[NAGDU] Question Regarding Guide Dog Schools

Mon Oct 26 22:26:36 UTC 2020

    	Yes Heather, it was a typo. Leader Dogs is 81 years, not 181. I have a golden named Misty that I have had for a little over a year and a half now from there.  If I tell her to do something and it’s not safe she turns her head up against my knee and lets out the “Golden Grunt” as if to say bey idiot it’s not safe yet, let me do my job.

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On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 12:34 PM -0700, "Heather Bird via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

A few things.
Leader dogs has not existed for 181 years, I’m guessing that’s a typo. The oldest school in the United States is the Seeing AI, which is coming up on its 91st anniversary this year, leader dogs is also one of the older schools in the US, but it is definitely not older than ThThe seeing eye  I just wanted to provide that clarification. Perfect example, dictation is making a mess of the name of The Seeing EYE, so dictation, typos, they are not our friends. Well, they are kind of are Frenemies.
Guiding Eyes For The Blind is located in Yorktown Heights New York, important, if you’re trying to find a mailingAddress, or looking on Google earth or Google maps. 
I am going to have to respectfully disagree that everyone wants dogs that are compliant. Obviously, none of us wants a dog that is so noncompliant that we can’t get them to do anything. That would not be functional. But compliant is definitely not a word I would use to describe my ideal guy dog. Obviously, it’s a spectrum, from so compliant that a dog can’t make up its own mind about anything, to sell uncompliant that they are completely worthless for any sort of task where a human needs to direct them. And, additionally, Guide Dogs certainly can be functional in a lot of the spectrum of compliance. Although, either extreme end would not make a suitable guide dog  I, personally, would rather have a dog with more initiative, that is less compliant. The reality is that because we are human, we will mess up, we will tell her dogs to go when it’s not safe, we will even sometimes correct our dogs when we think they’re being disobedient and they’re actually doing their job. I like a dog who has the mental fortitude, two in essence, give me the finger and tell me to shut up and get with the program and follow them, when I am in the wrong. Which I, of course, sometimes am  which all of you, sometimes, are. To me, that is worth having to give a few more leash corrections, or to be a little more vigilant about my dogs behavior. I can think of at least one instance for every single dog I’ve had, except for my first, where they disobeyed me, and saved my life as a result, and no, they weren’t all the standard intelligent disobedience refusing to step off the curb situations. I want to forgot my purse on the table, and my dog who never normally jumped up on tables, jumped up on the table, grabbed my purse, and knocked it onto my feet. Definitely disobedient, and definitely helpful. I am not proud of this, but once, when I was in a hurry, I was encouraging my dog to run, that is something that we do, and I have a specific command for running. My dog refused to speed up. When I kept asking her to run, she turned barked in my face and I discovered about 20 feet further along, there were many tripping hazards, it would’ve literally been impossible for us to run safely due to a large number of tree branches and a large amount of brush taking up sections of the sidewalk for the remaining several hundred feet of that block.Here’s another example, it’s not life-saving, but I think it’s very helpful to understand why I’m not a big fan of compliance. My dog is allowed to sleep on the bed. She knows the commands up to get onto whatever I’m pointing out, and off, took it down from whatever she is currently on top of it. Every night, I would come to get in bed, she would be laying on my pillow. I would tell her to get off, she would jump down, I would get into bed, and then welcome her back up to LA at my feet. After a few days, she refused to get off the bed when I told her too. But, she moved to the end of it  she figured out what the end result was that I wanted, and she decided to just give me the end result instead of going through extra trouble on my part or hers. Now, when I get into bed, I just her to the end of the bed, and she goes and gets out of my way so that I can get into the bed. My previous dog, stole