[NAGDU] Introduction and Resolutions

Sun Jul 11 22:14:16 UTC 2021

Michael,
You are right. NAGDU had nothing to do with Rev. Blake getting her dog
back. ASAP (Advocates for Service Animal Partners helped. Rev. Blake
herself got a lawyer. She has her DIDI back, but there still has to be a
trial. NAGDU did not help.
Rev. Blake was devastated, as was her dog. This should never happen to
anyone.

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 4:45 PM Michael Hingson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:

> That works if you have the chance to resist. In March when Rev. Blake's
> dog was removed, Susan was holding her dog on leash and, as I and others on
> this list have heard it, a representative from SEGDI simply unhooked the
> leash and took the dog. It all happened so fast that Rev. Blake had no time
> to react.
>
> What is worse is that NAGDU has NOT been involved in any way to address
> this issue. Rev. Blake got her dog back with the help of others and NOT
> NAGDU.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sheila via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2021 1:07 PM
> To: Diane Graves via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sheila <sheila.leigland at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Introduction and Resolutions
>
> as far as i'm concerned, there is absolutely no difference. Just as I
> wouldn't just let someone take my child, I would let noone take my dog.
>
> On 7/11/2021 1:52 PM, Diane Graves via NAGDU wrote:
> > Good Afternoon,
> >
> > First, I would like to take the opportunity to introduce myself to the
> group. My name is Diane Graves. I have been a federationist for about 25
> years now. Only four of those years have been spent as a guide dog user. A
> few of you may know me from the NAGDU and Guidedog Handlers' facebook
> groups.
> >
> > I didn't make the decision to switch from a cane as my primary mobility
> aid to using a guide dog until I was in my fifties, so I don't have the
> years of experience that many of you have. The learning curve has been a
> steep one, as I probably didn't pick up on some techniques as quickly as I
> might have had I started in my 20s, but we are getting there. After
> attending the seminar last week I was eager to subscribe to this list and
> learn all I could from more seasoned users.
> >
> > The discussion about respect and dignity requirements really caught my
> attention. Though my late start may have played a part in my extended
> acclamation to the new travel method, I also felt very much minimized and
> disrespected by my trainer. I received in home training. I realize now that
> this was probably a mistake for my first dog, but at the time my husband
> was terminally ill, and I was afraid to leave. Anyway, the trainer sent by
> the school was very intimidating and not encouraging at all. That respect
> component just wasn't there. I was afraid to ask a lot of questions,
> because I was afraid they would take my girl back and leave.
> >
> > At any rate, I mirror what others have said. I can't quite understand
> why our organization is so steadfast about most other issues--as well they
> should be--but feels that we should "stand down" when it comes to issues of
> concern about guide dogs and their handlers.
> >
> > I don't have any of the facts about or any idea what was going on with
> the case in Florida. I don't know whether there were reports of the dog
> being abused or not being taken care of or what. Maybe there were reports
> of the handler not working the dog enough? Who knows? But there should have
> been an opportunity for the handler to be heard. How is this act and method
> of removing the dog any different than CPS barging in and thinking they
> have the right to remove a child, simply because the parent is blind. Isn't
> it the same concept?
> >
> > Just my thoughts. Looking forward to getting to know all of you.
> >
> > Diane Graves
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity
> > via NAGDU
> > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2021 1:49 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Resolutions
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I agree with you, Tracy. I wanted to speak for that resolution, but I
> thought I had missed the deadline, so I didn't put my name in the ring. Now
> I've learned my lesson because I think they would have allowed me to speak.
> >
> > Anyway, I totally supported the resolution and am grateful for those who
> put it forward. We do need to work towards strong, positive working
> relationships with the guide dog schools. But that doesn't mean we forget
> who we are. President Riccobono mentioned several times in his banquet
> speech last night that we need to remember who we are and that we aren't
> going back. This means that we need to remember that these schools are
> agencies, like rehab agencies or lighthouse agencies. We have demanded
> accountability from those other agencies, so why not our schools? Why not
> demand nothing less than transparencies in their processes and procedures?
> Before someone agrees to go to a school, that person should know what kind
> of contract they will be presented with when they get that dog. They should
