[NAGDU] DoT Airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of Rights

Sun Jul 17 00:55:47 UTC 2022

Hi Julie,

Though I can't say for sure what is causing the recent surge of travelers expressing their objections to sitting with a guide dog or service animal, my guess would be that they are now being given a choice. Before, they could express their objections if they were bold enough to do so, but ultimately, we had the same rights and traveling privileges as they did. If they didn't want to sit with a dog, it was up to them to either find themselves another seat or catch another flight.

Now, because of the new regulations, the stewards have to go up and down the aisle letting the passengers kno that there is a traveler with a guide dog and ask whether they are agreeable to sitting with them.

There is no other situation that I know of in which this practice would be "okay." What would happen if they started    policing parents traveling with an infant or toddler; allowing them onboard only if there were no objections.

It is very sad indeed.

Diane Graves

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2022 8:27 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] DoT Airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of Rights

Hi all,

Do we know what has changed in the last several years? I used to fly with my dog all the time between 2015 and 2018, and I never dealt with a situation where someone didn't want to sit next to me and my guide dog. I never sat in the bulkhead and always fit him under the seat in front of me. But he's a dog and a large one at that, so occasionally his paw or his head wouldn't be perfectly in my foot space. No one ever minded, even on a Fronteer flight where we had to switch with someone so I could sit in the middle (the only place a dog fits on those flights.) Lately I've heard so many stories of blind passengers with guide dogs being reseated or of other passengers not wanting to sit next to them.

It is my humble opinion that the new regulations/service animal forms have done zero good for us guide dog handlers, but I can't draw a link between those and the weird recent crop of stories I've heard about people not wanting to sit near guide dogs. Maybe it's just a fluke?

And no, none of this is stopping me from wanting another dog. :)

Julie

On 7/15/22, Star Gazer via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Yes, and I read this as not so much what handlers think/know but what 
> the flight attendants think/show which probably isn't much. The ones 
> I've dealt with seem like glorified mothers, nothing wrong, but it 
> comes down to who they like much of the time. Not sure I'd want to 
> have my plans dorked up because one didn't like me/my dog.. which no, 
> I don't have, and as I've said before, nonsense like this is one 
> reason why.. the issues that happen with a dog like what we're 
> discussing and what has been discussed with rideshares just don't seem to happen with a cane.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via 
> NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2022 12:17 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] DoT Airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of 
> Rights
>
> Hi Al S.
> All you need to know is that dogs have died in the cargo hold.  Not a 
> chance I am at all willing to take.
> When Morris Frank was working to get guide dogs allowed on trains, way 
> back when, and they said his dog would have to go in the baggage car, 
> Morris went with her.  Suppose they said my dog had to go in the cargo 
> hold, and I said I had to go with him? Good enough for him, good enough for me.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Al 
> Sten-Clanton via NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2022 10:46 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: albert.e.sten_clanton at verizon.net
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] DoT Airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of 
> Rights
>
> Greetings!
>
> If I had to fly and needed very much to take the flight I was set up 
> to take, what should I know about the hazards, if any, of having my 
> dog in the cargo hold?  Thanks for any relevant information.
>
> Al
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Al Elia via NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2022 10:30 AM
> To: Heather Bird <heather.l.bird at gmail.com>
> Cc: Al Elia <al.elia at aol.com>; NAGDU Mailing List, the National 
> Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] DoT Airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of 
> Rights
>
> Heather – you are correct, but the devil is in the details, as 
> outlined in
> 14 C.F.R. § 382.77 (relevant excertps below). As you will see in 
> reviewing it, it a service animal does not fit in the passenger’s 
> footspace without encroaching on the footspace of another passenger, 
> the airline is not required to re-seat anyone other than the person 
> using the service animal unless it is to move someone into a bulkhead 
> seat or other seat reserved for passengers with disabilities, so long 
> as such bulkhead seats are in the same class of service. So, if a 
> guide dog is too big to fit under the seat or within a blind 
> passenger’s footspace (which is subjective given that there are no 
> lines marking the footspace for each passenger, then the blind person 
> must be moved. If there are no bulkhead or other seats in the same 
> class of service (such as when flying regular coach on Alaska Air), 
> and the flight is full so that there are no seats where the guide dog 
> would not encroach on another passenger’s footspace (such as a seat 
> with an empty seat next to it), then the airline may require the blind passenger to either take a later non -full flight or else have their guide dog travel in the cargo hold.
>
> A Passenger who does not want to sit next to a person with a guide dog 
> can thus claim not that they are offended by the presence of a guide 
> dog, but that the guide dog is encroaching on their footspace. Proving 
> the negative would be difficult or impossible for the blind passenger, 
> especially if the airline staff is solicitous of the other passenger. 
> Furthermore, once it has been determined, rightly or wrongly, that a 
> guide dog encroaches on the footspace of other passengers on a full 
> flight, the best that can be hoped for is that the airline asks other 
> passengers to be reseated, and that some other passenger states that 
> they don’t mind such encroachment. Basically we travel at the 
> suffrance and charity of the airline, its staff, and other passengers.
>
> I recognize that these circumstances may not occur frequently, and 
> that we have yet to hear about such an occurrence. However, the 
> regulations clearly permit it, and we must fight against such an allowance.
>
> 14 C.F.R. § 382.77 May carriers restrict the location and placement of 
> service animals on aircraft?
>
> (a) You must permit a service animal to accompany a passenger with a 
> disability on the passenger's lap or in the passenger's foot space, 
> unless this location and placement would: ...
>
> (2) Encroach into another passenger's space.
>
> (b) Before refusing to transport a large service animal that cannot be 
> accommodated on the passenger's lap or in the passenger's foot space 
> without encroaching into another passenger's space, you must offer the 
> passenger the opportunity to move with the animal to another seat 
> location within the same class of service, if available on the 
> aircraft, where the animal can be accommodated. You are not required 
> to reseat other passengers to accommodate a service animal except as 
> required for designated priority seats in Subpart F.
>
> (c) If there are no alternatives available to enable the passenger to 
> travel with the service animal in the cabin of the scheduled flight, 
> you must offer the passenger the opportunity to transport the service 
> animal in the cargo hold free of charge or travel on a later flight to 
> the extent there is space available on a later flight.
> On 14 Jul 2022, at 16:26, Heather Bird wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I found this on the DoT's website.  I thought it would be a good read 
>> for everyone and it even has links to the relevant sections of the 
>> regulations.
>>
>> Of note, I found that (14 CFR): Sections 382.72 -382.80 seems to 
>> indicate that a Service Dog may NOT be removed from an aircraft just 
>> because someone "doesn't feel like sitting next to you".
>>
>> "You must allow a service animal to accompany a passenger with a 
>> disability. You must not deny transportation to a service animal 
>> based on the animal's breed or type or on the basis that its carriage 
>> may offend or annoy carrier personnel or persons traveling on the aircraft."
>>
>> Airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of Rights 
>> <https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/disabilitybillofrights?fb
>> c lid=IwAR0rUFGnprYCpLH5SbLNaHilARPBvXEyq5IsMkJlNPGa2rW7wrVYLO1Ofas>
>>
>> Heather
>
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--
Julie A. McGinnity
MM Vocal Performance, 2015; American University Washington College of Law, JD Candidate 2023

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