[NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar

Mon Jul 3 02:15:10 UTC 2023

I wasn't at the seminar, but have a couple of notions on traveling with dogs.

First, I share the view that it should be some level of crime to assert falsely that you're taking a service dog on a plane.  If you are using a service dog, you should not have to prove it, only use it in the way that service dogs are used according to the relevant legal definition.  (I've read it, maybe, but don't remember it.)

Second, I think I'm drawing on the wisdom of Jim Kutsch in saying that the important issue is that the dog behaves well, and whether or not it's a service dog should be secondary.  (If somebody knows better what Jim thinks, feel free to correct what I've said.) Neither we nor the airlines should expect perfection, but our job is to ensure that our dogs work well and don't cause needless trouble for others.  Indeed, when I did fly, I believe my dogs were mighty good, and so were almost all others I knew of.  

As for protests, sometimes they help a cause and sometimes not.  Protests or not, we need the right changes in the law or the regulations under it or both.  Given that we brought this up to pet Butigieg at our 2021 convention, I'd like to know, if possible, whether he or any of his workforce has done a single thing to show that he took our concerns at all to heart.

Best!
Al

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 8:30 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar

Hi all,
I don't fly or use rideshares mainly because I can't afford to use these forms of transport. Also for flying, if I could afford to, I don't have a way to print out forms. Maybe we need to have guide dog IDs from our schools. Then have the schools agree to "certify" owner-trainer's guides and issue them an ID under the auspices of a guide dog school. Have service dog school do the same for well-trained owner-trainers of real service dogs. The fakers can't get these IDs. Make it illegal for websites to sell service dog paraphernalia over the internet.

For protests, we need to work in coalition with POC community groups, groups for people with other disabilities. And, of course, allies from LGBTQ groups. How else did we finally get out of Vietnam? How did we help POC for voting rights and getting rid of Jim crow laws. Blind and disabled folks belong to every group of humans. We need to fight back! Time to play hard ball!

