog should be ours. That is why wee pursue it.
>> This is certainly not the only issue we deal with. If you have
>> suggestions about others write to our board at board at nagdu.org. Andd
>> maybe this is a ddead horse because there is so much opposition.
>> Sorry about the Mantis typos Cindy Lou Sent from my iPad
>>> On Nov 4, 2020, at 11:11 AM, Kevan Worley via NAGDU
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Exactly. Or, we, don't, do, business! Isn't that the bottom line.
>>> Why is
>> it one of the goals of national Association of guide dog users to
>> insist upon ownership? You have a choice! It is analogous to the
>> choice you have as a rehab client. You can go to Little Rock. Or you
>> can go to the Colorado Center for the Blind. You can go, where I went
>> for my guide dog, Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, Inc. and have
>> complete ownership. Or you can go to one of the other schools where
>> they retain some level of ownership. Some of those schools also give
>> folks lots of ongoing support services. Such as medical etc. And I
>> will go out on a limb and say the following, I have observed some guy
>> dogs who have been removed by schools. And every case I have
>> observed. I was thankful. I just do not believe that schools are
>> standing by, waiting around, to try to remove someone's dog out of
>> spite or grievance or because they don't like the cut of your jib. I
>> believe we spent too much time on this issue. I believ e we have
>> spent too much time on this issue for a long long time. Go to a
>> school that let you own your dog. If you want. Or go to another
>> school. If you want. I think the Federation should be concentrating
>> on issues of vastly more importance I actually think it's a trigger
>> vendetta by some of our leaders. There are so many other issues we
>> could actually be collaborating on with schools and corporations and
>> governmental authorities. This is a non-issue. I believe everyone has
>> the right to communicate with the schools and strongly suggest
>> policies that work better for you and other guide dog handlers. But to spend a great deal of time effort into this. Seems ludicrous to me On the other hand, I could, very well be wrong!
>>>
>>> At Your Service,
>>> Kevan Worley
>>>
>>>> On Nov 4, 2020, at 9:21 AM, Sheila via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> "I'm in complete agreement with you we are either capable and have
>>>> the
>> right to be treated equally or we don't.
>>>>>> On 11/3/2020 9:51 AM, Rox Homstad via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>> I'm going to agree with Tracy here.
>>>>> I'm an owner trainer so I own my dogs which are either from a
>>>>> breeder or
>> a rescue organization. If either the breeder or the rescue refused
>> to transfer ownership to me then I would look for a dog elsewhere.
>> You either treat me like an adult, or we don't do business, that goes
>> for everything in my life. I am Deafblind with advanced lung
>> disease. The only programs that would probably give me a dog these
>> days are both programs which require some kind of waiting period
>> before they give you something that they say. Is ownership but
>> actually is not. So I will be owner training until I'm dead or too
>> sick to do it any more because long gone are the days when I will accept less than equality.
>> I had 2 dogs from GDB and I remember the overwhelming fear I felt
>> every year when they would come to my home. Or even being afraid of
>> posting things online because people would quote, tell the school. I
>> am too old and too grumpy and my bs threshold is far too low these
>> days to do any more of that . Lol
>>>>> I see it this way. The NFB and by relation, NAGDU says we believe
>>>>> in
>> equality, and you can't half way believe in equality sometimes.
>> Either you believe in equality, or you don't. Either you believe in
>> the full and complete capacity of blind people to take charge of
>> their own lives and make decisions, or you don't. And there are
>> always exceptions. There are sighted people who have overweight dogs,
>> there are sighted people who buy very expensive dogs from breeders
>> and who raise them in a way that the breeder disagrees with, and the
>> breeder has no choice but to live with it and just not let them buy another puppy.
>>>>> We deserve no less, and we are worthy of no less.
>>>>> Rox'E and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>> Soleil, Rowan, Phoenix
>>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>> "Sherry's message made me think. When I started going to NFB
>> conventions and meeting lots of other dog users, I noticed that the
>> Seeing Eye graduates were not at all shy about telling their school
>> what they thought they should or shouldn't do. I wonder if
>> unconditional ownership makes people more willing to speak up. Or
>> the reverse, people who might have a dog taken away prefer to keep their heads down and not make waves.
