[NAGDU] doggy repo

Wed Mar 10 17:03:19 UTC 2021

Hello Sharon:

First let me say congratulations to you and your new guide.  I hope the two of you have many years of safe travels together.  Tara was two years old when I got her.  The Guide Dog Foundation vet knew she had hip dysplasia because it showed up on the Xray that was taken one month before I got her.  By the time she turned three she had slowed down to half her speed and began to be reluctant to do steps.  My vet was very upset when he received a copy of the school Xray so he could do a comparison of how much deuteriation had occurred in one year.  My vet then recommended that she be retired but the school felt she was too young.  That started the very expensive daily meds, monthly shots and laser treatments.  It was fortunate that I had retired due to my own failing health so Tara did not have to work as much.  Then to me and my vet's horror he found cataracts when she was only six.  An examination from a Certified Canine Ophthalmologist revealed Tara had congenital cataracts that should have been diagnosed if examined by seeing the small cysts in the eyes of dogs with the hereditary trait for these cataracts.  I still remember that day with the head of the Perdue University opt homology Clinic and all her students had to tell a totally blind woman that her still young six year old golden was losing her sight.  Some of the students were crying right along with me.  I think all guide dog schools should be checking all dogs eyes before putting them out as guides.  When I applied to Pilot Dogs where I got Eva they assured me that no dog with any defect in the shoulders, knees, hips or spine would be placed as a guide.  They also said every one of their dogs receives an examination by a certified Canine Ophthalmologist before they are eligible to be matched with a student.  In my mind, that is the correct way of doing things.  It might be a bit more expensive for the schools but since most of them are near big universities I am sure they could be given some kind of discounted services.  In my 45 years of using guide dogs I have been given too many dogs with significant behavior, poor guide work and/or health issues that should have been picked up before they were matched with me.  Therefore I can say that most schools are not doing a good enough job at breeding,  screening and training  the dogs to be sure they will be suitable as guide dogs.  They should consider how disruptive it is to be matched with a dog who is not suitable.  We have to then take more time off jobs and family to seek help that is often not enough to help so then we have to start all over with another dog.  They do not consider that putting out dogs with health issues will result  in the graduate having to pay a fortune in vet bills.  If by chance a graduates dog does have health issues after graduation it should be the full responsibility of the school to pay for all above the normal vet expenses.  All of us expect the normal annual expenses for flea prevention, heart worm and vaccines but some of us on very low incomes cannot afford hundreds of dollars every month as I had to do with Tara.  Then to add to that the insult of being told upon applying for a replacement that just because I was a current graduate, they would not guaranty my acceptance for another dog.  At least some schools give preference to their current graduates.  The Guide Dog Foundation should be ashamed of themselves but, they are far too busy spending all their time and money on America's VetDogs.  I know some of you will get mad at me for saying that but it is the God's honest truth that I lived through with Tara,  Oh, I did not mention that the dog before that, Sunny, a female golden,  was sent home with a slipped disc at the end of her spine at the base of her tail.  The school tried to blame it on me but the neurosurgeon who operated on her three months after I got her home said he could see from the amount of scar tissue that the injury had occurred many months to a year before she was given to me.  He said he often sees injuries like that when young puppies fall or jump injuring their still growing spines.  I just thank God for Pilot Dogs for doing such thorough screening and excellent training.  When I brought Eva home at 14 months old  7 years ago I knew I was going home with a well trained, well behaved and perfectly healthy guide dog.  

Sandra and Eva    

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sharon S via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 12:43 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sharon S <koala at areujoking.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] doggy repo

Hi Sandra, that sounds really bad how you were treated. When getting my current dog I was told he has problems with drooling but there is an operation he can have if it gets too much for me. If I do decide to go ahead with the surgery then the school will pay for it but they also will pick which vet does it.

I thought all schools checked for hip dysplasia at twelve months before going into guiding training. However, your not the first person I have heard of who had a dog with the issue.

Bye for now.
>From Shaz.
Canberra, Australia.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, 9 March 2021 4:09 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sandra Johnson <sljohnson25 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] doggy repo

Tracy:

I like that idea.  If a neutral party is the mediator then it might be fair.  When I began to apply to schools when my last dog needed to retire at a still young age of 7 due to hip dysplasia and cataracts GDF denied my application without giving me a reason.  Then I appealed to the board but they still denied the application even though Tara's medical issues were their fault for putting out a dog with bad hips and hereditary cataracts in the first place.  They were also concerned about my medical issues of arthritis and multiple sclerosis as to whether I could be successful with a dog.  Well of course I can I had been working Tara for years without any problems other than her medical issues.  I had also been a guide dog user for almost 40 years at that time so obviously despite my medical concerns I was perfectly capable of working a guide dog.  The lady from the GDF board told me they only wanted students they knew would be successful, the cream of the crop as she put it.  I was not given the chance to provide any documentation about Tara's issues or my own abilities.  The appeal process should have been heard by an impartial panel not the CEO and board.  They did not have an open conference with me on a conference call, they just made the decision among themselves.  I personally think it was their way of getting revenge because I had been so outspoken on email lists about Tara and the fact they had sent her home knowing she had hip dysplasia.  They did not know of her eye condition because they do not do eye exams on dogs before putting them out as guides.  If they had, they would have discovered the cysts in the back of Tara's eyes that would lead to cataracts as she got older.  Their vet had said if she rejected every dog with a defect they would not have any dogs in the program.  So I ask, who was at fault, me or GDF?  Tara officially retired 8 years ago and I am still paying off the credit card which maxed out at $6,000 for her vet bills and meds.  You would think if a school puts out dogs with medical problems they would at least pay the vet bills for a person on a low fixed income.  I think most guide dog grads are afraid of speaking out because they will be treated like I was.  We all know if we say or write things the schools do not like, they will get back at us somehow.  An impartial neutral investigation and mediation  process would help a lot to make it a fair process.  