a bagel off of a tray, I corrected her, verbally, and called her over to take the bagel out of her mouth. She ignored me well no actually she looked right at me, took the bagel back to the tray put it down, and came over and laid down next to me. Another time when one of my shepherd’s got out, we found her and I called her to the car, this was before I had the Offleash recall down to a science with the whistle, and instead of coming to us, share at home, to our house, and sat on the porch. She knew she was in trouble for not being at home, so she decided to correct the situation herself. Once, I was on a subway platform, I didn’t realize I was at the edge, because there were no truncated dome’s, and I told my dog to go forward. They are supposed to turn in front of you, from left to right, and either walk along the edge of the platform, putting them self between you and the platform, or, they are supposed to lead you to an H beam. In the situation, the people and the way the platform is laid out, made it impossible for her to turn right, and she could not go forward. She knew she was not supposed to turn to the left either. So, this dog, who is never mouthy in harness, took my hand in her mouth, and put pressure very gently on it, I didn’t know what on earth she was up to. She pulled me straight backward. If she had tried to do that with the harness, it would have potential he come right off over her head, and, while directing a blind person left or right, or pulling them forward is fairly easy, backing someone up can be very difficult, especially from a standstill. So she got my attention, and she moved me with more accuracy than if she had tried to simply back up. I was so close to the edge that if she had just backed up, if I had stepped even a little bit forward trying to figure out what she was doing. I would’ve fallen. There was also no room for her to have turned in front of me to push me backwards. She would’ve fallen off the edge if she had tried. She has never melted me or bitten me cents. So, do I want a compliant dog? No, I most certainly do not. I don’t want Helion, but I definitely don’t want a dog for whom one of their primary descriptive terms would be compliant.
Pet  peeve of mine, no such thing as golden labs. There are labrador golden retriever classes, sometimes called lab golden, and they are yellow labradors, and golden retrievers, but no golden labs. There seems to be a regional thing, like people who say soda, or pop, or soda pop when they’re talking about a carbonated beverage, but technically, there are only black labs, and yellow labs, you can also get chocolate labs, which depending on the kennel club in question is considered a fault or an acceptable coloration  
I want to emphasize the importance ofI want to emphasize the importance of Mike’s statement regarding pairing food rewards with clicker training. Food rewards used without a clicker, can cause some serious problems. Clicker training, paired with food rewards, is very highly effective, and can definitely strengthen some behaviors, and provide for more complex training, a greater number of available behaviors and work tasks, and is almost always, not always, but almost always a good thing.When I went to when I went to Guiding eyes in 2003, they were using food rewards, in a very ineffective manner. From what I have read, they have now refined their training and use of food rewards greatly. At the time however, they were using very low value treats, not low value in terms of low quality, but low value treats refers to how motivating they are to a dog. Generally, the stinkier, tastier, and more textually appealing a tree is, the higher value it is to the dog. For instance, small pieces of cheese, or hotdog, or very high value treats, pieces of the dogs on kibble are medium to low value treats, At the time, they wereat the time, they were using some thing they called Charlie bear treats, which were kind of the texture and flavor of goldfish, they were grain based lightweight, with very little flavor. And, at the time, they were not using a clicker or any other marker to exactly pinpoint the desired behavior.For a long time for a long time in the guide dog training community, food rewards had a very bad rap, and it’s easy to see why, because when they’re not paired with a clicker, they can lead to destruction, they can reinforce the wrong behavior, they can be a lot of hassle, with little or no reward.Adding a clicker adding a clicker into the mix makes a world of difference.