Lyn and Ari

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 10:49 AM Julie A. Orozco via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> I could not have said it better myself. You  wrote exactly what was on 
> my heart after last year's NAGDU meeting. It seems to me we could be 
> doing much more to hold Uber and the airlines accountable, spread 
> awareness of these issues, and rally our communities.
>
> It's hard because I understand the sentiment that we shouldn't 
> criticize our leaders unless we want to join them. I also think though 
> that a lot of it is our attitudes. If we see these airline forms as 
> acceptable and Uber denials as just a sad way of life, we won't do 
> anything to change them. I think it is a tragedy that people are 
> considering not getting dogs because of these issues. The schools and 
> our advocacy orgs should be taking these things seriously.
>
> I am more than willing to join with you and anyone else who wants to 
> plan protests and work for change. I deeply miss working on the NAGDU 
> board, but I also want to see us go in a direction that is more 
> focused on advocacy and demanding our rights as guide dog users be 
> respected.
>
>
>
> Julie
>
> On 7/2/23, Tina Thomas via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > Well, I must say, I am very very disappointed. I thought that the 
> > Nfb was non-partisan. All of a sudden people are pushing back 
> > because of change
> in
> > leader ship. What planet are we living on folks. Also, all of this 
> > did
> not
> > start just now it’s been an ongoing process that we allowed to 
> > happen
> being
> > that we want it Equity, which means everybody lumped into a group
> together.
> > So who’s fault is it really. I believe in diversity and inclusion
> however,
> > equity is an always will be a crutch. This one size fits all does 
> > not
> work.
> > Also, to not even see a resolution concerning this issue  Says a 
> > whole
> lot.
> > I mean, even the ACB did put forth a resolution concerning this 
> > issue
> with
> > the DOT forms.
> > Any spelling or grammatical errors are due to dictation being that I 
> > fell off of a 6 foot drop and damaged my hand.
> > Enjoy the convention folks.I
> >
> > Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> 
> > ________________________________
> > From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> on behalf of Cindy Ray via 
> > NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 10:06 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar
> >
> > Good morning to all. I sure understand the frustration, and I went
> through a
> > period where I wasn’t going to get a dog again because of all of this.
> It’s
> > true that 25 years ago none of this was going on because the most 
> > service dogswere guy dogs. And of course, the people using essays 
> > have jumped on
> our
> > backs to get what they want even though it’s not even legal. And and 
> > I
> think
> > we do need to educate more, I’m not so sure, but what a protest is 
> > not a
> bad
> > idea, but they require a lot of work. You have to get permits and so
> forth.
> > I think we could do it, and I really don’t doubt that at some point 
> > we
> will.
> > But all of these other things are true too. We do not want to run 
> > the
> risk
> > of losing any ground that we’ve gained, and a lot of work has truly 
> > been
> put
> > into this effort. The ride shares aren’t doing as much as we’d like, 
> > but
> it
> > was a class action settlement, not a suit,that  we had with Uber. I 
> > think they may still be in the courts, but somebody can correct me 
> > if that’s wrong. Lyft is bad news, and I don’t know, but what 
> > they’re going to continue to be for a long time.  I think you have 
> > to be realistic about Congress, because if you can’t win the case in 
> > Congress, then there’s no point spending the money to get people to 
> > Congress to do the work you
> need
> > to do. You have to look for other avenues. It’s all a balancing act, 
> > and
> I
> > think we need to continue doing everything we do, and I think we 
> > need to
> add
> > in more stuff. I know that Al has been at the national office a lot
> working
> > with national leaders.  I don’t think we should becriticizing NAGDU 
> > for
> not
> > doing anything.  One thing for sure, who are we riding to about it 
> > ourselves? Am I writing to anybody? Well, probably not as much as I
> should
> > be. I think we all have to pull together. We all have to look into 
> > these things, and I don’t think that the leadership and NAGDU was 
> > discounting
> the
> > possibility of doing a protest. I think that they would need to 
> > consider
> all
> > strategies first and then make the decision.you can’t just say oh 
> > yeah, let’s do a protest. I think we have to keep cool about it, try 
> > hard to be patient, and have faith in our organization. If we don’t, 
> > then there
> really
> > isn’t any way we’ll ever win.
> >
> > Cindy Lou Ray
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Jul 2, 2023, at 11:39 AM, Sherry Gomes via NAGDU 
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> I am seriously considering not getting another dog when Shani retires.
> I
> >> got my first guide at age 17 and I'm almost 66, and I can't believe 
> >> I'm considering a life without a guide dog. But we have seen our 
> >> rights steadily get swept away, bit by bit. As of now, unless there 
> >> was an emergency, or some chance of a lifetime to travel somewhere 
> >> I've always wanted to go, I won't fly because of this issue. I've 
> >> never taken a ride share because of the issues.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Charlene Ota 
> >> via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 9:34 AM
> >> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Charlene Ota <caota4 at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar
> >>
> >> I know fakers still get their documents on the internet or from 
> >> organizations that provide them documents based on some sort of
> so-called
> >> training that they can show.  Those fakers still travel on the 
> >> airlines, no problem.  The problems have not been solved at all 
> >> with the forms because the fakers still get their faker ids and 
> >> documents from services boldly advertising their services on the 
> >> internet.  I have a friend who has traveled and taken her fake 
> >> service dog wherever she wants to go
> and I
> >> have spoken rather vehemently with her about how hard we as guide 
> >> dog handlers have worked so hard and so long for the right to have 
> >> our dogs
> in
> >> public and then she comes along with her dog and lets people pet 
> >> and
> play
> >> with it, lets it sit on furniture and in chairs in restaurants, 
