[NAGDU] Which Do Dogs Prefer - Treats or Praise?
rdgraves2007 at gmail.com
rdgraves2007 at gmail.com
Tue Apr 25 20:52:27 UTC 2023
I feel you Tracy. My girl is a big time scavenger. I have tried the gentle leader, but when she has that on, she is constantly trying to rub her face on me, people and other things trying to get it off. So, she is paying even less attention when I try to use gentle leader control.
I would love any suggestions for correcting this behavior.
Diane Graves
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2023 3:44 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: carcione at access.net
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Which Do Dogs Prefer - Treats or Praise?
It did say that one of the dogs was a lab/golden, and it loved being petted. That must be the golden side. :.)
It was a small study, but I thought it was interesting, for whatever it's worth.
I deeply object to Danielle saying "if you let the dog scavenge". I struggled for years with Krokus's scavenging. There was no casual "letting" about it. He was very good in class until we went into New York. He spotted something while we were walking down some marble stairs in Grand Central and grabbed it, and that was it. I suppose I could have tried to stop him at that second, but I felt like if I did I would have fallen down the stairs. I guess that would have taught him! I tried to stop his wicked ways, and so did a couple trainers, but it never worked.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2023 3:28 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Which Do Dogs Prefer - Treats or Praise?
I was also curious about the breeds of the dogs. I have only worked labradors, and as different as both my dogs were, they both went nuts if I tried to reward them with treats. So once we got home, I did not use treats with either because they knew the treats were there and couldn't focus. My second dog in particular loved being praised. He would do anything for ear scratches and some love. But dogs aren't all the same. I have to admit though that I like the dogs who work better with praise. Carrying around treats is a pain.
But I agree that this study seems to consider all breeds the same. I'm just not sure I really trust the conclusions if the study is unclear about how the dogs were raised, trained, etc. It seems like they all have different backgrounds, and that will affect the outcomes. Very interesting discussion though.
Julie
On 4/25/23, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Personally, I don't love the interpretations of articles like this. It
> typically ends up as a food vs. petting vs. praise vs. toy discussion.
> In reality, multiple different rewards can be used; it does not have
> to be a one or the other scenario.
>
> Also, it is so much more complicated than does a dog prefer food or
> praise. What breed is the dog? A Lab is much more likely to have a
> high food drive than a GSD? What is the dog's individual preference?
> Like humans, every dog is unique. Some dogs think food is nice, while
> other dogs think food is the best thing that ever happened. Some dogs
> enjoy making their human happy, while other dogs live to give their
> human whatever the human wants. Some dogs like playing with certain
> toys on occasion; other dogs absolutely live to play. What kind of
> relationship does the individual dog have with the individual person?
>
> This study is also assuming every dog is a blank slate, but we don't
> actually know the dog's history. We don't know if the dog has been
> rewarded for ignoring food in the past. We don't know how long each
> dog has been with their handler. We don't know if each individual dog
> actually likes the food being offered or not. We don't know if the dog
> was exposed to body handling as a puppy, which will influence their
> reaction to physical touch. We don't know if the dogs have previously
> been rewarded with food or toys for coming to their handler, which
> would mean they are anticipating a food/toy reward is possible rather
> than solely wanting attention from the handler.
>
> This is an interesting small study, but we need to be careful with
> conclusions.
>
> I also disagree that using food rewards creates scavenging. Letting a
> dog scavenge and a dog genetically predisposed to have a high food
> drive creates scavenging. If you never gave your dog a treat in it's
> life but you let it pick up food off the floor when working, the dog
> will scavenge. If you drop food rewards on the floor and let the dog
> pick them up, especially without giving them permission to do so in
> some way, the dog will likely scavenge. If you bring the food to the
> dog and let them take it out of your hand, there is no connection with
> picking up food on the ground. Also, a dog that doesn't really care
> about food will have a much easier time ignoring food and won't be
> excited about it should they scavenge successfully. A highly food
> motivated dog will be very tempted by food on the ground, and will be
> extremely motivated to try again if they successfully pick something
> up.
>
> Danielle
>
> On 4/25/23, Joy Relton via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hi, I am now working my seventh guide. I believe the proper question
>> is "what motivate that particular guide?" I have had dogs who didn't
>> care about treats, but, if you gave them a warm praise they simply
>> blossomed. I have had trainers work with dogs who weren't responding
>> to something I wanted them to do and they asked me "what motivates
>> him/her?" Having said that, I have found that you can over do treats.
