[NAGDU] audible traffic signals

[Star Gazer]

Yes, Michael, I was going to point out the crutch v. tool comparison, nobody ever tells a person who can see "you know, you rely on your eyes too much when you pour water" or "you need to just not use your glasses in your house, you live there after all". 

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Michael Hingson via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 7:49 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Michael Hingson <mike at michaelhingson.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] audible traffic signals

Actually to be fair, the same tool vs crutch applies to sighted as well as blind. It used to be, years ago and I now may be dating myself according to some, but we learned in school "look both ways before crossing streets". Not sure where anyone lost that concept, but all too many people simply depend on the lights. Lazy is as lazy does.


Best Regards,


Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Al Sten-Clanton via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 4:22 PM
To: Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Al Sten-Clanton <albert.e.sten_clanton at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] audible traffic signals

The point implied in the tool versus crutch language is indeed well-taken, but I note that a literal crutch is as much a tool as the cane or guide dog or Braille book.


Best!

Al


On 9/20/21 5:35 PM, Heather Bird via NAGDU wrote:
> So, I think that accessible pedestrian signals, fall into the category that most, but not all, assistive products, services, techniques, fall into, of either a tool or a crutch depending. That is, most things out there can be helpful in some situations, but could be detrimental in others, or could be relied upon too much, therefore, becoming a crutch. Depending on the context, I think that each thing will have a different threshold where something shifts from being a tool to a crutch or vice versa, and that threshold might be different for different people in different contexts. For instance, truncated domes, that is, those bumpy strips, at curves, in general, are not really necessary, but in areas where there is no slope, no curb, no change in the surface between the sidewalk and the road in terms of texture or color, they can be very helpful. However, if you encounter them too often, with your cane or your guide dog, you, and or your guide dog, can become lackadaisical, so used to encountering them, that you begin to miss curbs where there is no bumpy strip, or your dog begins to run curbs especially into quiet streets, where there are no truncated domes available. I’ll give a few examples, at either end of the spectrum. For instance, a white cane is almost always a tool, however, I have seen it become a crutch, for instance, I have met a few people who are afraid to walk around even a small familiar environment, like their own home, without using their cane, and that is just not healthy. On the other end, One of those ridiculous say when devices, that you put over the side of a cup, that vibrates when the prongs in counter liquid, is almost always a crutch. You should be able to use a whole variety of blindness skills  so  you know how far you’re filling a cup, for instance, touching the contents with a clean finger as they come up the side of the glass, hearing the change in the sound as you pour and the level in the glass increases, which raises the pitch of the pouring sound, etc. However, for someone who is deaf blind, with an extremely hot liquid, it might make sense to use this device, as touching liquid could burn your finger, and you would not be able to listen to the sound and the pitch change as you pour. I think if you’re a critical thinker, you can find just about any tool and think of an instance where it could become a crutch, or just about any crutch and think of an instance where it could legitimately be a necessary tool. In general, I would say that the location of an accessible pedestrian signal, is largely what determines whether it is a tool or a crutch. For instance, at a straightforward intersection, where you get strong parallel traffic which ever way you are crossing, where the angles makes sense, such as a standard + shape, then really, it should not be necessary at all. However, as other people have described, quiet cross streets intersecting with very busy streets you need to cross, provide little or no parallel traffic, and drivers are more likely to blow through the intersection if they are crossing over a quiet street  on a busy street. Also, if the signal is too loud, then it not only may not be necessary, but could become detrimental. There was a very loud bell, that would ring, near our local blindness agency, and it made crossing very unsafe, even a relatively loud car or bus, would be hard to hear over the ringing of the bell. I am a big fan of quiet, non-environmentally disturbing, that is, they make a chirp like a bird for instance, signals, that help provide a sound queue for the location of a mid block crossing, for instance at the top of a T intersection. Yes, using your cane or your guide dog, and that thing between your ears, you should be able to find a curb in a safe place to cross in most intersections. However, lining up correctly, and knowing where to look with your cane, or where to suggest to your dog, to execute a crossing from the top of the T intersection, can be extremely challenging, and having a sound cue for this, I feel, it’s a very appropriate use of a sound Q. I really like to challenge peoples thinking and ask them to step out of the box and join me for a moment, and walk around the box in a circle, and take a look at all the different facets. I get very frustrated when people get very “yes, no “or “black, white “or “right, wrong “I would be hard-pressed to come up with a single offering out there that could be labeled as either a crutch, 100% of the time, or a tool, 100% of the time I think a lot of the bad rap that some tools get, as crutches, comes from people who abuse them, overuse them, miss use them, or misunderstand them. And I think the over adoption of generally crutch like offerings as tools, often comes about when sighted people are making the decisions about what blind people need, and where and when, and if, and how they need these things to be used.
>
> One thing I have seen come up again and again, and I’m going to make a 
> generalization here for illustrative purposes, our arguments between 
> members of the NFB, and the ACB, or discussions among people not 
> involved in either organization, trying to distill the essence of the 