> >> etc. She claims she goes to some service dog accrediting place near by.
> >> Personally, I don't think we've even begun to really deal with the 
> >> issue and we've lots our rights as guide dog users as a result.
> >>
> >> At present, because of health reasons, I don't have a guide dog, 
> >> but it concerns me what sort of challenges I'll have to face if and 
> >> when I am able to get a dog again.
> >>
> >> We have become second class citezens yet again!
> >>
> >> I know we have resisted having some sort of identification, partly 
> >> to protect owner trained dogs, but sadly, maybe that might be part 
> >> of a solution so that we can push out the fakers!
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't mean to be offensive, just am concerned and frustrated at 
> >> what I see happening to the rights of guide dog handlers.
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes 
> >> via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 10:16 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Sherry Gomes <sherry.gomes at outlook.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar
> >>
> >> I feel exactly the way you do, Michael. Since when does the NFB not 
> >> protest when facing such blatant and long term discrimination. In 
> >> the world of civil rights, protest have won the day far more often 
> >> than
> giving
> >> in to policies that take away rights. And what the airlines expect
> service
> >> dog/guide dog handlers to do in order to fly is demanding that a
> subgroup
> >> of a minority group jump through hoops that no other person who 
> >> wants to fly has to jump through. Can't we do *something*? How 
> >> about get other service dog handler groups involved too? Or reach 
> >> across the aisle and work with other orgs with lots of guide dog 
> >> handlers. How can we just
> take
> >> it that we are expected to participate in processes that demean us 
> >> and take away our rights? I'm so frustrated.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Michael Forzano 
> >> via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 7:56 AM
> >> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> Cc: Michael Forzano <michaeldforzano at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: [NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar
> >>
> >> It was nice to see quite a bit of discussion about what are 
> >> arguably the biggest issues of discrimination facing guide dog 
> >> users today, rideshare and the airlines. Unfortunately, there was 
> >> not a whole lot in the way of even working towards solutions that truly eliminate these problems.
> What I
> >> heard is that the best hope of changing the airline situation is a 
> >> pilot program in the FAA reauthorization Act that would create 
> >> essentially TSA pre-check for guide dogs. This would make things 
> >> easier for frequent travelers, but what about folks who don't 
> >> travel often? What about folks who aren't good with technology? And 
> >> at the end of the day, it still leaves the door open for 
> >> discrimination at the airport. On rideshare, we are working with 
> >> Uber on a pilot program where riders can identify themselves as 
> >> service animal users before a ride and have reports automatically filed if they are denied.
> >> Considering some of the drivers I've encountered, I would not be
> surprised
> >> if drivers continue to deny us even if they're threatened by a 
> >> message
> in
> >> their app. And when they do, Uber has a terrible track record of
> handling
> >> reports and taking action, as we all know. Even during the 
> >> settlement period when Uber was required to deactivate drivers in 
> >> certain
> situations,
> >> they rarely did.
> >>
> >> It seems to me that the NAGDU board has taken the position that we 
> >> now live in a world where these discriminations are our reality. As 
> >> was pointed out by a NAGDU member, guide dog access was better 25 
> >> years ago and our rights are being rolled back. But there is no 
> >> realistic way to
> go
> >> back to "the good old days".  We are so afraid of losing more, that
> we're
> >> not willing to demand back the rights that the blind fought so hard for.
> >> While that's a perfectly valid position for someone to take at an 
> >> individual level, is that the position we want the NFB, the voice 
> >> of the nation's blind, to take?
> >>
> >> Protesting was brought up multiple times during the seminar. The
> response
> >> from our leaders was that they did not think it would be effective. 
> >> The fact is that we don't know if it will be unless we try. 
> >> Protesting has helped advance civil rights causes in the past, 
> >> including those of the blind. In my opinion, the NAGDU board should 
> >> not be worrying about
> members
> >> traveling across the country for a protest that turns out to be 
> >> ineffective. Advocacy takes work, and I'd like to think that people 
> >> signing up for a protest are well aware that it probably won't 
> >> yield immediate results. As was pointed out, we would not have the 
> >> ADA if disabled advocates hadn't crawled up the steps of the 
> >> capitol. The NFB
> has
> >> protested on a number of issues as well.
> >>
> >> Particularly when it comes to Uber, I think a protest is long overdue.
> >> We've sued them, settled with them, and tried to work with them for 
> >> almost
> >> 10 years. It is long past time to change our strategy, and yet 
> >> we're too afraid because of their PR resources.
> >>
> >> Another argument that I heard was that we would be unable to 
> >> advance legislation due to Republican control of Congress. My 
> >> question is, do other civil rights orgs put their advocacy on hold 
> >> when the party that most supports their cause isn't in power? The 
> >> split in Congress is quite narrow and I doart think it's that far 
> >> fetched that we could convince
> some
> >> Republicans on the importance of some of our legislation.
> >>
> >> I am curious if other members have similar sentiments, and thoughts 
> >> on what actions we can take. I have thought about bringing a 
> >> resolution to the convention to make these issues a top priority 
> >> for the NFB as a
> whole
> >> but I assume it's too late this year. Open to ideas, and happy to 
> >> help
> in
> >> any way I can. That said, doing this work as an individual doesn't 
> >> make
> a
> >> lot of sense, we need to be aligned as an organization in order to 
> >> make real progress.
> >>
> >> -Mike
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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>
> --
> Julie A. Orozco
> MM Vocal Performance, 2015; American University Washington College of 
> Law, JD Candidate 2023
>
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