>> The treat needs to be a motivate and a reward but should be tapered
>> off once you get the response you needed.
>> This is especially true if it becomes a distraction. I have had dogs
>> who grew to expect the treat and would negotiate to receive the treat
>> first, then, they'd show me what I wanted. I always give the praise
>> first, then the treat, and then begin to make the treats less
>> frequent.
>>
>> My first trainer used to say "it has to be a balance between
>> affection, correction and praise" I agree with that. I also agree
>> that praise is their pay check. Think about that, if you don't get
>> paid or rewarded in some way, how long will you be doing whatever it
>> is that you are doing?
>>
>> Extra, scratches, pats and hugs to all of your four-legged partners.
>>
>> Joy and Vicky
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2023 9:28 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Sherry Gomes <sherry.gomes at outlook.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Which Do Dogs Prefer - Treats or Praise?
>>
>> I disagree with the idea that food rewards make for scrounging dogs.
>> My most recent four dogs, including my current guide Shani, have all
>> been trained with food, and none of them have been scroungers. I got
>> my first dog in 1975, and for nearly thirty years, I was a never, not
>> ever give treats sort of handler. After all, nobody was doing food
>> rewards then. When I argued with my instructor, the first time they
>> started talking about using food, he told me that if I thought the
>> trainers had never used food while training dogs, I could think
>> again. I trusted him, as he'd trained two of my dogs before, so I
>> tried it, and I would never want to go back. I won't rave about all
>> the benefits I find with food rewards, but as to scrounging, I'll say
>> this. For twenty years now, I've been using food rewards, combined
>> with physical and verbal praise, and none of those dogs have
>> scrounged. I can take them anywhere, and have, grocery stores,
>> restaurants/coffee shops, my home, other people's homes, inside or outside parties, picnics, anything.
>> I've been to parties, even in this past year, at my sister's where my
>> dog is loose, people are walking or sitting around with food, even
>> kids, and my dog doesn't beg or scavenge. I had Christmas dinner
>> here, last year, and my house was full, and my dog did not scrounge.
>> I thought the same thing, that food rewards would lead to scavenging
>> behavior, but it just didn't turn out that way.
>>
>>
>> Sherry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jody ianuzzi via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2023 9:00 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Jody ianuzzi <thunderwalker321 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Which Do Dogs Prefer - Treats or Praise?
>>
>> Hello Tracy,
>>
>> I agree completely! Of course my dog is a German Shepherd and they
>> respond highly to accomplishing tasks and praise. My dog could care
>> less about treats and food
>>
>> I actually think that emphasizing treats and training has a far
>> negative affect and that the dog is always scrounging for food.
>>
>> JODY
>>
>> To Boldly Go 🖖🏻
>>
>>
>> thunderwalker321 at gmail.com
>>
>> "What's within you is stronger than what's in your way." NO BARRIERS
>> Erik Weihenmayer
>>
>>> On Apr 25, 2023, at 11:36 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I finally got around to reading this article. Very interesting.
>>> Kinda calls into question some schools big emphasis on treats. Also
>>> interesting that verbal praise didn't score much higher than
>>> nothing. Maybe it's the quality of the praise, squeaky-happy vs the
>>> more calm good boy.
>>> I do give my boy a pat when he's done something great. He got some
>>> pats yesterday, leading me carefully around recycle barrels in the
>>> middle of the sidewalk. Now I know petting is the best, maybe I'll
>>> give him more when we're out working.
>>> Thanks Jodi.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jody ianuzzi via
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2023 8:26 AM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jody ianuzzi <thunderwalker321 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Which Do Dogs Prefer - Treats or Praise?
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.barkandwhiskers.com/treats-or-praise/?ui=6e6bee1e2d761aa
>>> ca7a4627c47115e633f57c6fbfb8a9d6ce7dae81cba93e03a&sd=20221226&utm_so
>>> urce=petsnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1ReadMore&utm_campaign=2
>>> 0230210Z1
>>>
>>> Which Do Dogs Prefer — Treats or Praise?
>>> Ever wonder what can motivate and reward your pet the most? This
>>> study, which looked at the brains of 15 dogs as their owners either
>>> praised them or offered a food treat, sheds fascinating light on the
>>> question. How would your dog respond?
