[NAGDU] Rideshare denials
Vanessa Lowery
val4dogs at gmail.com
Sat May 25 17:34:18 UTC 2024
Ironically, I sent a message to the Lis just a few moments ago not realizing that it pretty much echoes what Richard stated in his email. So I wholeheartedly agree with him. As a member of the American Council Of The Blind and Guide Dog Users, I do know that Guide Dog Users is in the midst of Doing similar things that are being attempted by nagdu. I also know that my school, The Seeing Eye, is also trying to work with rideshare organizations. I will say that the number of denials that I have had lately have dropped, but that could just be a stroke of luck. What concerns me, and has possibly been addressed during this thread is that some paratransit drivers are denying service dogs. This includes the paratransit drivers who are from Uber or LYFT which the paratransit program has added to their service. So even people using paratransit who are disabled and have to include in their applications that they use service dogs or Guide Dog if that is the case in their particular situation, are now starting to experience what LYFT and Uber passengers with Guide and Service dogs have been experiencing for years. It's absolutely insane? !
Vanessa and the zoo
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 25, 2024, at 10:06 AM, Richard via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Respectfully, we are beyond litigation and protest. Uber, Lyft, and other TNCs have shown us they have no intention to enforce driver compliance with the law. Rideshare companies are engaging in flagrant discrimination against dog guide handlers and those with other disabilities such as those who use folding wheelchairs. Even with the court ruling that sustains ADA Title III coverage of TNCs, it is doubtful this will change TNC behavior.
>
> Their representatives will continue to visit conventions, tell us they understand our concerns, tell us their personal experience with disability means they support us, and promise compliance. Despite these empty promises, circumstances get worse and worse.
>
> This has gone on too long. The NFB, guide dog schools, and other advocacy organizations must advocate for stronger federal regulation of Uber, Lyft, and other TNCs. This will take a concerted, unified effort among many leaders and organizations. Our community must consider these actions:
> 1. Encourage federal agencies to strengthen enforcement of current regulations, even without a change to regulations.
> 2. If item 1 is not successful, advocate that Title III regulations covering TNCs be altered and strengthened to foster better TNC compliance. If the federal government accommodated airlines with regulatory changes that made accessibility much more restrictive for service animal handlers, it is surely possible to change Title III regulations pertaining to Uber, Lyft, and other TNCs.
> 3. If items 1 and 2 are not successful, we must advocate for Congress to pass legislation that strengthens the ADA around TNC compliance. The ADA has been strengthened in at least one area and it could be again.
>
> Whatever advocacy path is taken, TNCs will fight hard. Their actions in states to remove TNCs from local control show how powerful and effective they are. This shows why the solution must be at the federal level. We must fight better and harder than the TNCs.
>
> It is clear Uber, Lyft and other TNCs are not and will not take action against drivers who don't honor the law. I've experienced denial after denial and the only action reported to me has been a warming to the driver from the TNC. The TNCs make these ineffective warnings even though they maintain drivers have been trained about their obligations. At that, the TNC often refuses to disclose their actions against drivers, citing privacy concerns. Uber, Lyft and other TNCs clearly believe they can get away with violating the law.
>
> Uber, Lyft, and other TNCs are not likely to enforce driver compliance. I have read they fear losing drivers if they truly enforce compliance. Please recall, these are the drivers who have resisted transporting people who use folding wheelchairs. If drivers are unwilling to step out of their vehicle to fold and stow a wheelchair for a passenger, they aren't likely to brush a few dog hairs from the floor of their vehicle.
>
> It's time for this discrimination to stop! Let's urge advocates and schools to band together to advocate for better enforcement, strengthened regulations, or even a strengthened law. Let's support NFB, other organizations, and schools.
>
> Enough!
>
> Richard Petty
> Richard.petty at earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 5:43 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: carcione at access.net
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Rideshare denials
>
> I agree. If there's another class action suit, I'll sign on. If there's a protest in my area, I'll show up and yell.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Leslie Hamric via NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 6:05 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Leslie Hamric <lhamric930 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Rideshare denials
>
> I agree. Because otherwise, it's just going to keep getting worse.
