[NAGDU] the follow command and using the cane

Cindy Ray cindyray at gmail.com
Thu Jun 6 12:21:47 UTC 2024 

To check for the left side of the road, I just placed the cane in front of the dog far enough that it didn’t impede him and found the side of the road, then withdrew it. I think I stayed straighter using the cane than my foot.

Cindy Lou Ray
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 6, 2024, at 6:41 AM, Al Sten-Clanton via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> Sometimes these days I use the follow command, sometimes I just end up in follow mode because it seems most efficient at the time and getting the person I'm following to walk behind my shoulder seems unlikely.  I think Sheldon prefers follow mode when we're with somebody, but I can redirect him when I need to--or a dog or food can do it instead.  I am leery of it nonetheless, because one time a guy was crossing a major street with me and I thought Sheldon was watching the guy more than the traffic.  (I may have been wrong, but of course there's no way to test that without very competent help as far as I know.)
> 
> I have a folding cane in my Seeing Eye backpack.  I take that along almost all the time, so I thereby have a cane, but my sole reason is in case something happens to Sheldon and I need to go into cane mode.  
> 
> I hardly ever do country work.  I just don't walk in places where I need it.  I should have tried to find some such places to keep that skill up.  
> 
> I never learned to do country work on the right, but always on the left.  It would have been helpful, so I hope to learn it if I get another dog--which I hope won't be for a while.  Anyway, how do you use the cane on the left side of a road with no sidewalk and not get it in the way of the dog?  As far as I can tell, my dogs treat canes as annoying obstacles.  I see this when my wife and I walk together.  How does that method work?
> 
> Thanks for any perspectives.
> 
> Al
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:32 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] the follow command
> 
> I had a dog once who started following somebody, a guy was dating, and got to a point where she wouldn’t go without him. I always used the follow command, but I was careful to use. No follow commands fairly often. I didn’t always carry a cane, but later in my last dog, I think I had one with me more often. I use the old method for country work, but I came to like the cane for Country Workk.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jun 5, 2024, at 5:13 PM, Joy via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Tracy et al,
>> 
>> I had a very sad experience involving follow. It really wasn't the command but I had to retire a dog who just didn't want to work anymore. He would follow my husband to hell and back but he got so that he wouldn't go anywhere without him. I do not normally follow my husband. We had several changes and stresses in our lives right after we got poor Major that meant it was more challenging to take walks and I'm sure that it all confused the poor dog. It broke my heart but I know that he is happier. As a result, I do not use "follow" often but there are times when it helps. Like when we are going through an airport with our luggage. I make sure that we don't follow often. Also, Vicky doesn't really get hung up on following. One funny situation is when we go grocery shopping. If I'm not careful and we are walking behind my husband, Vicky will take a turn and tour the pet food isle for a little shopping of her own. She will walk through the isle and stop and put her noise right on the treats that she likes. I am very careful to ensure that I travel to places on my own and met my husband there if possible.
>> 
>> I have found carrying my cane in my backpack helpful especially when we first moved into our development because there are doing a lot of construction. Country work has never been a problem for me but I do use the cane to quickly ensure that she is hugging the curve in the road of which we have many in Portland. Now that Vicky and I have negotiated more of the construction spaces in this area and use the cane less and less but my foot simply didn't pick up the tape across the side walk or the like in the same way that the cane does.
>> 
>> For me, and my current dog, and they are all different, I will often say "good girl, figure it out". If it's not safe she doesn't move and I then go down the list of other techniques for exploring or determining the current challenge.
>> 
>> Yours,
>> 
>> Joy and Vicky who just turned six and thinks that's she really more like three.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:16 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] signatures
>> 
>> Good morning.
>> For some reason some servers don’t indicate who sent the message. I asked if there was a way to fix it and was told there was none. I can see it if I reply because it shows up in the message. Therefore, please sign your messages.
>> Thanks.
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Jun 5, 2024, at 7:52 AM, Jenine Stanley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ll echo what Tracy said here. I trained at Tse in March/April of 2022 and food was only used to teach finding things or problem solving.
>>> 
>>> I also tried using the cane during country walks but like Tracy, I went back to the old way. Actually my instructor showed me a different way that works incredibly well for us. When you stop to check the curb, give the dog a command to turn left, or right if you’re working that side. Then move as if to check for a curb. This method has given me the best country working dog I've ever had.
>>> 
>>> Regarding follow, I think it was explained and we used it maybe once or twice but it was something we were warned about over-using.
>>> 
>>> What surprised me about going from a school where you only used the dog’s name in the recall command to Seeing eye was just how the dog’s name is used. I’m sure someone mentioned this to me at the beginning of class but it only hit home later. Use the dog’s name if you want to get its attention for a positive action. I’m sure someone else can word this better but do not use the name as a reprimand, or use the name followed by pfui or other correction.
>>> 
>>> Talk about old habits to break.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 5, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Elizabeth.
>>>> I trained with Igloo at TSE in January 2022.  I don't think there have been significant changes since then, so I'll answer.  
>>>> TSE teaches the use of the clicker with food rewards for those who want to do it.  They showed us how to use the clicker to teach the dog to find something, like my seat in the dining room.  At TSE, rewards are used to teach the behavior, and, when the dog has it, rewards are phased out.  No need to walk around with a bag of treats, unless you're teaching or reinforcing something new.
>>>> My instructor encouraged me to use a cane to check our location while we were doing country work--working in a place without a sidewalk.  However, I found the cane a bit awkward and preferred the old method of stopping occasionally and checking for the curb with my foot, and she was fine with that, too.
>>>> We did use Follow, I think, walking around a supermarket.  It's not emphasized, and I'm not sure it's formally trained, but the dogs can do it.  My last dog got rather addicted to Follow as he got older and was always looking around for someone else to do the hard work, so I see how it can be a problem and I'm being cautious about it, but Igloo doesn't show that inclination, and my first dog from TSE was very independent and would always go the way he thought best, no matter who was ahead of him.
>>>> 
>>>> I had 5 good dogs from GDB before switching to TSE, where I've gotten 3 dogs.  I've been very happy with the switch.
>>>> If you have more questions, I can try to answer.  carcione at access.net.
>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Rene via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 7:51 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Elizabeth Rene <rene0373 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Seeing Eye training techniques
>>>> 
>>>> Whoops, trying again because this went out too soon.
>>>> Dear recent TSE grads,
>>>> I know that someone doesn't"Graduate" from TSE, but I have some questions for those who have recently trained there.
>>>> I have applied for my ninth guide dog, and have been surprised by some changes in the training approach at my last school.
>>>> Does TSE teach handlers to use food rewards for bonding or guide work?
>>>> Does it teach one to use a white cane while guiding?
>>>> Does it teach the follow command or something like it, or has that command been discarded as unsafe?
>>>> I'd love to hear from you, as your answers may help me to decide which school to attend.
>>>> Thank you very much.
>>>> Elizabeth
>>>> 
>>>> Elizabeth M René
>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>> WSBA #10710
>>>> KCBA #21824
>>>> rene0373 at gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2024, at 4:36 AM, Elizabeth Rene <rene0373 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi. I have some questions for those recently trained at TSE.
>>>>> Elizabeth M René
>>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>>> WSBA #10710
>>>>> KCBA #21824
>>>>> rene0373 at gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
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>>> 
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