>>>
>>> Analysis by Dr. Karen Shaw Becker
>>> Feb 10, 2023
>>>
>>>
>>> STORY AT-A-GLANCE
>>>
>>> A 2016 study attempted to answer the question of whether dogs prefer
>>> treats over praise, or vice versa Emory University researchers used
>>> fMRI scanners to observe the neural activity of 15 dogs presented
>>> with the opportunity for praise from their owners, or tasty treats
>>> Most of the dogs
>>> (13 of 15) showed the same or more brain activity when they were
>>> praised; only two dogs showed a consistent preference for food An
>>> earlier study to determine whether dogs prefer petting to praise
>>> concluded that petting is the clear and consistent winner
>>>
>>> Advertisement
>>> Many dogs are so food-focused their humans are pretty sure they’d
>>> sell them out for a tasty treat. And it’s no wonder, since most dogs
>>> seem more motivated by food than anything else in the world. This
>>> food obsession is why training treats exist. It’s why dog trainers
>>> almost always advise using treats to help shape a pet’s behavior.
>>>
>>> So, if you’ve ever asked yourself, "Does little Buddy (or Belle)
>>> love me, or just the food I provide?" you’re certainly not alone.
>>> But there’s reason to take heart given the results of a small study
>>> that evaluated which thing dogs prefer more — food rewards, or praise from their human.
>>>
>>> Some Dogs Value Praise at Least as Highly as Food Treats
>>>
>>> For the study, a team of Emory University researchers used fMRI
>>> scanners to look at the brains of 15 dogs as their owners either
>>> praised them or offered a food treat.
>>>
>>> The dogs were first trained to associate three different objects
>>> with three different outcomes. A pink toy truck meant a food reward;
>>> a blue toy knight meant verbal praise from the dog’s owner; and a
>>> hairbrush meant no reward. The dogs completed 32 trials for each
>>> object while the fMRI machine recorded their brain activity.
>>>
>>> Unsurprisingly, all 15 dogs reacted more strongly to the truck and
>>> the toy knight than the hairbrush. Also:
>>>
>>> Nine of the 15 showed similar neural activity in response to both
>>> the truck and the toy knight, indicating they found both treats and
>>> praise equally motivating Four dogs showed an especially strong
>>> reaction to the blue toy knight, suggesting they were apt to be more
>>> motivated by praise than food The remaining 2 dogs showed a
>>> consistently stronger reaction to the pink toy truck, indicating a
>>> preference for treats over praise
>>> Result: For most of the dogs (13 of the 15), the areas of the brain
>>> responsible for reward and decision-making showed the same or more
>>> activity when they were praised than when they received a treat.
>>>
>>> Most Dogs Seek Human Interaction for Its Own Sake
>>>
>>> In the second phase of the study, the dogs were put in a simple maze
>>> constructed with baby gates. There was a bowl of food at the end of
>>> one path in the maze, and their humans sat with their backs to them
>>> at the end of a second path. Most of the dogs took the path that led
>>> to their owners and received praise.
>>>
>>> The dogs who headed for the food bowl were the same ones who showed
>>> a preference for treats over praise during the fMRI scan. Emory
>>> neuroscientist and lead study author Gregory Berns summed it up this way:
>>>
>>> "We are trying to understand the basis of the dog-human bond and
>>> whether it’s mainly about food, or about the relationship itself.
>>> Out of the 13 dogs that completed the study, we found that most of
>>> them either preferred praise from their owners over food, or they
>>> appeared to like both equally.
>>> Only two of the dogs were real chowhounds, showing a strong
>>> preference for the food."
>>> One of the chowhounds was a shorthaired terrier mix named Ozzie.
>>> Ozzie chose food over his owner’s praise 100% of the time.
>>> (Fortunately, his owner understands that Ozzie’s a foodie and loves
>>> him anyway!)
>>>
>>> Conventional wisdom holds that dogs are primarily "Pavlovian machines"
>>> says Berns. In other words, their only motivation is food, and the
>>> humans in their lives are simply a means to an end. However, a more
>>> current view is that dogs also seek human contact for its own sake.
>>>
>>> "Dogs are individuals and their neurological profiles fit the
>>> behavioral choices they make," says Berns. "Most of the dogs
>>> alternated between food and owner, but the dogs with the strongest
>>> neural response to praise chose to go to their owners 80 to 90% of
>>> the time.
