[NAGDU] Introduction and Resolutions

Debbie Malone dmalone510 at gmail.com
Sun Jul 11 20:54:05 UTC 2021


Richard,
I went through Freedom Guide Dogs, that only does Hometown Training(tm). My
trainer was a wonderful man who trained dogs for 62 years and recently
retired. he still assists his former student when his health lets him.
Freedom has some great trainers and puppy raisers. Yes, you could say I am
a bit prejudiced. I also did not get my first dog until I was in my
early 50's. Freedom was and continues to be a great support. I can call
with any questions. I don't feel afraid that they will take my dog. I am
now on my second dog from them.

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 4:28 PM Diane Graves via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:

> Hi Richard,
>
> Well, I got the dog from the Guide Dog Foundation, but the trainer they
> sent was not actually someone who works at the school. He is a contractor
> who does offsite training and works with various schools, I guess. I think
> the foundation is a good and reputable school. I just should have gone to
> the campus and been trained by one of their instructors. I was just afraid
> to leave at the time due to the uncertainty of my husband's health.
>
> They did send out another trainer to work with me after the fact, but I
> think a lot of damage had already been done by the initial experience.
>
> It took me a long time to relax.
>
> Diane graves
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Richard via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2021 4:16 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <
> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: richardfiorello716 at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Introduction and Resolutions
>
> Hello Diane and list:
> I'm curious as to which school you used for home training?  I'm a year or
> two away from my next dog but home training is one of those things that
> sounds appealing to me.  I tried it once with geb and it was a total
> disaster not so much because of the instructor but the dog they brought
> should never have gone out.  I kept him for a painful year and gave up and
> he had a career change to the fire department.  If you prefer to reply off
> list my email is richardfiorello716 at gmail.com Thanks Richard
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Diane Graves via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2021 3:53 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <
> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: rdgraves2007 at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Introduction and Resolutions
>
> Good Afternoon,
>
> First, I would like to take the opportunity to introduce myself to the
> group. My name is Diane Graves. I have been a federationist for about 25
> years now. Only four of those years have been spent as a guide dog user. A
> few of you may know me from the NAGDU and Guidedog Handlers' facebook
> groups.
>
> I didn't make the decision to switch from a cane as my primary mobility
> aid to using a guide dog until I was in my fifties, so I don't have the
> years of experience that many of you have. The learning curve has been a
> steep one, as I probably didn't pick up on some techniques as quickly as I
> might have had I started in my 20s, but we are getting there. After
> attending the seminar last week I was eager to subscribe to this list and
> learn all I could from more seasoned users.
>
> The discussion about respect and dignity requirements really caught my
> attention. Though my late start may have played a part in my extended
> acclamation to the new travel method, I also felt very much minimized and
> disrespected by my trainer. I received in home training. I realize now that
> this was probably a mistake for my first dog, but at the time my husband
> was terminally ill, and I was afraid to leave. Anyway, the trainer sent by
> the school was very intimidating and not encouraging at all. That respect
> component just wasn't there. I was afraid to ask a lot of questions,
> because I was afraid they would take my girl back and leave.
>
> At any rate, I mirror what others have said. I can't quite understand why
> our organization is so steadfast about most other issues--as well they
> should be--but feels that we should "stand down" when it comes to issues of
> concern about guide dogs and their handlers.
>
> I don't have any of the facts about or any idea what was going on with the
> case in Florida. I don't know whether there were reports of the dog being
> abused or not being taken care of or what. Maybe there were reports of the
> handler not working the dog enough? Who knows? But there should have been
> an opportunity for the handler to be heard. How is this act and method of
> removing the dog any different than CPS barging in and thinking they have
> the right to remove a child, simply because the parent is blind. Isn't it
> the same concept?
>
> Just my thoughts. Looking forward to getting to know all of you.
>
> Diane Graves
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2021 1:49 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <
> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Resolutions
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I agree with you, Tracy. I wanted to speak for that resolution, but I
> thought I had missed the deadline, so I didn't put my name in the ring. Now