> also be aware of what their rights are if the school wants to remove a dog,
> and they should have a straightforward method for defending themselves. I
> don't think this is too much to ask.
> >
> > We can work with the schools on these things, and we can be kind.
> > Being firm and demanding respect need not be negative or nasty. We won't
> name call, threaten unjustly, or attack individuals. I agree those things
> are not ok and will not get us the respect we desire. But we can be firm in
> our principles and show our love for our fellow guide dog users by standing
> up for their rights.
> >
> > I understand there are guide dog users who want us to leave the schools
> alone altogether. That is entirely counterproductive to our mission as
> federationists, to achieve equality, opportunity, and security as blind
> people. We did not ((and don't) receive respect from the rehab agencies by
> ignoring them and allowing them to do their thing. We cannot do the same
> with the guide dog schools. These schools make mistakes and make poor
> policy decisions. We can see this in their advertising, in how the schools
> treat clients, and yes, even in how they handle tough situations involving
> dog removals. NAGDU should be a safe place where guide dog users can report
> on their experiences with a school, good or bad, and they will be heard
> with openness and without defensiveness on behalf of a school. This is
> difficult because these schools grant us something no rehab agency ever
> could: a family member and a bond that we can find nowhere else. I get
> that, but it's important to be able to take that step back and recognize
> that our dogs are a reflection of the school's training, not their policies
> towards consumers.
> >
> > I plan to email President Riccobono to see how I can help us fulfill
> this resolution. If the NAGDU board already has some committees looking
> into school policies and reaching out to schools, I'd love to help. One
> more thought: it became clear to me during the resolutions meeting that we
> need more guide dog users serving in national roles such as on the
> resolutions committee. We had what, two guide dog users on the resolutions
> committee. I think it will help our fellow federationists who don't use
> guide dogs to understand what we deal with if we can work directly with
> them when these resolutions come through.
> >
> > Thanks for reading,
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
> > On 7/11/21, Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >> You are so right on, Tracy. Respect and dignity are the bottom line.
> >> Any school that won't work with us as equal adults will shape up if
> >> they find we dont support them by us choosing to go there. I saw the
> >> resolution that passed as a "sit up and pay attention" to the schools
> >> as to who their customers are.
> >>
> >> I think Seeing Eye is a school whose founders believed in the dignity
> >> of their customers from the school's birth and continues to this day.
> >> Most of the other schools havent been run by blind folks from their
> >> births. So they still have a legacy of having the typical attitudes
> >> towards blindness. We can help some of these schools in changing those
> negative attitudes.
> >>
> >> Personally, I have attended several schools in my long time as a
> >> guide dog user. I have experienced paternalism at one of them. I have
> >> been treated with respect and dignity at Seeing Eye. They have been
> >> excellent in respecting my gender change and my pronouns even though
> >> some longtime staff knew me before my transition.
> >>
> >> Lyn (he, him, his) and Aristotle
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:01 AM Debbie Malone via NAGDU
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I agree that we should have good relationships with guide dog
> >>> training programs, but not at the expense of our dignity. As
> >>> advocates we must be willing to right wrongs no matter the cost. Any
> >>> practices that are unjust, demeaning, unfair, or just plain wrong
> >>> must be addressed. If it can't be done amicably, then we need to do
> >>> what it takes. After all it is not just about us, but about those who
> come after us.
> >>>
> >>> Remember something. We are the training schools' customers. Without
> >>> us they don't exist. We must demand respect and fairness in all
> >>> phases of the process, from choosing the best program to the
> >>> application process to receiving our dogs to any followup. Never
> >>> should we be mistreated or not part of the process.
> >>>
> >>> I am grateful that the due process resolution passed but am also
> >>> disappointed that it was only by a narrow margin. Why are guide dog
> >>> issues less important than other issues?
> >>>
> >>> Let's keep our independence, confidence, dignity, and our rights to
> >>> choose to use a guide dog. Thank you to those willing to stand for
> what is right.
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 10:26 AM Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I agree it's best not to be adversarial, if possible, but I insist
> >>>> on respect.  A good relationship is a 2-way street.  I'm not sure
> >>>> some schools, or perhaps some school leadership, respect us.
> >>>> Tracy