>>> It shows the importance of social reward and praise to dogs. It may
>>> be analogous to how we humans feel when someone praises us."
>>> The counterpoint to Ozzie was a Labrador-Golden Retriever mix named
>>> Kady, who was quite consistent in her preference for praise. This
>>> will make perfect sense if you’re familiar with these breeds, as
>>> they tend to be exceptionally motivated by a desire to please their humans.
>>>
>>> That’s why there are so many Labs and Goldens involved in therapy
>>> work, whereas dogs who aren’t highly motivated by praise may be
>>> better suited for work requiring a degree of independence, such as search and rescue.
>>>
>>> Earlier Study Measured the Value of Petting vs. Praise
>>>
>>> If you’re surprised most of the dogs in the Emory study seemed to
>>> value praise and treats more or less equally, you’ll probably be
>>> much less surprised at the results of an earlier study that proves
>>> your furry companion loves to be petted.
>>>
>>> Researchers from the University of Florida and the University of
>>> Arizona set out to determine whether dogs favor petting over verbal
>>> praise, as well as whether it mattered to the dogs who did the
>>> petting or praising — their owner or a stranger.
>>>
>>> The researchers worked with three groups of dogs — shelter dogs,
>>> family dogs tested with strangers, and family dogs tested with their humans.
>>> Each
>>> dog was brought into a room on leash to meet two assistants sitting
>>> in chairs.
>>>
>>> For the first two groups of dogs, both assistants were strangers,
>>> but for the third group, one assistant was a stranger and the other
>>> was the dog's owner. One of the two assistants greeted the dog with
>>> praise; the other greeting involved petting.
>>>
>>> The dog was then taken to a point in the room an equal distance from
>>> both assistants, the leash was removed, and the dog's voluntary
>>> interaction with each assistant was measured in 10-minute sessions.
>>>
>>> During each session, the assistants offered either praise only, or
>>> petting only for five minutes. Then they switched roles for the
>>> remaining five minutes. The dogs were measured according to the
>>> physical closeness and amount of time spent with each assistant.
>>>
>>> Petting Was the Hands-Down Winner
>>>
>>> The results of the experiment left no room for doubt — every single
>>> dog preferred petting to verbal praise. Not only did the dogs spend
>>> more time with the person doing the petting, but they did so even
>>> when it was their owner doing the praising, and a stranger doing the petting.
>>>
>>> And when the assistants switched places halfway through the session,
>>> the dogs continued to hang with the petting person. It's possible
>>> that one of the reasons dogs dig petting so much is because their
>>> heart rate and blood pressure are lowered by the experience.
>>>
>>> So, whether it's shelter dogs or family dogs, and whether they’re
>>> with their own humans or strangers, they choose petting over praise
>>> every time.
>>> They can't get enough of it. And while verbal praise temporarily
>>> interested the dogs, it didn't rank much higher than no interaction
>>> at all.
>>>
>>> According to the researchers, these results confirm that petting
>>> provides positive reinforcement for canine behavior. Being petted is
>>> likely a naturally occurring reinforcing stimulus for dogs, whereas
>>> praise alone isn't effective and may need to be paired with petting or food.
>>>
>>> Sources & References
>>>
>>> Social, Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience July 7, 2016
>>>
>>> Emory University, August 16, 2016
>>>
>>> Behavioural Processes, Vol. 110, January 2015, pp 47-59
>>>
>>> Conditional Reflex: A Pavlovian Journal of Research & Therapy, 1968, Vol.
>>> 3, Iss. 2, pp 69-80
>>>
>>> Journal of the Experimental Analysis of Behavior, May 2014, Vol.
>>> 101, Iss.
>>> 3, pp 385-405
>>>
>>> Today's Pet Video:
>>>
>>> Prairie Dogs Uniquely Equipped to Survive Desert Life
>>>
>>>
>>> Scientists believe prairie dogs have the most sophisticated vocal
>>> animal language ever decoded. They need it as a warning system,
>>> given all the predators they encounter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JODY
>>>
>>> To Boldly Go 🖖🏻
>>>
>>>
>>> thunderwalker321 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> "What's within you is stronger than what's in your way." NO
>>> BARRIERS Erik Weihenmayer
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--
Julie A. McGinnity
MM Vocal Performance, 2015; American University Washington College of Law, JD Candidate 2023
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