> Leslie Hamric
> Cello and Braille Music Teacher
>
>> On May 24, 2024, at 5:03 PM, Diane Graves via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think it is really time that we start playing "hard ball" with the rideshare companies. They send representatives to conventions, talk the talk and say that they hear our concerns, but their drivers are still getting away with these denials.
>>
>> I think we should have more than enough data for some legal action; some protest. No, I don't know how to make any of those things happen, but we've done it in the past for other issues and I think it is time to challenge them. Enough is enough.
>>
>>
>>
>> Robin (Diane) Graves
>> rdgraves2007 at gmail.com
>> 317-238-9262
>>
>> “TGIF: TODAY GOD IS FIRST.’—OS Hillman
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Leslie Hamric via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 5:45 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Leslie Hamric <lhamric930 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Rideshare denials
>>
>> Of course I listen to the presidential reports. I don't think I'm NFB bashing at all. I am simply going by what President Riccobono said it last year's convention to Uber when their representative came up to speak that we're tired of waiting. I realize these things take time. However, how much more data collection do we need to do to prove thatthe rideshare denials are getting worse? the rideshare denials are getting worse? Maybe we do need more updates. But the reality is that the NFB isn't perfect and sometimes it's OK to say that this or that is not working. So we lay it all out on the table and then we move forward. I think what's frustrating is that we all want to see quicker results. How do you make those happen? That's the big question. None of us knows.
>> Leslie Hamric
>> Cello and Braille Music Teacher
>>
>>>> On May 24, 2024, at 4:38 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I’m not sure this is a fair premise. ”What good is the NFB if they’re not doing something about it.” NFB is working on a lot of things. Have you all listened to the presidential reports and how long it takes to accomplish some of the things we work on. Some of it may come from false promises from the RideShares, and it is up to all of us to continue documenting, to send to the NFB, to report the problems. It’s rough I know. But we always get upset and say, “Why isn’t the NFB doing something?” Well, guess what? We are all in the NFB, or at least the majority. I think we need updates more often, I think we also need to make sure we are all following through as we have been asked to do for years now, and if we have ideas as to what can be done, I think we need to talk to the NAGDU Board about it. We don’t have some of the things happen that some of you have, but our incidents have increased as well. So what if we would start writing here about 1) What havev we as individuals done) and 2) What would we like to see done? When we do this, let’s have no NFB bashing, and let’s be thoughtful as we brainstorm this together.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>>> On May 24, 2024, at 4:08 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Every time I get a denial, my husband asks me what the, um, heck the NFB is doing about it, and what the heck good the NFB is if they can't help with something like this. I say we're working on it, but it's sounding pretty lame after a while.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 5:01 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Rideshare denials
>>>>
>>>> This is all really discouraging. I wish we heard more regularly updates on what is happening on the rideshare front. I know we are working onit, and maybe I’ve just missed it.
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>>> On May 24, 2024, at 3:27 PM, Buddy Brannan via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep. I just saw a post from a friend on Facebook, who was denied *three times* in a row. After the third time, he got a message from Uber suggesting that if he wanted to take his furry friend along, he should use Uber Pet. But…service dogs are allowed on regular rides. Uh … OK. Fourth time he got a ride.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV, WRVB670 - Erie, PA
>>>>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>>>> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 24, 2024, at 2:48 PM, Debbie Malone via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just an FYI. The service dog denials are getting worse. I had the
>>>>>> same scenario happen just a week later. I was also denied
>>>>>> directly when I wanted to go with my significant other to his appointment.