>>>>> In my book, outright ownership is part of being treated like the
>> intelligent, responsible adult I am. If I'm not that, then don't
>> give me a dog.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>>> Ray via
>> NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2020 4:09 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Why I feel dog ownership is important
>>>>> Sherry's message is very interesting, but I am trying to change
>>>>> the
>> subject line. Marion wants copies of actual school contracts, so if
>> you have some, I suspect you can send to him or maybe put them here.
>>>>> As for ownership, this is always controversial and brings out the
>>>>> list
>> members, and maybe this is good. My school gives ownership. If there
>> is a complaint against your dog handling, they may call you and visit
>> with you about it to see if there is any way they can help. In my
>> case they did this and offered to come out. I refused the offer andd
>> they respected that. The issues I had with Fisher, mainly serious dog
>> distraction, they came to help me with.
>>>>> It may be a fine lline as to whether we are customers or clients
>>>>> if we
>> are not paying. But my feeling is similar to Sherry's. If they don't
>> trust me with the dog, then they shouldn't give it to me in the first
>> place. I would feel a little uncomfortable thinking that for some
>> reason my dog might be taken away. There is ccurrently a case in
>> which the dog was removed from its handler because that dog was
>> obese. Is that a good thing? No it is not, but I am not sensing that
>> this is a grounds for removing a dog. No one should abuse dogs, and
>> if I was running a school that gave full ownership, and if I learned
>> a dog was being abused, I wouldn't give the handler a dog again.
>> Animaal control does care. There was a story oncce where a handler,
>> peerceived or otherwise, was arrested for his handdling of a ddog.
>> People own their dogs in their hearts either way, but if that's true,
>> then if your dog is removed with no warning, it would have to leave
>> you bereft and demoralized. I realize the sc hools have put a lot of
>> money into the preparation of these ddogs, but they shouldn't have
>> also been preparing for policework concerning their clients,
>> customers, or whatever we are. If, in fact, this is an issue, then
>> they should charge for the dogs on a sliding scale so we have to pay
>> something for the dogs. If I buy a dog from a breeder, and even get
>> a dog from a rescue or an animal shelter, they may check out what the
>> environment would be like, but they mostly don't check up on them
>> again except maybe to see how it is going once. The dogs are given to
>> people who are blind, but it isn't exactly a hand out that they should be able to take away from you at will.
>>>>> Cindy Lou Raay, Moderator
>>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On Nov 2, 2020, at 2:00 PM, Sherry Gomes via NAGDU
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>> "I have some pretty strong feelings about ownership. This message
>>>>> turned
>> out to be quite long, so grab a beverage, or dinner, and read a long story.
>>>>> For many years, I felt as some do, what's the big deal. I don't
>>>>> care if
>> I own my dog or not. But eventually, a few things changed my mind
>> about that. First of all, once upon a time, I had an incredible
>> relationship with my former guide dog school. I got my first dog from
>> them when I was 17 in 1975. They all knew me, and I was confident
>> that they would never ever take my dog away, and to tell the truth, they never did.
>>>>> Then after all my adult life working in customer service/support
>>>>> jobs of
>> one kind or another, I started to understand that we are the
>> customers of the guide dog schools. We aren't the clients; we're not
>> the charitable objects; we are the customers. They would not be doing
>> what they do without us. So, I began to feel that instead of me
>> needing to be grateful for every little thing, they should also be
>> grateful that anybody wants to get a guide dog at all, and that the
>> schools should treat us as if we are their valued customers. So, they
>> should listen to us, respect our wishes, treat as adults capable of caring for a dog.
>>>>> Then in around 2012 or 2013, that school's board hired a new CEO
>>>>> whose
>> job it was to fire half the grad services staff and force older
>> training department staff to retire. They lost a wealth of knowledge
>> and experience over that, and many of those staff people were ones
>> that at least as far as I'd known or heard had the most respect for
>> the people they served. I lost my field manager and other people who
>> were dear to me. I should maybe back track and say I had worked for
>> this school for a few years before this all happened, so the people
>> who got canned were friends as well. I was not working for the school
>> anymore, so my job was not affected. Well, many of us, grads, puppy
>> raisers, donors and interested parties, we wrote letters of protest,
>> and we signed petitions, and we voice our objections loudly on social
>> media or email groups. I participated in all of that. And I had just
>> decided to get ownership of my dog at the time and gotten it before
>> they kicked my field manager to the curb. I had not been quiet about
>> my hurt and anger over the staff cuts, and I had also been told of
>> some nasty things being said behind the scenes about we who protested.