I want to agree with Mike and also respectI want to agree with Mike and also respectfully disagree. I do agree that the shepherds that come out of The Seeing by and the ones that come out of Fidelco, are not close to the breed standard in terms of behavior and temperament, if we are talking about the American kennel club German Shepherd. I love German Shepherd‘s, and I really do not like the standard American lines of German Shepherd‘s that come out of most kennels in the US.I think that The Seeing guy has d I think that The Seeing guy has done a very good job of developing a specialized type of German Shepherd, that is not too emotionally fragile, and works well, as a guide dog. I think that Fidelco has a similar set of lines, although there seem to be a little bit closer to the German Shepherd’s you might see Brede in Europe for things like military working dogs  One way I haveOne way I have described the shepherds at The Seeing by two people is that they are producing a line of labrador retrievers and golden retrievers and labrador golden crosses that happen to be wearing German Shepherd suits and occasionally have some German Shepherd traits.  Historically, if you read the accounts of the original seeing my dogs, and other early Guide Dogs, who are Shepherd’s, by today’s standards, they would be too strong, too fast, too aggressive, too driven, to be Guide Dogs, or to be Guide Dogs for most handlers. Overall, Guide Dogs has become more temperamentally soft than they used to be. Across-the-board at most schools. Also, at Guide Dogs for the blind, there has been a shift towards less punitive training measures. That is, a focus on positive reinforcement, verbal praise, physical praise, and use of treats and clickers. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, or a good thing. It has some significant drawbacks, and some significant advantages. But, it is unarguably different from how things used to be done. Also, relying on measures that do not include any, or much, physical correction, necessitates a much softer, more beatable dog. Shepherds in general, there are exceptions, but in general, shepherds do not fit that profile. They are very bright, but they can be very stubborn, very driven, and often require physical correction. This could include a high collar correction, a leash correction, in all of the flavors that entails, or another physical means of getting the dogs focus and attention. There is nothing wrong with physical correction, if it is done correctly, but if a school is not utilizing it, or not utilizing it very much, then it would be very difficult to issue successful Shepherd’s, if you breed the shepherd soft enough, to work with little or no physical correction, you can also wind up with a dog that is much more emotionally vulnerable. And an emotionally vulnerable dog, is more likely to develop behavioral problems, which could include reactive aggression. Both Fidelco and the Seeing Eye use physical correction as well as verbal correction and also treats with clickers, and physical and verbal praise. I think having a wide range of options to communicate with your dog what is wanted, and what is unwanted, allows for a wider range of hard and soft dogs to be available. I absolutely can see where shepherds would not have been a good fit for.GDB  during a transition to less physical correction in the training methods. 
Oh, shame on me. I just violated my own pet peeve. I should be more clear. I meant positive training methods. Positive reinforcement includes physical correction. Positive reinforcement means adding something in in order to reinforce the behavior. So, correction adds an element in, it adds for instance a lease correction, so that actually is positive, it doesn’t mean positive and negative in terms of good or bad or kind or tough. For instance, negative reinforcement means reinforcing the behavior by taking something away. So for instance, if your school teaches you to pull down with a constant pressure when your dog is being asked to lay down, then you are using negative reinforcement, because, you reinforce their laying down, by taking away the pressure, when they comply with the desired behavior. So, negative means to take away, not bad or tough or mean, it just refers to whether you’re adding or subtracting a stimuli in order to get the desired behavior. Sometimes, you will hear the term positive punishment and negative punishment. Positive punishment needs to add something in that is a punishment. Negative punishment means to take something away as a punishment. So, if your child is misbehaving, and you take away their allowance, that is negative punishment. If your child is misbehaving and you add extra chores to their list, that is positive punishment. Yes it’s complicated, and no, you shouldn’t feel bad if it’s a little confusing. Especially because in the general population, people often miss use these terms. It only really matters if you are a behavioral scientist, or if you are way into dog training and intend to do a lot of extra training with your dog, or really want to get down to the nitty-gritty of how your school trains Guide Dogs and why it works. Also, in some cases, something like a lease correction, doesn’t reinforce or discourage behavior, it’s just a means of getting your dogs attention. It depends on the dog, their pain threshold, how soft or hard they are, and a lot of other factors.

I wanted to clarify, interview process, I think what people are saying, is that you should ask a lot of questions when you’re researching schools. I don’t think they mean you should ask a lot of questions when you are doing the in-home interview. I mean, yes, by all means, ask a lot of questions then, but I wouldn’t waste the schools time and effort having them come out to interview you and less you’re pretty sure that that’s the right program for you. Especially if it’s a program from out of state. I would say the time to ask the main important questions is before you get to the stage where you have submitted a lot of paperwork, and a trainer or representative is traveling to your home. 
