[NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar

Sat Jul 8 16:21:30 UTC 2023

Hello,
I typically wait until the driver is 2 minutes away before texting them.
This way they dont have any excuse other then the dog.
I hope that helps!

Robert Stigile, Second Vice-President
National Federation of the Blind of California
President San Fernando Valley Chapter
818-381-9568
Kn6uvd

> On Jul 8, 2023, at 9:04 AM, Vivianna via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> In thinking about this, i have come up with an idea.
> So, let’s just say that i self-disclose and am just ordering up an uber. I think that, if the driver is notified immediately that they will be picking up a person with a service animal , this will give them an opportunity to weasel out of taking the ride. But, what if the driver was not notified about picking up someone with a service animal until they were 1 or 2 minutes away from the pickup spot? This way, if the driver does try and make some excuse, it will be quite apparent they are doing so in order to not take a person with a service dog.
> I really like this idea myself and hope that you do also. It will be completely obvious to uber that, the driver was actually on the way to pick up the ride and, then, after being notified, suddenly canceled.
> What do you folks think of this?
> 
> Vivianna
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 5, 2023, at 8:30 AM, Al Elia <al.elia at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Viviana (and Rebecca):
>> 
>> I respect your decision not to send text messages to drivers disclosing that you have a guide dog service animal. On the one hand, it is possible that a driver who would cancel upon receiving a message would not cancel upon arriving and seeing that you have a service animal. I do not know how likely that is. I have only once ever convinced a driver to transport me by arguing with them in-person over rideshare company policy and law, but perhaps it happens more frequently than I am aware.
>> 
>> On the other  hand, by messaging the driver about your guide dog service animal, you ensure that the rideshare company has a written record showing that the driver was informed that your dog was a service animal, not a pet. I understand from speaking with rideshare representatives that those messages are valuable evidence in their investigations. Absent that kind of evidence, drivers frequently receive a first-strike rather than a removal. This is because if the driver says you didn’t tell them it was a service animal, and you say you did, the investigators cannot determine that the driver definitely understood that they were denying a service animal. I know that is upsetting to us all, but that is also how a court would view such a dispute in the absence of other evidence besides the testimony of opposing parties.
>> 
>> In addition, a denial and reassignemnt earlier in the process should result in less delay in actually being transported. Say for example  I am matched with a driver that is 5 minutes away, and I immediately  send a message saying something like “I’m blind. Please find me. I’m wearing a blue hat and I have a black trained guide dog service animal.” IF the driver cancels I’ll be matched with a new driver and hoipefully only be delayed by a minute or so. If I wait until the driver arrives and they deny me, I’ll have to wait another five minutes for a new driver.
>> 
>> Again, this is a choice for you and others. There is no requirement under law, policy, or anything else that we need to disclose our use of a guide dog. However, disclosing through the app messaging feature establishes a written record of evidence inn our favor should we bbe denied. I know that sounds very lawyerish, but I am a lawyer, so I hope I can be forgiven.
>> 
>> As for the pilot, it is not yet available. I am working with Uber to ensure that I or someone from NFB is involved in the internal testing and development so that the final feature set matches  to the feature set that I described and that  Uber agreeed to. I will inform folkks as soon as I have any sharable details on when self-ID is available and how to use it.
>> 
>> I thank you for continuing to report your denials to the rideshare companies so that the drivers can be disciplined. I encourage you to file complaints with the DOJ as well. Hopefully once the self-ID system is in place, we will encounter fewer denials and suffer less frustration when we do.
>> 
>> Yours,
>> 
>> /Æ
>> 
>> 
>>> Wow! That’s terrible!
>>> I was thinking of doing the same thing that you did but, not any more!
>>> After listening to the meetting yesterday it’s my understanding that they are talking about a proposed pilot program with uber where we can self-disclose that we are guide dog users. And, that the pilot program is not in effect yet?
>>> Someone please correct me if i am wrong.
>>> In the meantime, i’ll continue to not disclose at all. I also do have the app called, blindfold video, on my phone and will start a video immediately if a driver starts to give me troubles once they show up.
>>> Please let us know when the pilot program is in effect and, i will give it a try then. Not sure how long i will continue to self-disclose though if i have the same problems as Rebecca did.