>> I feared possible retribution and was thankful that with the owner contract as it was back then, they could not take my dog away.
>>>>> Then a few years ago, they sent out a new copy of the owner
>>>>> contract,
>> and it had completely changed. It was exactly like the new grad
>> contract, only there were now some new things they would take your
>> dog away for. There were obvious things like abuse, but there were
>> things like weight which can be subjective depending on the dog. And
>> in particular to me, they even had that they could and would take the
>> dog if the handler had some kind of medical procedure that might have
>> them unable to work the dog for several weeks, think it was six or more.
>> Well, I have several artificial joints, and I will likely have such
>> surgeries again in my life. I've always arranged for my guides to get
>> walks from friends or neighbors when I was unable to work them due to
>> recovery from joint replacements. And that time frame has been eight
>> to twelve weeks. I manage my care and my dogs' care and I would not
>> tolerate having the school decide that they had the right to pull my
>> dog just because of an operati on, one that would actually make me
>> able to walk even better and more with my dog.
>>>>> These are just my feelings about ownership, and I believe it's
>>>>> something
>> every guide dog handler has to decide for themselves. No one answer
>> is right for everyone. But I never will get a dog again from anywhere
>> that would not give me ownership without strings attached. If I go to
>> the pound and adopt a pet, nobody is looking over my shoulder to
>> decide if they should take that pet back. Sure, a guide dog is far
>> more and beyond a pet, but when they give us a guide, they either
>> trust us or not. To me, ownership, free and clear, comes down to
>> trust. If they don't trust us to do right by our dogs, then they shouldn't be in the business of providing them.
>>>>> And I hope all that makes sense and that it helps to explain why
>>>>> at
>> least I have come to believe that for me, ownership is a must and
>> nonnegotiable. Currently, I'm on the waiting list for two schools,
>> since I need a special kind of dog. One gives ownership right away
>> and one after two years. I'm not happy about the two years, but I
>> asked someone I trust about the ownership contract, and at least, at the time, it was not offensive.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>> via
>> NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 12:14 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple
>> applications
>>>>> I own my dog. I paid a relatively small monetary price for him.
>>>>> To me,
>> the benefits of ownership are that I don't have to check with anyone
>> when I'm making decisions about him. I can feed him what I think is
>> the best food, even if it's not the one the school recommends. I can
>> make all decisions about his health care. I can work him until he's
>> 12, or retire him tomorrow. I can work him in the equipment I was
>> issued in training, or I can buy something I think will meet our
>> needs better and use that. I never have to feel like someone is
>> looking over my shoulder. I suppose these are all small things, but
>> they make a difference to me. But, as Kevan says, there are plenty of choices out there.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul
>>>>> Ferrara
>> via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2020 1:03 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>> Cc: Paul Ferrara
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple
>> applications
>>>>> This begs two questions: Why should you just be given ownership of
>>>>> a
>> dog; and what is the benefit of ownership?
>>>>> I'm not opposed to the idea, but what is the benefit?
>>>>> Paul Ferrara, CPACC and
>>>>> Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House
>>>>> 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396
>> pferrara at aph.org
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jordan
>>>>> Gallacher via
>> NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 12:59 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher <jordangandoliver at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple
>> applications
>>>>> We have plenty of demands to be treated with respect and for guide
>>>>> dog
>> schools to actually abide by their contracts which the last two I
>> went to did not do. And we should have full ownership of our dogs
>> plalin and simple.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara
>>>>> via
>> NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 12:22 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Paul Ferrara <pferrara at aph.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple
>> applications
>>>>> Kevan, I agree with you.
>>>>> I don't believe schools are running around needlessly just
>>>>> grabbing dogs
>> because they're bored and need something to do.
>>>>> Considering most of us pay $0 for our dogs, what right do we have
>>>>> to
>> make demands?
>>>>> Are dogs being taken away unfairly-perhaps; however, I know of at
>>>>> least
>> one current situation where someone who has no business having a dog
>> continues to have one, abuse and mistreat it, and my only option is
>> to contact Animal Control.
>>>>> I can already tell you, Animal Control doesn't care.
>>>>> So this person because of ownership policies, gets to keep this
>>>>> dog,
>> keep abusing it, yelling and swearing at it, etc. Perhaps someone has
>> a remedy for that situation?