And, this discussion brings up a very good point. Understanding what your school uses for training and correction is very important. And if you’re uncomfortable with a particular training method or correction method, then it probably isn’t the school for you. For instance, if you really don’t agree with food rewards, even when paired with a clicker, you’ll want to know if they use food. If you don’t like physical correction, or if you don’t feel comfortable working a dog who is trained without physical correction, you will want to know these factors as well. of course, there are general trends. For instance, almost all schools use clickers and food, although some only use it in the training process and not with students in class, and some do. And, almost every school uses at least some physical correction, although the overall trend has been to move away from physical correction. all schools train the dogs in traffic, but some do much more extensive traffic training than others, and some schools approach traffic training in class in different ways from other schools approaching the same training concept. 
Regarding the running guides program. If you have full ownership of your dog, if that is how your ownership contract is written with your school, and you choose to responsibly add running to your dogs training, you do have that option. Although I wouldn’t take this lightly. my understanding of the running guides program, and you would absolutely want to clarify this, is that it is only for serious athletes, I don’t think you can just apply to it for fun. You need to be in good shape, and an active athlete already involved in running. And there are limitations to running with your guide dog, where do you train your dog to do it yourself, or get a dog from a formalized running guides program. If this is something that interests you you will definitely want to seek clarification from Guiding ice for the parameters of that program. 
Those were just a few thoughts that occurred to me while reading through all of the great responses. I hope some of this is helpful. from my iPhone

> On Oct 26, 2020, at 1:29 PM, Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU  wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone. Hope all are staying healthy during this pandemic. One thing
> to consider is that the schools are doing things differently now than they
> did before COVID. Another thing for firsttimers to consider is that if you
> are open to any breed, you may get into class sooner.
> 
> For me, I've worked labs and a few shepherds. None of the shepherds worked
> out. Two of them had issues I couldn't live with and the other was a good
> dog but I sustained an injury that caused me to have to give up guide dog
> use for a year. Two of the shepherds were from Seeing Eye the other from
> Eye Dog in Phoenix. All three were very sweet. Even the one who barked on
> buses and other public places that scared the public. Shepherd guides are
> not that common in San Diego. For all three shepherds, the schools never
> blamed me for the partnership failures. The ones from Seeing Eye had
> behavior problems which caused their early retirements. After I retired my
> previous shepherd, TSE wanted to give me another shepherd which I declined
> because I was not wanting the behaviour problems. I wanted another lab
> since I seem to work best with them. A shepherd is too active for my needs.
> I am an older guy who has other physical issues besides blindness. Turns
> out my sister who lived with me was diagnosed with alzheimers and she lost
> her ability to walk. This happened a year or so after I got my current lab.
> Because my sister is also blind, I had to take her on paratransit. My lab
> adjusted to a reduced work load. I could only push my sister's manual
> transport (four small wheels) chair to the other end of our city block to
> our fave restaurant with me heeling my dog. With my very limited vision we
> couldn't cross streets and push the wheelchair. I dont think I could have
> done this with a shepherd. Now, my sister has had to move to a memory-care
> facility and I just moved to a one bedroom apartment. With the pandemic,
> there aren't my old usual activities that I use the public transportation
> to get to. Ari and do get some more good working walks with going to stores
> as I need to or walks in Balboa Park or down by the bay.
> 
> Heather, your very long post was most informative with good advice about
> the various schools and about their breeds of dogs. I enjoyed reading it.
> 
> My advice to newbies to the guide dog life is to really know your needs and
> desires and dealbreakers in the ideal dog for you. What kind of lifestyle
> do you live, household make up (kids? What ages? Other pets?), etc. Be open
> to breed you will accept. As far as scavenging goes, none of my labs were
> big on doing that. It might happen very occasionally. Alot of that happens
> when you aren't as attentive to what your dog is doing when you are in
> areas where there is likely to be food on the floor or ground. A head
> collar does wonders in discouraging this behavior. Nothing is perfect in
> life. I love The Seeing Eye but acknowledge that they have their
> imperfections. Schools are run by imperfect humans. Like all living beings,
> there will be imperfections. Realize this as you explore the various
> schools. Large or small every program has something for everyone's needs.
