<html><body><font face="Helvetica">I am with you, this is not discrimination , it is doing the right thing. This is a baby, I thought puppies should not go out until they are potty trained and have their shots all dun. <br><br>Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App<br><br><br>------ Original Message ------<br><br>From: Nicole Torcolini via nagdu<br>To: 'Valerie Gibson', 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'<br>Sent: September 8, 2014 at 7:50 PM<br>Subject: Re: [nagdu] discrimination for service pups in training./my littlerant<br><br>First, I would not necessarily call this discrimination. JMHO, you are kind<br>of pushing the limits on what is considered a dog in training if it has to<br>be that sheltered.<br>I have never trained a puppy, but there was a puppy raiser in the town in<br>which I grew up, so, even I did not get to experience all of it, I did get<br>to experience the different stages through which the pups in training went.<br>None of them went out and about before the were house broken. There was a<br>very brief time right after the puppy raiser got the puppy from the school<br>that people were allowed to hold and cuddle the puppy, but that did not last<br>very long.<br>I would not take a dog in training to a pet store, at least not for very<br>long. It is full of smells and distractions, so it is hard for the dog to<br>focus, especially at such a young age. Even with Lexia, I tend to leave her<br>home when I go to the pet store so that I don't have to be on top of her<br>every minute for smelling everything.<br>I second the be consistent part. There are certain things that Lexia is<br>allowed to do, but only when I say so, and not following the rules about<br>stopping when I say stop results in the activity stopping for a very long<br>time. I also agree about not using correction until the dog fully<br>understands. And, yes, dogs most certainly understand conditions. We had a<br>pet dog who was not allowed on the furniture at home. However, when we went<br>to a certain place for vacation, she was allowed on the furniture. She knew<br>and understood this, and would get on the furniture in the vacation place<br>without permission, but that was okay because she knew not to do it at home.<br>And, yes, do not tolerate anything, even if it is cute. You are working with<br>Goldens, not Border Collie mixes, so you should not have this problem, but,<br>with the pet dog that we had, if it was funny once and we laughed at it, the<br>dog was guaranteed to repeat it, and we had just created a very annoying<br>habit that was nearly impossible to get rid of.<br><br>Nicole and Lexia<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces@nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson<br>via nagdu<br>Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 4:15 PM<br>To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users<br>Subject: Re: [nagdu] discrimination for service pups in training./my<br>littlerant<br><br>Hi,<br><br>I've never worked with goldens, but from what i've seen from family members<br>who've had them, they are very trainable. so you should have no problem<br>there save for the typical puppy behavior.<br><br>What I would seriously encourage you to do is read up on puppy behavior and<br>your breed. I'm sure bookshare offers some books on caring for goldens, and<br>I'd recommend books on clicker training. <br><br>It's great you have a trainer coming, but a little extra homework on your<br>part couldn't hurt, and this way, you'll know what to expect as your pups<br>grow. <br><br>I highly doubt you'll be doing any guide work right now. What you're going<br>to focus on is socialization and basic puppy obedience. This isn't, as some<br>trainers would call it, specialized training, so it will be easy to find<br>books on obediance training. Given that there are so many training methods,<br>do some research to find a philosophy that you agree with. I won't say that<br>one philosophy is right or wrong. I'm more of a trainer who mantains a<br>balance between posative training and correction. but I know some trainers<br>who will never, ever, use correction. It's all a matter of what the trainer<br>and you believe.<br><br>Understand too that two different dogs may need to be trained two different<br>ways. <br>If it helps, you can think of your puppies as children in kindergarden. I<br>don't like humanizing dogs like this, but sometimes it helps to see where<br>puppise are in their learning. <br><br>One thing you also might want to do is use the training tools you're given<br>by your trainer as a way for your puppies to work. <br><br>For example, "sit" might be one of the first things you learn. When your<br>trainer has taught you to teach your dog to sit, have your puppies sit<br>before meals, or sit in order to receive affection. This way, you're<br>training them all through out the day, and they are constantly learning.