>>> 
>>> Vivianna
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 4, 2023, at 6:10 PM, rebecca.young1264 at outlook.com wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello, so I used to always put in the field where it says add note for driver that I had a guide dog. And I would also send a text. However, I stopped doing this when I started getting the refusals. So after the seminar, I elected to start doing exactly what you had said. on Monday, July 3 I was getting a ride home from someone’s house. And in my text, as well as my note to the driver, I wrote! I am traveling with my guide dog/service animal. I got a refusal right after he read the text.  Then later that same day, was going somewhere, and I did exactly the same thing. I got refused four times in a row before I finally got a ride to my destination. I had it in my note and my text every time. I did call all five times and report them. Actually, I reported the four in one call. I just thought you might find this interesting and that’s the only reason I put it here. I was going to tell this at the meeting last night, but I guess they weren’t taking zoom questions. And that is fine.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Email rebecca.young1264 at outlook.com
>>>> Becky and guide dog Karma
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 4, 2023, at 5:22 PM, Al Elia via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Viviana – I suggest you say that you have a trained guide dog service animal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yours,
>>>>> 
>>>>> /Æ
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 3 Jul 2023, at 10:08, Vivianna wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Al,
>>>>>> Thanks so much for all of your replies giving more information about the situations.
>>>>>> I was on zoom for the meeting on saturday and, i, also, was very disappointed with what was said.
>>>>>> I am wondering why you did not present all of this info then? I, and lots of others would have felt so much better about things then.
>>>>>> It really did sound as if nothing was being done and nothing could be done and that you, NAGDU just thought we should all shut up and take it.
>>>>>> Once again, thanks and, i certainly hope that all of this will be spelled out fully tonight.
>>>>>> Just because of what you have written here on this list i will choose to let uber drivers know that i am using a trained guide dog.
>>>>>> Is there a certain way that the message should be worded? Or, can i just say that i am a blind person using a trained guide dog?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Vivianna
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 2023, at 9:07 AM, Al Elia via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regarding ACAA paperwork concerns: I should have mentioned in my response to Michael Forzano that we need data from members and the guide-dog using public about folks who have decided not to fly, or not to get a new guide dog because of the ACAA paperwork and airlines attitudes and policies. We also need to know about what technology guide dog users do and do not have access to, including printers to print forms and the latest screenreading and Adobe technology to fill out accessible PDF forms. That [ACAA survey](https://bit.ly/nagdu-acaa-survey) will be linked from  the NAGDU home page very soon. The information from that survey will go into our petition for a new rulemaking and any other advocacy we do on the forms issue.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I also want to stress that we are coordinating with other organizations, including Blind Veterans of America and Guide Dog Users International, in our advocacy efforts. Please aid all of us by [completing the ACAA survey](https://bit.ly/nagdu-acaa-survey), regardless of your affiliation. Again, the survey link will go on the NAGDU homepage shortly. I encourage other organizations to post the survey to their websites as well.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you all very much for your help with our advocacy.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yours,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> /Æ
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2 Jul 2023, at 11:38, Sherry Gomes wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I am seriously considering not getting another dog when Shani retires. I got my first guide at age 17 and I'm almost 66, and I can't believe I'm considering a life without a guide dog. But we have seen our rights steadily get swept away, bit by bit. As of now, unless there was an emergency, or some chance of a lifetime to travel somewhere I've always wanted to go, I won't fly because of this issue. I've never taken a ride share because of the issues.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Charlene Ota via NAGDU
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 9:34 AM
>>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Charlene Ota <caota4 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I know fakers still get their documents on the internet or from organizations that provide them documents based on some sort of so-called training that they can show.  Those fakers still travel on the airlines, no problem.  The problems have not been solved at all with the forms because the fakers still get their faker ids and documents from services boldly advertising their services on the internet.  I have a friend who has traveled and taken her fake service dog wherever she wants to go and I have spoken rather vehemently with her about how hard we as guide dog handlers have worked so hard and so long for the right to have our dogs in public and then she comes along with her dog and lets people pet and play with it, lets it sit on furniture and in chairs in restaurants, etc. She claims she goes to some service dog accrediting place near by.  Personally, I don't think we've even begun to really deal with the issue and we've lots our rights as guide dog users as a result.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> At present, because of health reasons, I don't have a guide dog, but it concerns me what sort of challenges I'll have to face if and when I am able to get a dog again.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We have become second class citezens yet again!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I know we have resisted having some sort of identification, partly to protect owner trained dogs, but sadly, maybe that might be part of a solution so that we can push out the fakers!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be offensive, just am concerned and frustrated at what I see happening to the rights of guide dog handlers.
