[NAGDU] Eye dog foundation application

Wed Jul 14 00:23:30 UTC 2021

Southeastern’s  mandatory retirement is  at 11.

When I got my first dog Franklin they  weren't as tight on rules.

> On Jul 13, 2021, at 2:47 PM, Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Thank you to the poster who sent the detailed information about eye dog foundation. I agree, their site could definitely use some work. Also, it seems fairly clear that they’re using information from previous websites or brochures. Well, at least I sure hope they are. For instance, I sure hope they have Wi-Fi, and not just a payphone, I would imagine they have a phone in each room, where you can hit nine to get an outside line, and then just pay for the charges, or Wi-Fi, or at least good cell service so you can use your own phone. Again, at least I hope that’s the case. Very interesting, because from the information it appears as if you eat lunch off-campus, possibly dinner off-campus too, and traveling to places to do active training, is quite a ways away. I am guessing that the actual site of the campus is in a very rural area then. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but definitely noteworthy. for A bit of Perspective, it’s not actually that unusual to have a very short simple application request form. A lot of Guide Dogs schools don’t do that, but many service dog schools do, part of it is weeding out applicants who are not even remotely good candidates before they spend their time filling out an application, or the staff spend their time reviewing it. I will have to see how accessible that request form is, it doesn’t seem like it would be, which is a shame. Definitely renewed my interest in interviewing the school, sooner rather than later. I will reach out today and see what I can get set up. I think I will look at resuming the school interview calls in August, and I should be able to finish them up by the end of the year. We will need lots of participants to make these calls, well these zoom meetings this time around, effective.
> 
> You mentioned that your dog retires at 11, does the training program you got your dog from require mandatory retirement at age 11? That must be very frustrating for you. Some dogs need to retire as early as six or seven years old, and others can work until they’re 15 or 16, so having an arbitrary retirement age seems a little bit rigid to me. I personally, would take issue with a policy like that, when considering the school to apply to. I understand the schools want to ensure that dogs get a good retirement, and aren’t pushed to work longer than they are able, however, I would hope they would have more faith in the handler, to care about their dog, and read their dogs signs, and make an appropriate retirement, decision, Whether that would be at age 6, or age 16, or anything in between those two. Most dogs are very good about letting their handler know when they just want to be done. And, I know a few dogs, mostly Shepherd’s, although I also know a golden retriever, who worked until the day they died. They love their job so much, that they became distressed when they were retired, and so, they continued working the rest of their life, on routes that were somewhat modified, but they were happy and glad to do it. Obviously, this is not the norm, but every dog is an individual for sure.
> 
> Lets  see, now, too The schools you mentioned in your post. Guiding Eyes For The Blind is a great school, but they don’t have very many Shepherd’s available, so while I would find it annoying, if I was a first time shepherd handler, being told they would not consider me, or  would not necessarily consider me for a shepherd, I absolutely understand where they’re coming from. Shepherds are wonderful, but they are very challenging, and while Fidelco, or The Seeing Eye, will issue a shepherd to a first time handler, I understand why Guiding Eyes For The blind might be reticent to do so. I haven’t heard much about their Shepherd’s, as the numbers are low, but what I have heard has been almost exclusively good. I don’t know as much about the lines of shepherds that pilot uses. I know they used to have a truly fantastic line of Dobermans, which I believe, is now the same line being used at Gallant Hearts. The only reservations that some individuals have with pilot, is that they are not, at this time, certified by IGDF   The one reservation I can offer, that is not of a personal nature, and is not intended to be school bashing, is that the degree, and type, of traffic training they offer, is different from that offered at other schools, it may, or may not be adequate for you, depending on the environment you work in, and depending on the inherent skills of the particular dog you receive. I have heard many good things about teams from pilot. They used to have a reputation that was not ideal, but they have improved over the years, and many people are satisfied with dogs from that program. It’s quite small, but Becky, the lady who runs gallant Hearts is super interesting, and very knowledgeable. The school is also not certified, but, I would say this is because of how new they are, not because of any lack in the schools quality. I have an interview call with Gallant Hearts from 2019, it was extremely interesting. They have a very unique line of golden retrievers, apparently, which was of interest to a lot of participants in the call. As a seeing eye Graduate, I can attest that their Shepherd‘s are great, they are a large school, and they will place a shepherd with a first time handler. They prefer if you let them do the matching, but if you are very clear, respectful, and firm about your desire for a shepherd, they will usually honor it. Chelsea White, is probably the representative you met with, Chelsea is awesome, although, I thought she seemed tired, or distracted, this