>>>>>> They said I couldn't go because I had a service dog. It is really
>>>>>> bad when the transit authority is perpetuating the problem and
>>>>>> actually denying access because of the service dog. Just saying...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Sent with Right Inbox
>>>>>> <https://www.rightinbox.com/?utm_source=signature>*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://inboxwhenready.org/?utm_campaign=signature&utm_medium=ema
>>>>>> i
>>>>>> l&
>>>>>> utm_source=signature>
>>>>>> I'm using Inbox When Ready
>>>>>> <https://inboxwhenready.org/?utm_campaign=signature&utm_medium=ema
>>>>>> i
>>>>>> l&
>>>>>> utm_source=signature>
>>>>>> to protect my focus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, May 5, 2024 at 8:50 AM Diane Graves via NAGDU
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hear you Debbie. It is an outrage to have to decide whether to
>>>>>>> take a dog to your time sensitive appointment or leave them home,
>>>>>>> because you don't know what the rideshare drivers are going to
>>>>>>> try to pull. It is even worse, to make this ongoing problem a
>>>>>>> consideration when deciding whether to train with a successor dog or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although the rideshare companies would claim otherwise, I simply
>>>>>>> don't believe that they have a strong zero tolerance policy for
>>>>>>> violations of the law when it comes to guide dogs/service animals.
>>>>>>> They would say that they are doing all they can, but I do not believe it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, I was recently enrolled at a university which had a
>>>>>>> very strict progressive policy against cheating and plagiarism.
>>>>>>> If you were caught once, you would receive an F on the
>>>>>>> assignment; twice, you failed the entire course; three times and
>>>>>>> you were expelled from the university. I don't think the rideshare companies have such a policy in place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When attempting to make travel arrangements with a family member
>>>>>>> or friend, I try to be considerate. If they don't want a dog in
>>>>>>> their vehicle, I can either honor that or choose not to ride with them.
>>>>>>> However, When a driver makes the decision to provide a public
>>>>>>> service and drive their personal vehicle for a rideshare company,
>>>>>>> they forfeit their right to make the call, and they should be
>>>>>>> required to comply with the law. We shouldn't be forced to deal with this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robin (Diane) Graves
>>>>>>> rdgraves2007 at gmail.com
>>>>>>> 317-238-9262
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “TGIF: TODAY GOD IS FIRST.’—OS Hillman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Debbie Malone
>>>>>>> via NAGDU
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2024 7:31 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users < nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Cc: Debbie Malone <dmalone510 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Rideshare denials
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do the same thing. I report to Uber, NFB, and our RTA (MBTA/the
>>>>>>> RIDE)since many of my rides are contracted through them. I am
>>>>>>> going out to the DOJ complaints in the next day or so. Any advice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am so outraged that even those contracted rides are denied. The
>>>>>>> other day the paratransit service didn't have enough vans to take
>>>>>>> me on my scheduled trip. The tried to get me an Uber but were
>>>>>>> refused by every driver. They were telling the drivers that I had
>>>>>>> a service dog and allowed each driver to deny the ride. They had
>>>>>>> to delay a regular van driver's lunch to take me to my
>>>>>>> appointment. I am so outraged that I am looking into a protest at the state house and/or media coverage. I am too through.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Sent with Right Inbox
>>>>>>> <https://www.rightinbox.com/?utm_source=signature>*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 4:14 PM Suzette May via NAGDU
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What Lyft told me is that if you message the driver that you
>>>>>>>> have a guide dog or the driver is close enough to see that you
>>>>>>>> have a guide dog and the ride is canceled at any point after
>>>>>>>> that, it is considered a service dog denial. So I report those.
>>>>>>>> I also screenshot my text message when it says the driver has
>>>>>>>> seen the message, along with the driver information screen as
>>>>>>>> soon as possible. I also report it on the NFB form and the DOJ
>>>>>>>> form every time. If I can, I start videoing when
>>>>>>> the driver is one minute away.
