[NAGDU] doggy repo

Mon Mar 8 13:48:01 UTC 2021

As Cindy says, there are members who think it's fine for the schools to retain ownership.  So it might be more productive to work on getting some kind of due process, so that a neutral party can hear both sides and mediate, rather than a school just swooping in and taking a dog with no recourse for the handler.  Can we all agree on that?  Otherwise, the thing seems ripe for intimidation and bullying.  Handlers will keep their heads down and not make waves, for fear they would get on someone's bad guy list.

Ownership is part of why I switched to The Seeing Eye.  And, before I switched, I noticed how TSE graduates were willing to speak out and challenge their school when they thought they were making poor choices.  They expected to be treated as equal participants in the school's success.  It made a strong impression on me.
Tracy

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2021 10:35 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] doggy repo

One issue we have, as I see it, is that the membership itself is not agreed on ownership. Many believe the schools have the right to maintain ownership of the dogs because after all, a lot of money goes into the training. I think that’s paternalistic; I think removing a dog because it is over weight is as well, but I might work with someone on nutrition. Everyone’s knowledge of dog nutrition isn’t equal. It is wrong and nothing short of bullying to remove a dog in the manner we have seen described.
As for anonymous complaints, someone called The Seeing Eye about me. They did not tell me who right off, but when it c

came up, they did. The thing that is so difficult is that this often ends up being a “he said” “she said” thing, but I think it is good for us to investigate.
Cindy
cindyray at gmail.com <mailto:cindyray at gmail.com>

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:02 PM, Jenine Stanley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> HI All, 
> 
> Just a couple thoughts on this issue from a former guide dog school employee. 
> 
> First of all, this is, as noted, very inappropriate treatment of graduates, regardless the program. 
> 
> I have been one of the people charged with helping to investigate claims of neglect and abuse. I had to set up with local authorities two different instances of reclaiming dogs because of documented abuse. We couldn’t just send someone out to grab the dog. We went through the proper authorities. This is not easy. Most local animal abuse codes don’t address the same standard of care expected of a guide dog handler. Sadly, both incidents I mentioned above had violated even the very loose local rules 
> 
> That said, if we repossessed every dog that was over weight, first we’d have to agree on weight standards. One of our instructors at GDF, who is now retired, liked to see dogs on the very thin side and would berate graduates publicly if she felt their dogs were not at an appropriate weight, regardless of the body shape of the dog or any other factors. She and the GDF vets did not agree on weight and it got very ugly at times. 
> 
> It never got to the point of taking a dog. The position at the time was that if we had solid evidence that the handler was not making efforts to get the weight under control, we did not have to serve that person with another dog. 
> 
> I’d ask NAGDU to look carefully at the standards and contracts recommended by Assistance Dogs International and IGDF, the voluntary accrediting body for guide dog programs. The ADI rules are pretty strict and since GDF has a sister organization, America’s VetDogs, that falls under ADI accreditation, I’m quite familiar with the ADI rules. No ownership by handlers. Schools do need to have an appeal process and stick to it but dogs can be reclaimed for weight issues. 
> 
> I’ve made it known, and will continue to do so, that I’m not a fan of ADI’s administration. It’s not something you want to say too loudly when working for a guide dog school, but hey, I’m not doing that anymore so you have been warned. That said, there are some good, respectful and truly enlightened people within ADI. I met very few of them. 
> 
> Jenine, still waiting for her next dog 
> 
>> On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:45 PM, Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Richard,
>> 
>> 	As I mentioned in another post, the Guide Dog Foundation transfers
>> ownership upon completion of training. They will not repossess a dog
>> unilaterally; they will contact the local animal services and have them
>> investigate it. In fact, GDF will not take anonymous complaints. If a
>> complainant refuses to divulge their contact information, they wil refuse to
>> take the complaint. This is how it should be with all guide dog training
>> programs. Anything less is paternalistic and undignified!
>> 
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>> 
>> 
>> Marion Gwizdala
>> (813) 626-2789
>> Blind411 at verizon.net
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Richard via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 2:29 PM
>> To: NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: richardfiorello716 at gmail.com
>> Subject: [NAGDU] doggy repo
>> 
>> Hi;
>> 
>> While I'm at my keyboard: I would have never thought that a school would
>> basically repossess a guide dog unless there were cruelty complaints.
>> Unfortunately, someone locally had an incident with guide dog foundation
>> when an instructor came out to "help" with an intersection that was a
>> problem.  Fortunately she got the dog back from the school after they worked
>> with it and to my surprise will be getting another guide from them soon.
>> 
>> Richard
>> 
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> 
> 
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