year when she presented on behalf of The Seeing Eye. I wish she had explained more about the very refined click, and target program that Lucas Frank developed. Many schools use the clicker training, some of them do it well, some of them not so well, and some that have had a very haphazard clicker program in the past, have refined that program greatly in the last three or four years, which is awesome. With The Seeing Eye, they don’t use the clicker all the time, it is primarily used for locations, and can be used for specific problem-solving on a case by case basis. You use a target to indicate a location, and back chaining  to reinforce that location. The clicker training is optional, something I personally disagree with, I think all students should have to learn about it, whether they use it or not should be up to them, but, I feel you can’t make an informed decision about whether you like something or not, or whether it is a good choice for you, unless you give it a chance and actually learn about it fully. The Seeing Eye was very reticent to use clicker training for a long time, and didn’t roll out the program until they had refined  it, and seem to be very happy with it. As a graduate, I can tell you that I am very happy with it. So, I wish Chelsea had mentioned that in her presentation. Some thing that I think The Seeing Eye has done very well, recently, is offering a wide range of Shepherd’s, with personality similar to labradors, golden retrievers, and of course, shepherds, that can work with, perhaps, a wider variety of students, than Shepherds have historically done well with. Fidelco has amazing dogs, there’s a reason that their devotees are so loyal, and the trainers, in general, are great. The main concerns that people have had with Fidelco, seem to be regarding their administration, and some of the policies and structure of the program. Guide Dogs of America is a very neat little program, but little is an important descriptor. They are small, and therefore the waitlist is quite a bit longer, but the staff I have encountered and interviewed have been very respectful, down to earth, neither standoffish, nor patronizing. Leader has Shepherd’s, if you missed the call with leader during convention, I would suggest you get the recording and check it out, another exciting thing they have are labrador German Shepherd crosses, which could turn out to be a very versatile and interesting breed option. The thing I would consider, in your process, is wait time. Your wait time is likely to be shortest at The Seeing Eye, and longest at the eye dog foundation and Guide Dogs of America, likely with the other schools falling  somewhere in between. Freedom Guide Dogs sometimes offers German Shepherd’s, although I don’t know if they’re breeding them right now
> 
> I hope some of this content is helpful. There are certainly a lot of options out there, and it’s great that you’re doing your research. I’m a big fan of informed choice, and nothing drives me more crazy than someone saying “I got a dog from the school because it was the closest school to me. “Or “I got a dog from the school because they did a presentation at my summer camp for blind kids, it’sthe only school I really ever met, so I just went with them. “ones choice is always up to them, but making a choice it is an informed, to me, is a waste of a great opportunity, to vote with your dollars or your patronage, and to find the best possible tool and partner for you, your life, and your situation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2021, at 1:27 PM, Scott Wilson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you for your concern Heather, as you can see it was merely a proactive response and not condemning anyone for any actions. Only a reminder, and I am well aware of who the moderators are on this list but as you know they are not on here 24 hours a day seven days a week. And I will attach the braille monitor article that Heather was speaking of. It is an interesting read for sure. And I have hope that they have settled all the differences and become a better school from all of the 2008 difficult time they went through. https://nfb.org//sites/default/files/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm08/bm0811/bm081103.htm
>> 
>>> On Jul 13, 2021, at 1:12 PM, Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Scott, I have to say, that  I don’t think any of the messages were disrespectful. They definitely weren’t personally attacking, and it is a good point being made, regarding being able to get in touch with a guy dog training program. I often discourage people from applying to a service dog school that is not relatively easy to get a hold of. For instance, one program that Jim   was thinking of applying to, had only one phone number, which went to an individual voicemail it was clearly provided through a cellular carrier. We left two different voicemails to ask a few questions, and  never got a return call. This isn’t any criticism of the quality of the dogs they may produce, but, if you can’t readily get a hold of your school in case of an emergency, this can be extremely problematic, and is one indicator that it might not be a good school for you. Ididn’t hear anyone attacking eye dog foundation, or the poster, so I have to say that while I agree we should all be respectful, I didn’t see anything wrong with any of these messages. I think that Cindy does a great job moderating this list, and I’m sure that if any of us, myself included, does some thing that is disrespectful or unkind, that she will certainly call us out on it as we are all adults here and should absolutely treat each other with the same respect and dignity that we demand from Guide Dog training programs, the NFB, etc. Below, let me give you a little background on eye dog foundation that might be helpful.