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy
> >>>> Ray via NAGDU
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2021 10:01 AM
> >>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
> >>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Resolutions
> >>>>
> >>>> I think that the resolution withdrawn had some inaccuracies in it
> >>>> that would not have been well to pursue, and it is my understanding
> >>>> that the resolutions committee may have asked some questions that
> >>>> made it harder
> >>> to
> >>>> support. That’s not to say it couldn’t come up again next year.
> >>>> I think the other resolution’s passage was a good thing, but I
> >>>> would like to speak to the relationship with the schools. I think
> >>>> we have to be firm in our beliefs about what the schools should and
> >>>> should not do. However,
> >>> we
> >>>> really may stand a better chance of getting what we want from them
> >>>> if we can develop a working relationship with them. If our
> >>>> relationship with
> >>> them
> >>>> is adversarial, they won’t listen to us at all. The Board had voted
> >>>> in favor of sending that resolution forward, and I am still glad we
> >>>> did. I think it does let them know we are watchful, and I think it
> >>>> does open the door to our dialoging with them when we see problems.
> >>>> I don’t think that
> >>> is
> >>>> the same as kneeling before the school with our had in our hand,
> >>>> our head bowed, and saying that whatever they do is fine.
> >>>> Cindy
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jul 11, 2021, at 7:31 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> We of NAGDU had what I thought were 3 good resolutions this year.
> >>>>> 1
> >>> was
> >>>>> withdrawn because, in the end, leadership didn't support it.
> >>> Leadership
> >>>>> wants to "build good relationships with schools".  Well, OK...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another, demanding a real due process when a dog is taken away,
> >>>>> and demanding that schools provide all materials in accessible
> >>>>> formats, was
> >>>> by
> >>>>> far the most controversial of all the resolutions presented to the
> >>>>> convention.  I was shocked and dismayed.  One person who spoke in
> >>>> opposition
> >>>>> said again that we want to build good relations with the schools.
> >>>>> Seriously?  Are we to come, with bowed head and hat in hand,
> >>>>> saying
> >>>> Please
> >>>>> sirs, our members would like to tell their side of the story
> >>>>> should
> >>> their
> >>>>> dog be taken away?  Really?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I still remember, from many years ago, my first impressions of the
> >>> Seeing
> >>>>> Eye graduates at convention.  They were not afraid to speak their
> >>>>> minds
> >>>> when
> >>>>> they thought their school had made a faux pas.  I was shocked, and
> >>>>> impressed.  They clearly expected to be treated as intelligent
> >>>>> adults
> >>>> with a
> >>>>> place at the table.  They were courteous, but firm in their opinions.
> >>>> After
> >>>>> all, adults can have differences of opinion, and discuss them as
> >>> equals.
> >>>>> I'm not sure all guide dog users feel like that.  I guess there
> >>>>> was a
> >>>> time
> >>>>> when I did not, when I was a young newby.  I can understand
> >>>> owner-trainers'
> >>>>> perspective even better than I already did.  I would not wish to
> >>>>> hand
> >>>> power
> >>>>> over me to someone who does not respect my abilities.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I sometimes think guide dog users are the most timid of all
> >>>> Federationists,
> >>>>> when it comes to speaking truth to power.  I understand why some
> >>>>> would
> >>>> be,
> >>>>> but it's not my idea of what it means to be a Federationist.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tracy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >>>> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.
> >>> c
> >>> om
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>> for
> >>>> NAGDU:
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40acces
> >>>> s.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>> for
> >>>> NAGDU:
> >>>>
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dmalone510%40gmai
> >>> l
> >>> .com
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> *Debbie Malone*
> >>> *InclusionEducation.com *
> >>> Amazon Author Page <https://www.amazon.com/~/e/B07RVCRR5R>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>> for
> >>> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/gwizdaklyn%40gmai
> >>> l
> >>> .com
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.
> >> c
> >> om
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Julie A. McGinnity
> > MM Vocal Performance, 2015; American University Washington College of
> > Law, JD Candidate 2023
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rdgraves2007%40gmai
> > l.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sheila.leigland%40g
> > mail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhingson.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dmalone510%40gmail.com
>

-- 
*Debbie Malone*
*InclusionEducation.com *
Amazon Author Page <https://www.amazon.com/~/e/B07RVCRR5R>