>>>>> Guide dog usage is a privilege, and it's time we started to
>>>>> remember
>> that.
>>>>> No school owes any of us anything.
>>>>> We pay little or nothing to go, get mostly free equipment and
>>>>> training,
>> so what is there to complain about?
>>>>> If you don't like something one school does, don't go there.
>>>>> Sometimes a little gratitude and humility is in order.
>>>>> I've finally learned this now having worked with three previous
>>>>> dogs
>> myself.
>>>>> Paul Ferrara, CPACC and
>>>>> Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House
>>>>> 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396
>> pferrara at aph.org
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Kevan Worley
>>>>> via
>> NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 11:58 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Kevan Worley <kevan at nfbco.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple
>> applications
>>>>> This is interesting. I am relatively new to this guy dog thing.
>>>>> Got my
>> first dog at 60, only four years ago. She is from Fidelco Guide Dog
>> Foundation, Inc.. I own her. I have noticed that the division has had
>> some considerable focus on the ownership status, policies,
>> procedures, legal documents between Guide Dogs schools and handler's. I find this fascinating.
>> I find it interesting. But, I must say, I don't understand why such a
>> strong focus on this issue. I believe I am missing something of
>> significance in the discussion. That is to say I'm just not
>> understanding it. Not disagreeing with it. To me, whether I own the
>> dog or Fidelco owns the dog is of little consequence. I've had people
>> try to explain to me why it is of vast importance. But I can't wrap
>> my head around it. In fact, until I looked the other day I really did
>> not even know, or did I care who actually owned the dog. It is my dog.
>> They're not taking it back. It's happy, it's healthy, the handler
>> works the dog and does a good job with the dog. The school has
>> invested thousands and thousands of dollars in breeding, raising,
>> training, caring for, doing the public relations, placing the dog etc.
>> etc. The school has a vested interest in trying to ensure best
>> outcome for everyone. I would suggest that the dog is, their product. They have a right to do what they want with, their product.
>> As a consumer we have a right to work with which ever school has the,
>> "product" we desire. You know, if I want to Rent a television and pay
>> like
>> $1 billion in interest payments. I can. If I want to buy one from
>> Sam's club? I can. If I want to get one from Best Buy with some
>> different level of warrantee? I can. If I want to buy a dog from a
>> breeder? I can. If I want to pay a small handling fee to cover
>> expenses I can buy a dog from my local Humane Society. If I want to
>> self train my dog? I can. If I want to get a service dog from a school that retains some kind of ownership status? I can.
>> If I want to get a Guy dog from a
>> school that transfer is complete and total ownership to the handler?
>> I can. So, to me, everything seems copacetic. But, I hear different
>> from some of my Federation colleagues. So, what's the story! What
>> gives? What am I missing here? I look forward to the article in the
>> monitor if and when it gets published. In the meantime, I will keep
>> watching emails and social media and maybe I will have And aha
>> moment And understand better. Thanks
>>>>> At Your Service,
>>>>> Kevan Worley
>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2020, at 10:30 AM, Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> "Madison,
>>>>> As we move forward more information about the identities of the
>>>>> programs
>> with these sorts of paternalistic and, in some cases, illegal
>> behaviors will be identified. I have submitted an article to the
>> Braille Monitor I am expecting to be published in either December or
>> January. In this article I name names, including the name of the
>> blind person involved. ITM, I would like to encourage more discussion
>> on this list by asking others to read the contracts with their
>> training programs to see exactly what you have agreed to and report
>> it here. I think this sort of awareness and discussion is very
>> valuable, especially to those considering their choices. I will start with the contract I have with my guide dog training program.
>>>>> My Collie is from Freedom Guide Dogs for the Blind in Cassville,
>>>>> N.ally
>> I have no contract with Freedom. They have given me full ownership
>> and title to my guide dog. If there are any complaints levied against
>> me, Freedom tells me they will contact me to make me aware of the
>> complaint but have no right to unilaterally repossess my dog. If
>> Freedom believes I am mistreating or abusing my dog, they will report
>> that to the local animal services enforcement agency with
>> jurisdiction where I live. The only document I signed with Freedom was my application form.
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>> Blind411 at verizon.net
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Madison
>>>>> Martin via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 1:56 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Cc: maddymartin at mymts.net
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple
>>>>> applications Hi Marion, I hope that the other schools will
>>>>> co-opperate and give you the info
>> you're looking for!!! Look forward to reading the articles! Are you
>> going to at least identify the school you're talking about?