>>> 
>>> Eye dog foundation is a very small school, that is actually existed for quite a while. Most indications are that for many years it was a reputable, if  very small program, training exclusively German Shepherd‘s, and holding a few very small on-campus classes per year. I know of a few teams put out by that school, and the dogs were actually very good, and people were happy with their training. However, a number of years ago, there were some significant changes at the school, there’s a braille monitor article on the subject that might be of interest. We don’t know all the details, as is the case with any controversy, The gist of the matter is having to do with the administration and the way the school was run, that resulted in a period of time where there were some serious concerns about whether or not the dogs on campus were being cared for, and allegedly, I’m inclined to believe that this is true, trainers were climbing the fences to get in and take care of the dogs. That might be an exaggeration, but there were definitely some legitimate and serious problems at that time  back in 2010,I was researching eye  dog foundation, trying to look at all of  the options which would guarantee me placement with a shepherd, this was prior to attending the seeing eye, and after knowing that I would not be returning to Fidelco for a successor. I had some serious concerns about eye  dog foundation, but I wanted to at least do my research. Sadly, I don’t have a copy of an application from that time, and it would be quite out of date. They were in such a state of flux, that  the number I called got me to the actual, I believe it was the president of the company at the time, she seemed nice enough, very energetic, she was an African-American lady, well spoken, and she seemed... I honestly can’t think of a more politically correct way to say this, she seemed kind of desperate for students. She offered to bring the dog to me, she talked up their program, and was very interested to provide me with a dog. I was having very mixed feelings, and told her I would think about it, she almost made it sound as if I didn’t need an application or didn’t need much of one, because she never mentioned sending one, and simply said she just needed my information. This of course, is not a very encouraging sign. Also, this was 11 years ago, the school may be in significantly better or worse shape at this time. As a self-proclaimed guy dog geek,  I am very interested to see how the school is doing, and I hope that it is successful and that they have ironed out difficulties. There is a dearth of quality shepherds in the United States at this time, so I would love to see a school that specializes in Shepherd succeed. I would love to see any school succeed, quite frankly. I will go look on the website and see if I can track down a copy of the application if I can I will post it here. I also seem to remember that at the time that eye dog foundation looked as if it might fold, several schools including Fidelco, and I think possibly also The Seeing eye, stepped up  offering to provide follow up to eye dog foundation graduates who might need it if they could not access it through their school. I may have that incorrect, but I believe that was the case or something close to it. I dog foundation was on my list of schools to try and interview for my school calls that I was conducting during 2019. I knew the chances of getting a hold of anyone would be low, so I was focusing on trying to get speakers from leader, Fidelco, and pilot, saving eye dog foundation for one of the last schools and making no promises about getting a a representative, as they are a small school, potentially a school in flux at the time.
>>> 
>>> I hope that  Some of this is helpful, I always find it very fascinating when schools go through major change, good or bad, when you schools begin, and when schools close. My mother had Guide Dogs from the upstate guide dog  association for many years, and we have a family friend who used to be one of the trainers. I was actually at the board meeting when the upstate guy dog association was in trouble and looking to close. I don’t know all the details except that there was some thing regarding funds, possibly embezzling of funds, and various conflicts between administration and trainers or possibly between administration and students. It was a  small home training school in upstate New York I believe it only served New York State, or a limited area in the north eastern United States. Think back in Guide Dog history, after The Seeing Eye opened and then after World War II a lot of guy dog training programs popped up, some of them were absolute disasters, poorly run, with poorly trained or dangerous dogs, questionable policies, somewhere out right scams, and some of those that started in that timeframe are well known and reputable schools today, but a lot of people don’t remember or didn’t realize how many guide dog training programs or supposed guide dog training programs popped up around that time. I see it as one of the growing pains of the guide dog movement, and service dog schools for psychiatric service dogs and medical alert dogs are expierencing  similar growing pains in the last 10 to 15 years as well, there are a number of programs out there, som of which you’re wonderful and some  of which are absolutely horrible, many that are not accredited through EDI and simply appear on the I a ADP listing or show up in Google search results. I would imagine that if a similar trajectory is to be expected, that after  about 20 or 30 years, the problematic programs will be closed and  the start ups with potential will have grown and improved, and there will be a handful of high-quality schools providing this type of dog, all or most of which will be certified by ADI, in much the same way that the majority of the  remaining guide dog schools  are certified By  IGDF at this time in the United States.  As a fun aside, for anyone interested, keep an eye on, I keep forgetting whether it is Vanguard or avant-garde, I believe it is vanguard guide dogs, a new school attempting to start up out of Florida. It looks pretty interesting, and fairly compliant with NFB philosophy, in that they are trying  to create a school that is run by people with disabilities, for people with disabilities, which at  least in theory, on paper, would be very much compatible with what the NFB stands for. It is obviously not ADI or IGDF certified at this time, it might be in time, but it is in its infancy right now. It should be an interesting process to observe for sure.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 13, 2021, at 10:58 AM, Scott Wilson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I would like to thank everybody in advance and ask that you please keep your comments and replies formed NA respectful way , Although we may not agree with the decisions of others, we must communicate respectfully and responsibly to honor their own decision to go to the school that they desire.  
>>>> 
>>>> Scott Wilson
>>>> Secretary
>>>> National Association of guide dog users
>>>> Call 727-423-4312
>>>> swilson at nagdu.org
>>>> secretary at nagdu.org
>>>> board at nagdu.org
>>>> Don’t be afraid to give up the good, to go for the great.
>>>> 
>>>> Jay. D. Rockefeller
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 13, 2021, at 10:46 AM, Star Gazer via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>                     Exactly, and why expect anybody on the list to have a contract, this isn’t a drug deal, it’s business with what should be a legitimate enterprise. If they won’t act like a reputable business, why would you want to deal with them? 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 10:42 AM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Eye dog foundation application
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Sean.
>>>>> Are you sure you want to apply to a place that's hard to get hold of from
>>>>> the very start, when it should be the easiest to reach them?  I'd think it
>>>>> would be even harder to reach them when I was having a problem, if I can't
>>>>> even reach Admissions.
>>>>> JMO.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sean Moore via
>>>>> NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 9:40 AM
>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>>> Cc: Sean Moore
>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Eye dog foundation application
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does  anyone  have  a  digital  copy  of  eye dog foundations Application?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since  their  so  hard  to  get a  hold  of.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Sean  Moore 
>>>>> 
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