> I've learned my lesson because I think they would have allowed me to speak.
>
> Anyway, I totally supported the resolution and am grateful for those who
> put it forward. We do need to work towards strong, positive working
> relationships with the guide dog schools. But that doesn't mean we forget
> who we are. President Riccobono mentioned several times in his banquet
> speech last night that we need to remember who we are and that we aren't
> going back. This means that we need to remember that these schools are
> agencies, like rehab agencies or lighthouse agencies. We have demanded
> accountability from those other agencies, so why not our schools? Why not
> demand nothing less than transparencies in their processes and procedures?
> Before someone agrees to go to a school, that person should know what kind
> of contract they will be presented with when they get that dog. They should
> also be aware of what their rights are if the school wants to remove a dog,
> and they should have a straightforward method for defending themselves. I
> don't think this is too much to ask.
>
> We can work with the schools on these things, and we can be kind.
> Being firm and demanding respect need not be negative or nasty. We won't
> name call, threaten unjustly, or attack individuals. I agree those things
> are not ok and will not get us the respect we desire. But we can be firm in
> our principles and show our love for our fellow guide dog users by standing
> up for their rights.
>
> I understand there are guide dog users who want us to leave the schools
> alone altogether. That is entirely counterproductive to our mission as
> federationists, to achieve equality, opportunity, and security as blind
> people. We did not ((and don't) receive respect from the rehab agencies by
> ignoring them and allowing them to do their thing. We cannot do the same
> with the guide dog schools. These schools make mistakes and make poor
> policy decisions. We can see this in their advertising, in how the schools
> treat clients, and yes, even in how they handle tough situations involving
> dog removals. NAGDU should be a safe place where guide dog users can report
> on their experiences with a school, good or bad, and they will be heard
> with openness and without defensiveness on behalf of a school. This is
> difficult because these schools grant us something no rehab agency ever
> could: a family member and a bond that we can find nowhere else. I get
> that, but it's important to be able to take that step back and recognize
> that our dogs are a reflection of the school's training, not their policies
> towards consumers.
>
> I plan to email President Riccobono to see how I can help us fulfill this
> resolution. If the NAGDU board already has some committees looking into
> school policies and reaching out to schools, I'd love to help. One more
> thought: it became clear to me during the resolutions meeting that we need
> more guide dog users serving in national roles such as on the resolutions
> committee. We had what, two guide dog users on the resolutions committee. I
> think it will help our fellow federationists who don't use guide dogs to
> understand what we deal with if we can work directly with them when these
> resolutions come through.
>
> Thanks for reading,
>
> Julie
>
>
> On 7/11/21, Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > You are so right on, Tracy. Respect and dignity are the bottom line.
> > Any school that won't work with us as equal adults will shape up if
> > they find we dont support them by us choosing to go there. I saw the
> > resolution that passed as a "sit up and pay attention" to the schools
> > as to who their customers are.
> >
> > I think Seeing Eye is a school whose founders believed in the dignity
> > of their customers from the school's birth and continues to this day.
> > Most of the other schools havent been run by blind folks from their
> > births. So they still have a legacy of having the typical attitudes
> > towards blindness. We can help some of these schools in changing those
> negative attitudes.
> >
> > Personally, I have attended several schools in my long time as a guide
> > dog user. I have experienced paternalism at one of them. I have been
> > treated with respect and dignity at Seeing Eye. They have been
> > excellent in respecting my gender change and my pronouns even though
> > some longtime staff knew me before my transition.
> >
> > Lyn (he, him, his) and Aristotle
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:01 AM Debbie Malone via NAGDU
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I agree that we should have good relationships with guide dog
> >> training programs, but not at the expense of our dignity. As
> >> advocates we must be willing to right wrongs no matter the cost. Any
> >> practices that are unjust, demeaning, unfair, or just plain wrong
> >> must be addressed. If it can't be done amicably, then we need to do
> >> what it takes. After all it is not just about us, but about those who
> come after us.
> >>
> >> Remember something. We are the training schools' customers. Without
> >> us they don't exist. We must demand respect and fairness in all
> >> phases of the process, from choosing the best program to the
> >> application process to receiving our dogs to any followup. Never
> >> should we be mistreated or not part of the process.
> >>