>>>>>>>> I'm averaging about 1 in 3 guide dog denials. I've had several
>>>>>>>> that were blatant, to my face denials. That was before I started videoing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Suzette May*
>>>>>>>> *PS139.13 at gmail.com <PS139.13 at gmail.com>*
>>>>>>>> *512-564-0152*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 12:34 PM Raul Gallegos - NAGDU via NAGDU
>>>>>>>> < nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello Vanessa. While there is no direct evidence that you have
>>>>>>>>> been denied, I personally would still report it as such,
>>>>>>>>> especially if you
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> voluntarily sent the driver a text that identifies you as a
>>>>>>>>> blind person traveling with a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>> I hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Raul Gallegos, President
>>>>>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>>> (346) 439-7444 • rgallegos at nagdu.org www.nfb.org •
>>>>>>>>> www.nagdu.org Subscribe to the NAGDU public calendar Facebook
>>>>>>>>> Group • Email list • Mastodon “You can live the life you want.
>>>>>>>>> Blindness is not what holds you back.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Vanessa
>>>>>>>>> Lowery via NAGDU
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2024 12:22 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users < nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Vanessa Lowery <val4dogs at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Rideshare denials
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have a question. To give an example, let's say that I have
>>>>>>>>> selected
>>>>>>>> Uber
>>>>>>>>> and have messaged the driver stating that I will be traveling
>>>>>>>>> with a service dog and will be placing a towel on the floor of
>>>>>>>>> the vehicle
>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>> the dog enters. You continue to wait as the countdown for the
>>>>>>>>> drivers arrival continues. The driver gets two or three minutes
>>>>>>>>> out, and then the next thing you know, You've been switched to
>>>>>>>>> another ride. But before
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> happens, you've gotten a text response back from the driver
>>>>>>>>> that just
>>>>>>>> says,
>>>>>>>>> "OK.". You assume that the OK means that the driver has no
>>>>>>>>> issues with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> presence of the service dog. But then, you are suddenly
>>>>>>>>> switched to
>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>> driver. Is that considered a denial? And if not, at a minimum,
>>>>>>>>> should we
>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>> to the tracking link that the NFB has and report that. And if
>>>>>>>>> so, what is it categorized to be? I have had that happen a few
>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>> lately.
>>>>>>>>> Vanessa and the zoo
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On May 2, 2024, at 7:21 AM, Debbie Malone via NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>> Is NFB still collecting data regarding Uber andLyft service
>>>>>>>>>> animal
>>>>>>>>> denials?
>>>>>>>>>> If so where do we report the incidents? Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> *Debbie Malone*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *National Federation of the Blind of Massachusetts*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Affiliate Second Vice President*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *At-Large Chapter President*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *National Federation of the Blind, National Writers Division
>>>>>>>>>> Vice
>>>>>>>>>> President* *InclusionEducation.com
>>>>>>>>>> <https://inclusioneducation.com/>*
>>>>>>>>>> Amazon Author Page <https://www.amazon.com/~/e/B07RVCRR5R>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent with Right Inbox
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.rightinbox.com/?utm_source=signature>*
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/val4dogs%40
>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>> ma
>>>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>>>> l.co
>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> ag
>>>>>>>>> du
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>>>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> *Debbie Malone*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *National Federation of the Blind of Massachusetts*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Affiliate Second Vice President*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *At-Large Chapter President*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *National Federation of the Blind, National Writers Division Vice
>>>>>>> President* *InclusionEducation.com
>>>>>>> <https://inclusioneducation.com/>*
>>>>>>> Amazon Author Page <https://www.amazon.com/~/e/B07RVCRR5R>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rdgraves2007%4
>>>>>>> 0
>>>>>>> gm
>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> NAGDU:
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>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>> ai
>>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> *Debbie Malone*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *National Federation of the Blind of Massachusetts*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Affiliate Second Vice President*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *At-Large Chapter President*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *National Federation of the Blind, National Writers Division Vice
>>>>>> President* *InclusionEducation.com
>>>>>> <https://inclusioneducation.com/>*
>>>>>> Amazon Author Page <https://www.amazon.com/~/e/B07RVCRR5R>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.
>>>>>> na
>>>>>> me
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> co
>>>>> m
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