> 
> Lyn and Aristotle
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 8:24 AM Jordan Gallacher via NAGDU 
>> wrote:
>> September was right in the middle, and up until October 31st of 2012 when
>> she was attacked, nothing phased her.  If I were to end up with a dog
>> similar to her, I would be happy.
>> Jordan
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU  On Behalf Of Mike Hingson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2020 11:06 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> 
>> Cc: mike at michaelhingson.com; 'Tracy Carcione' 
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Question Regarding Guide Dog Schools
>> Tracy,
>> Having received my latest black lab from GDB in 2018 I assure you that not
>> all their dogs are too soft. The newer training techniques actually give
>> GDB
>> the ability to better train dogs for a variety of work environments.
>> Best Regards,
>> Michael Hingson
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2020 6:36 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> 
>> Cc: Tracy Carcione 
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Question Regarding Guide Dog Schools
>> Hi Megan.
>> My dog is from The Seeing Eye.  My boy is a lab, but they have enough
>> shepherds to easily serve the people who are devoted to that breed.  The
>> Seeing Eye does not do home training for first-time guide dog users, so far
>> as I know. Many people have asked, but I've never heard of anyone getting
>> it, as a first-timer.
>> They are an excellent school, and their shepherds are high-quality.
>> I had dogs from GDB for many years.  I was very happy with them, though
>> that
>> was before GDB substantially changed its training methods.  I am not sure
>> that their current dogs are tough enough to work in the urban conditions I
>> live and work in.  I hear they're very soft now. But, more to the point,
>> part of the reason I switched to TSE is that I live about 45 minutes away
>> from the school.  I train in very similar conditions to the places I live
>> and work.  If I have a problem, someone can be out to help me pretty
>> quickly, much faster than it took for someone from GDB to arrange a plane
>> flight, if they felt it was worth that much effort.  I think it's something
>> to consider when choosing a school, if a person happens to live near one
>> they feel is of good quality.
>> Tracy
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Janell via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 5:06 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Question Regarding Guide Dog Schools
>> Hello,
>> I have a very good friend with a GS from Fidelco who is an absolute dream
>> of
>> a guide dog!  He is a long hair, black male GS that has been a terrific
>> guide, could not ask for more out of a guide dog!!  I can hook you up with
>> him if you are interested, you can email me off line at:
>> nellie at culodge.com
>> Good luck in whatever school you decide on, Janell and Miss Rosy from
>> Occupaws out of Madison Wi
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU  On Behalf Of Megan Borella via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 3:19 PM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Megan Borella 
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Question Regarding Guide Dog Schools
>> Hello,
>> I am in the process of choosing a guide dog school to apply to in order to
>> obtain my first guide, and was hoping to receive input from recent
>> graduates
>> regarding the programs I am considering. I would very much like to work
>> with
>> a German Shepherd, but have found that options for this breed are more
>> limited than I had expected. I live in California, and no schools in my
>> vicinity breed German Shepherds, which is why Fidelco's program caught my
>> eye. Their in-home training was also of interest to me, as I would prefer
>> to
>> not have to go to a program in a different state for an extended period of
>> time.
>> However, as I have conducted more thorough research, stories I have heard
>> about Fidelco, its policies, and the quality of the guides it has produced
>> in the past decade have raised some serious concerns. Does anyone know if
>> Fidelco has undergone any improvements? Is their program worth applying to?
>> I also know that the Seeing Eye is another school that specializes in
>> German
>> Shepherds, although I do not know if they would be willing to conduct
>> in-home training. Has anyone graduated from their program recently who
>> might
>> be able to provide feedback?
>> Finally, I live very near Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc., which I have
>> heard
>> nothing but wonderful things about. I have visited their campus and adopted
>> one of their dogs through their career change program, and she could not
>> have been any better. My only hesitation about applying to their program is
>> that they do not breed German shepherds. Either way, the quality of the dog
>> matters to me more than the breed. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether
>> the quality of the schools that do specialize in German shepherds is high
>> enough to warrant submitting an application?
>> Thank you so much,
>> Megan
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