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Marion
>>>>> Gwizdala, via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: October 28, 2020 9:56 AM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala, <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Information about Contracts was Multiple
>>>>> applications I am preparing articles about the various policy
>>>>> statements of guide dog
>> training programs as they are outlined in their contractual
>> agreements we are required to sign.When we get a guide dog from one
>> particular program, we agree the program has the right to repossess the dog if they suspect abuse.
>> There needs be no evidence, only suspicion. The same contract
>> redefines abuse as a dog that, in their sole opinion, is overweight,
>> allowing them to repossess the dog. Another has a mandatory
>> retirement age of eleven. How many of us have worked dogs well past
>> eleven? When asked about this seemingly arbitrary retirement age, the
>> Director of Admissions and Graduate Services told me they want their
>> "dogs to enjoy their retirement"! What does this even mean? Maybe
>> they will take up knitting? Perhaps a round of golf every day? For
>> those of us who have worked dogs well past this arbitrary retirement
>> age, we know how much they would have enjoyed their retirement when
>> you walk out the door wit h another dog when they are more than
>> willing and capable of working. They love to work, so this is not
>> enjoyable to them! How can anyone who has had no interest or
>> involvement in your dog's activity for the past nine years tell you
>> when to retire your dog? One program goes as far as to contractually
>> state they have the right to repossess your dog at any time and for
>> any reason at their sole and absolute discretionNo warning; no reason; no appeal; no explanation!
>>>>> . And this is ownership?
>>>>> If you are a guide dog user, you owe it to yourself to read the
>>>>> civil
>> contracts you have with your training programs. Most of these
>> contracts subjugate their patrons to their paternalistic oversight.
>> Many defend these tactics with the unfounded statement, "They must
>> have a reason!" They do have a reason and they should tell us what it is!
>>>>> I have asked all the training programs to provide me with their
>> paperwork to review and comment upon; however, only one program -
>> guide Dogs of Texas - has offered up their contracts and asked for
>> input. Freedom Guide Dogs has no contract; the only thing we sign is
>> their application form. I know there are consumers from each of the
>> programs who may be willing to share their contracts with identifying
>> information
>>>>> redacted should any program ultimately refuse to share their contracts.
>>>>> I will keep you up-to-date on my efforts and when various articles
>>>>> are
>> published.
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>> Blind411 at verizon.net
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra
>>>>> Gayer via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 6:04 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>> Cc: Sandra Gayer
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Multiple applications Hello Sandra, That
>>>>> sounds like a horrible situation to be in. I'm so glad it ended
>> well.
>>>>> Th Guide Dog school in the UK retains ownership. You, the handler,
>> cannot make decisions without their involvement and their ultimate
>> agreement, although they will discuss decisions with you.
>>>>> Very best wishes,
>>>>> Sandra.
>>>>>>> On 10/28/20, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks Marion, I had forgotten to mention that. Believe me you
>>>>>> want to know that information before deciding on a school. Some
>>>>>> people don't care but for some of us, we do not want our schools
>>>>>> to come and take back our dogs for any reason they can come up
>>>>>> with to use against us. Oh, I know it does happen because in
>>>>>> 1976 a school tried to take my dog when someone blabbed to them
>>>>>> that I had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. Yes, I had
>>>>>> fallen a few times because the dog was walking much too fast for
>>>>>> me but what I needed is help slowing him down not to have my dog taken away.
>>>>>> Fortunately my doctors, physical therapists, a good lawyer and I
>>>>>> fought and the school ended up bringing him back to me a few
>>>>>> weeks later. However, the situation should have never happened
>>>>>> in the first place. So, when
>>> looking for a school, applicant beware and be sure to read and
>>> understand everything.
>>>>>> Sandra Johnson
>>>>>> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
>>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>>> From: Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 8:27 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala,
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Multiple applications I
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> i
>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> Sandra Gayer DipABRSM, LETTERSM.
>>>>>> Soprano Singer
>>>>>> www.sandragayer.com
>>>>>> Broadcast Presenter
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>>> il .com Ugh, I hope it stops. I have my back door open and the dogs
>>> are running in and out. I decided since i'm making grocers I'm going
>>> to have election night taquitos
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