Sandra

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 8:48 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] doggy repo

As Cindy says, there are members who think it's fine for the schools to retain ownership.  So it might be more productive to work on getting some kind of due process, so that a neutral party can hear both sides and mediate, rather than a school just swooping in and taking a dog with no recourse for the handler.  Can we all agree on that?  Otherwise, the thing seems ripe for intimidation and bullying.  Handlers will keep their heads down and not make waves, for fear they would get on someone's bad guy list.

Ownership is part of why I switched to The Seeing Eye.  And, before I switched, I noticed how TSE graduates were willing to speak out and challenge their school when they thought they were making poor choices.  They expected to be treated as equal participants in the school's success.  It made a strong impression on me.
Tracy

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2021 10:35 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] doggy repo

One issue we have, as I see it, is that the membership itself is not agreed on ownership. Many believe the schools have the right to maintain ownership of the dogs because after all, a lot of money goes into the training. I think that’s paternalistic; I think removing a dog because it is over weight is as well, but I might work with someone on nutrition. Everyone’s knowledge of dog nutrition isn’t equal. It is wrong and nothing short of bullying to remove a dog in the manner we have seen described.
As for anonymous complaints, someone called The Seeing Eye about me. They did not tell me who right off, but when it c

came up, they did. The thing that is so difficult is that this often ends up being a “he said” “she said” thing, but I think it is good for us to investigate.
Cindy
cindyray at gmail.com <mailto:cindyray at gmail.com>

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:02 PM, Jenine Stanley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> HI All,
> 
> Just a couple thoughts on this issue from a former guide dog school employee. 
> 
> First of all, this is, as noted, very inappropriate treatment of graduates, regardless the program. 
> 
> I have been one of the people charged with helping to investigate 
> claims of neglect and abuse. I had to set up with local authorities 
> two different instances of reclaiming dogs because of documented 
> abuse. We couldn’t just send someone out to grab the dog. We went 
> through the proper authorities. This is not easy. Most local animal 
> abuse codes don’t address the same standard of care expected of a 
> guide dog handler. Sadly, both incidents I mentioned above had 
> violated even the very loose local rules
> 
> That said, if we repossessed every dog that was over weight, first we’d have to agree on weight standards. One of our instructors at GDF, who is now retired, liked to see dogs on the very thin side and would berate graduates publicly if she felt their dogs were not at an appropriate weight, regardless of the body shape of the dog or any other factors. She and the GDF vets did not agree on weight and it got very ugly at times. 
> 
> It never got to the point of taking a dog. The position at the time was that if we had solid evidence that the handler was not making efforts to get the weight under control, we did not have to serve that person with another dog. 
> 
> I’d ask NAGDU to look carefully at the standards and contracts recommended by Assistance Dogs International and IGDF, the voluntary accrediting body for guide dog programs. The ADI rules are pretty strict and since GDF has a sister organization, America’s VetDogs, that falls under ADI accreditation, I’m quite familiar with the ADI rules. No ownership by handlers. Schools do need to have an appeal process and stick to it but dogs can be reclaimed for weight issues. 
> 
> I’ve made it known, and will continue to do so, that I’m not a fan of ADI’s administration. It’s not something you want to say too loudly when working for a guide dog school, but hey, I’m not doing that anymore so you have been warned. That said, there are some good, respectful and truly enlightened people within ADI. I met very few of them. 
> 
> Jenine, still waiting for her next dog
> 
>> On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:45 PM, Marion Gwizdala, via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Richard,
>> 
>> 	As I mentioned in another post, the Guide Dog Foundation transfers 
>> ownership upon completion of training. They will not repossess a dog 
>> unilaterally; they will contact the local animal services and have 
>> them investigate it. In fact, GDF will not take anonymous complaints.
>> If a complainant refuses to divulge their contact information, they 
>> wil refuse to take the complaint. This is how it should be with all 
>> guide dog training programs. Anything less is paternalistic and undignified!
>> 
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>> 
>> 
>> Marion Gwizdala
>> (813) 626-2789
>> Blind411 at verizon.net
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Richard via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 2:29 PM
>> To: NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: richardfiorello716 at gmail.com
>> Subject: [NAGDU] doggy repo
>> 
>> Hi;
>> 
>> While I'm at my keyboard: I would have never thought that a school 
>> would basically repossess a guide dog unless there were cruelty complaints.
>> Unfortunately, someone locally had an incident with guide dog 
>> foundation when an instructor came out to "help" with an intersection 
>> that was a problem.  Fortunately she got the dog back from the school 
>> after they worked with it and to my surprise will be getting another guide from them soon.
>> 
>> Richard
>> 
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> 
> 
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