> >> I am grateful that the due process resolution passed but am also
> >> disappointed that it was only by a narrow margin. Why are guide dog
> >> issues less important than other issues?
> >>
> >> Let's keep our independence, confidence, dignity, and our rights to
> >> choose to use a guide dog. Thank you to those willing to stand for what
> is right.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 10:26 AM Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I agree it's best not to be adversarial, if possible, but I insist
> >> > on respect.  A good relationship is a 2-way street.  I'm not sure
> >> > some schools, or perhaps some school leadership, respect us.
> >> > Tracy
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy
> >> > Ray via NAGDU
> >> > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2021 10:01 AM
> >> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> > Cc: Cindy Ray
> >> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Resolutions
> >> >
> >> > I think that the resolution withdrawn had some inaccuracies in it
> >> > that would not have been well to pursue, and it is my understanding
> >> > that the resolutions committee may have asked some questions that
> >> > made it harder
> >> to
> >> > support. That’s not to say it couldn’t come up again next year.
> >> > I think the other resolution’s passage was a good thing, but I
> >> > would like to speak to the relationship with the schools. I think
> >> > we have to be firm in our beliefs about what the schools should and
> >> > should not do. However,
> >> we
> >> > really may stand a better chance of getting what we want from them
> >> > if we can develop a working relationship with them. If our
> >> > relationship with
> >> them
> >> > is adversarial, they won’t listen to us at all. The Board had voted
> >> > in favor of sending that resolution forward, and I am still glad we
> >> > did. I think it does let them know we are watchful, and I think it
> >> > does open the door to our dialoging with them when we see problems.
> >> > I don’t think that
> >> is
> >> > the same as kneeling before the school with our had in our hand,
> >> > our head bowed, and saying that whatever they do is fine.
> >> > Cindy
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > On Jul 11, 2021, at 7:31 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > We of NAGDU had what I thought were 3 good resolutions this year.
> >> > > 1
> >> was
> >> > > withdrawn because, in the end, leadership didn't support it.
> >> Leadership
> >> > > wants to "build good relationships with schools".  Well, OK...
> >> > >
> >> > > Another, demanding a real due process when a dog is taken away,
> >> > > and demanding that schools provide all materials in accessible
> >> > > formats, was
> >> > by
> >> > > far the most controversial of all the resolutions presented to
> >> > > the convention.  I was shocked and dismayed.  One person who
> >> > > spoke in
> >> > opposition
> >> > > said again that we want to build good relations with the schools.
> >> > > Seriously?  Are we to come, with bowed head and hat in hand,
> >> > > saying
> >> > Please
> >> > > sirs, our members would like to tell their side of the story
> >> > > should
> >> their
> >> > > dog be taken away?  Really?
> >> > >
> >> > > I still remember, from many years ago, my first impressions of
> >> > > the
> >> Seeing
> >> > > Eye graduates at convention.  They were not afraid to speak their
> >> > > minds
> >> > when
> >> > > they thought their school had made a faux pas.  I was shocked,
> >> > > and impressed.  They clearly expected to be treated as
> >> > > intelligent adults
> >> > with a
> >> > > place at the table.  They were courteous, but firm in their
> opinions.
> >> > After
> >> > > all, adults can have differences of opinion, and discuss them as
> >> equals.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm not sure all guide dog users feel like that.  I guess there
> >> > > was a
> >> > time
> >> > > when I did not, when I was a young newby.  I can understand
> >> > owner-trainers'
> >> > > perspective even better than I already did.  I would not wish to
> >> > > hand
> >> > power
> >> > > over me to someone who does not respect my abilities.
> >> > >
> >> > > I sometimes think guide dog users are the most timid of all
> >> > Federationists,
> >> > > when it comes to speaking truth to power.  I understand why some
> >> > > would
> >> > be,
> >> > > but it's not my idea of what it means to be a Federationist.
> >> > >
> >> > > Tracy
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > NAGDU mailing list
> >> > > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> >> > > for
> >> > NAGDU:
> >> > >
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.c
> >> om
> >> >
> >> >
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> >> >
> >> >
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> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *Debbie Malone*
> >> *InclusionEducation.com *
> >> Amazon Author Page <https://www.amazon.com/~/e/B07RVCRR5R>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
> --
> Julie A. McGinnity
> MM Vocal Performance, 2015; American University Washington College of Law,
> JD Candidate 2023
>
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-- 
*Debbie Malone*
*InclusionEducation.com *
Amazon Author Page <https://www.amazon.com/~/e/B07RVCRR5R>


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