> differences in philosophy. One observation that is often made, is that 
> the NFB is against all sorts of adaptive things, and ACB supports all 
> sorts of adaptive things. I would say, as a gross generalization this 
> is somewhat helpful, but definitely incomplete. I would like to craft 
> and propose a more specific and targeted description, that in general, 
> the NFB tends to be more skeptical of new adaptive offerings, and to 
> express their concerns that such offerings may become a crutch over 
> time. Whereas the ACB, in general, tends to be more excited about and 
> encouraging of new adaptive offerings, not always thinking fully, and 
> critically, through The possible ramifications, and consequences, of a 
> broad adoption of some new adaptive product or service. In an ideal 
> world, all individuals, and organizations, would present complex yet 
> concise assessments of various technologies and Services, 
> acknowledging it’s possible benefits, while also enumerating it’s 
> possible harms. However, the next best thing, I would suggest, when 
> there is a discrepancy, is to fully listen, and read, in order to 
> understand both sides of the argument, recognizing that the truth is 
> likely to be somewhere in the middle. Also, I think it can be helpful 
> to talk about in theory, versus in practice. The trick is, of course, 
> getting people to stick with you once you’ve made your in theory 
> statement, and keep an open mind long enough to hear you’re in 
> practice statement. For instance, I have said before, and I will say 
> it again, that in theory, line people should not need to use para 
> transit, and should be perfectly capable of taking the public transit 
> system. However, stay with me here, in practice, public transit 
> services often are not fully accessible, drop off locations are on 
> safe scheduling websites are in accessible, signage is not available 
> in braille or with audio technology, apps are in accessible, and other 
> barriers exist, no matter how great your orientation and mobility 
> skills are. So, when people over simplify for instance, the NFB‘s 
> position on audible pedestrian signals, saying “the NFB hates audible 
> signals “I tell them, no, the NFB hates mass adoption of some thing 
> which in most cases is not necessary, and is concerned about people 
> becoming too reliant on this technology when it is set up in places 
> where it is not actually necessary. “
>
> So, to conclude with some more Guide Dog handling specific thoughts. One thing, is to see how your dog reacts to them, as some may start to want to leave the curb at the minute they  here the signal start to sound. In this case it is important to hold your dog back, and not let them cross right away, not let them cross until you give the command, and not give the command right away. Possibly, waiting a few cycles and making your dog be calm will help them to also be more observant. If you have a school that can assist you, and your dog has become much too trigger-happy to cross an intersection with an audible Signal, having a trainer drive a traffic check at an intersection where your dog is way too eager to leave the curb before you even given the command, can be a very concrete way to increase their vigilance, and remind them, the cars determine when we cross streets, not churps, beeps,  bells, or voices commanding them to “walk “When I notice, for instance, that Elsa is getting complacent, and we’re crossing a lot of intersections on a daily basis that have truncated domes, I go out of my way to visit another section of our neighborhood, where there are none of these on any of the crossings. if Elsa is starting to launch herself off the curb, the minute I say her name, then I drop her name from the forward command completely for a while. Or I give her commands at the curb like “Elsa, sit “or Elsa, touch “or Elsa, down “so that she does not automatically assume that her name means it is time to leave the curb. Or, if I notice she is consistently blowing the curb for the driveway that goes to my son school, I make sure to go early when many buses are going in and out of the driveway, and stand at the curb and just watch them go, and this seems to be much more effective than letting her run the curb, correcting her, reworking it,  rinse lather repeat. I think that no matter whhether  we’re talking about pedestrian signals, using treats and clickers, using braille, using  audio materials, insert tool or service of your choice, the three questions that need to be asked are: one. How is this tool best used at times when it is actually needed? Two. In what ways could this become a crutch, and what steps can be taken to prevent this from happening. And three. How does individual context or circumstance, shift the  tool/crutch balance, one way or the other. I’ll give one last example using Aira. I think Aira is one of those things that can be extremely helpful, but that can very easily become a habit or a crutch, in a detrimental fashion. Also, there are specific ways you can use the service, in order to make yourself more independent in the long run. For instance, spending a lot of Ira minutes to identify a bunch of packaged food that you’re having trouble identifying with Seeing AI is not very helpful. Using the Aira agent to help you figure out where the barcodes typically appear on certain packages, having them give you feedback on what angle of the box has less glare so that they can see it better, and likely the barcode scanner will have more success, having them identify items, and then taking the time before labeling them to shake them sniff them touch them, and find other ways to distinguish them without having to call into the Aira service, is a much better use of your time and the agents time. Having an Ira agent help you find the correct door while working your dog every single time you come to a particular business that has lots of entrances, is a huge waste of your time and the agents time. Having them help you find it once, quickly, and then using your target and treats and clicker to teach your dog to find this door with very high accuracy, is a great use of your and the agents time. So, to encourage critical thinking, I would urge everyone to pick one thing that you are pretty sure is a crutch, totally and completely, and try to think of one instance when it is a legitimate tool. One thing that you see as 100% awesome tool, and try to think of at least one instance where it could become a crutch. I think this might help to broaden, and deepin, all of our understanding of the options out there.
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