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes via NAGDU
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 10:16 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Sherry Gomes <sherry.gomes at outlook.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I feel exactly the way you do, Michael. Since when does the NFB not protest when facing such blatant and long term discrimination. In the world of civil rights, protest have won the day far more often than giving in to policies that take away rights. And what the airlines expect service dog/guide dog handlers to do in order to fly is demanding that a subgroup of a minority group jump through hoops that no other person who wants to fly has to jump through. Can't we do *something*? How about get other service dog handler groups involved too? Or reach across the aisle and work with other orgs with lots of guide dog handlers. How can we just take it that we are expected to participate in processes that demean us and take away our rights? I'm so frustrated.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Michael Forzano via NAGDU
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 7:56 AM
>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Cc: Michael Forzano <michaeldforzano at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] My Thoughts on the NAGDU Seminar
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It was nice to see quite a bit of discussion about what are arguably the biggest issues of discrimination facing guide dog users today, rideshare and the airlines. Unfortunately, there was not a whole lot in the way of even working towards solutions that truly eliminate these problems. What I heard is that the best hope of changing the airline situation is a pilot program in the FAA reauthorization Act that would create essentially TSA pre-check for guide dogs. This would make things easier for frequent travelers, but what about folks who don't travel often? What about folks who aren't good with technology? And at the end of the day, it still leaves the door open for discrimination at the airport. On rideshare, we are working with Uber on a pilot program where riders can identify themselves as service animal users before a ride and have reports automatically filed if they are denied.
>>>>>>>> Considering some of the drivers I've encountered, I would not be surprised if drivers continue to deny us even if they're threatened by a message in their app. And when they do, Uber has a terrible track record of handling reports and taking action, as we all know. Even during the settlement period when Uber was required to deactivate drivers in certain situations, they rarely did.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the NAGDU board has taken the position that we now live in a world where these discriminations are our reality. As was pointed out by a NAGDU member, guide dog access was better 25 years ago and our rights are being rolled back. But there is no realistic way to go back to "the good old days".  We are so afraid of losing more, that we're not willing to demand back the rights that the blind fought so hard for. While that's a perfectly valid position for someone to take at an individual level, is that the position we want the NFB, the voice of the nation's blind, to take?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Protesting was brought up multiple times during the seminar. The response from our leaders was that they did not think it would be effective. The fact is that we don't know if it will be unless we try. Protesting has helped advance civil rights causes in the past, including those of the blind. In my opinion, the NAGDU board should not be worrying about members traveling across the country for a protest that turns out to be ineffective. Advocacy takes work, and I'd like to think that people signing up for a protest are well aware that it probably won't yield immediate results. As was pointed out, we would not have the ADA if disabled advocates hadn't crawled up the steps of the capitol. The NFB has protested on a number of issues as well.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Particularly when it comes to Uber, I think a protest is long overdue.
>>>>>>>> We've sued them, settled with them, and tried to work with them for almost
>>>>>>>> 10 years. It is long past time to change our strategy, and yet we're too afraid because of their PR resources.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Another argument that I heard was that we would be unable to advance legislation due to Republican control of Congress. My question is, do other civil rights orgs put their advocacy on hold when the party that most supports their cause isn't in power? The split in Congress is quite narrow and I doart think it's that far fetched that we could convince some Republicans on the importance of some of our legislation.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I am curious if other members have similar sentiments, and thoughts on what actions we can take. I have thought about bringing a resolution to the convention to make these issues a top priority for the NFB as a whole but I assume it's too late this year. Open to ideas, and happy to help in any way I can. That said, doing this work as an individual doesn't make a lot of sense, we need to be aligned as an organization in order to make real progress.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -Mike
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
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>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>> 
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