<br>You're also telling your puppies that you're in charge of their food, their<br>leasure activities and any affection they will receive and they must work<br>for it. This is a language your puppies understand. In the dog world,<br>nothing is free. With your puppies seeing you as their provider for<br>everything, they will aim to please you. When you start serious training,<br>your puppies will know that there are things you expect of them, and there<br>are things they expect of you as well. They expect love, guidance and<br>protection in return for obediance.<br><br>One last thing I want to try to hammer home is that you need to be<br>consistant in everything. If it's not okay for puppy to get on the sofa,<br>don't allow it ever. If it's only okay for puppy to get on sofa when<br>invited, don't ever allow puppy to jump the furniture unless you've called<br>him/her. If this means you have to stop what you're doing to issue a<br>distraction, do so. I say "distraction" because I do not believe in<br>correctional methods until I'm 100% sure a puppy know a command.<br><br>Zion's not allowed in my room unless I invite him in. Dispite what some<br>people think, dogs do understand conditions. SOme people think that dogs<br>either think it's okay to jump on sofas or not, that you should teach them<br>one or the other, but if a dog understands that this sofa is mine, this room<br>is mine, this bed is mine, etc, he's less apt to try to take over. <br><br>Sometimes, I've had to stop what i'm doing and move Zion out of my room when<br>he opens my bedroom door and goes in without my permission. If it means<br>that i have to steer him away from my room 5 times in a row so he gets the<br>point, that's what I do. I don't think you'll have to worry about this<br>because i imagine your puppies are very young, and I highly advise you to<br>not let them have the run of your house, ntil they prove polite in the space<br>given to them now.<br><br>My point is be consistant in training. know what you expect from the, and<br>don't put up with anything less, no matter how cute it is at the time. <br><br>I know this sounds like you're being a hard a**, but dogs please those they<br>respect, and dogs, not only need, but want a leader who will offer them such<br>structure. <br><br>I'll give one example of something i'm working with Zion on right now. When<br>he's in his kennel, and he starts wining, and i know he doesn't have to go<br>out, or if he's in his kennel and I just got home and he's barking and<br>carrying on, he's ignored completely, almost to the point of shunned. I<br>don't talk to him. I make sure when I have to go near him, I don't look in<br>his direction. He gets nothing from me. <br>Some could argue, "but he's excited to see you", and that's true, but<br>howling and barking is not polite in my pack so it's not something i<br>tolerate. <br>When Zion is settles down or has given up on my attention, then I will let<br>him out. <br><br>Again, I doubt this is something you ned to worry about rightnow, but those<br>are just a few of my puppy tips.<br><br>Again, please please please please, and did I say, Please, read up on<br>goldens and doggie life stages. <br><br>Hope this helps, and again, I didn't want to make you feel like an idiot<br>earlier. I just come on a little strongwhen i feel passionately about<br>something. :)<br><br><br>On Sep 8, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Jessica Roberts <kittycatforever0214@gmail.com><br>wrote:<br><br>> Oh yeah, the training thing we have a lady who will come once a week <br>> for an hour to work with us 1 on 2 since we have 2 pups and will <br>> probably do a half hour with each.<br>> I htink we're going to start with walks at a outside mall near here, <br>> to our mailbox which is a nice walk away, up to the apartment office, <br>> to the daycare which is where my son goes, stuff like that. Eventually <br>> we'll build up to petco, church, and school.<br>> They seem like very adaptable puppies, and so I think it'll go well.<br>> I've never raised pups before, so forgive me if my first message came <br>> across as looking like an idiot.<br>> My thinking was merely to expose to them to as much as I could, but I <br>> see now it has to be done over time.<br>> So we'll do stuff with the trainer, go to my moms house, Derek's <br>> family, both of those houses have friendly dogs. And then once we've <br>> got all our shots, we'll go more places.<br>> Its hard to believe that these 12 pound fur balls will turn into 70 <br>> pound full grown golden retrievers, haha.<br>> My college has said they are fine with them coming on campus once they <br>> are house broken. I'm crate training and I've read that should happen <br>> around 16 weeks to 5 months, we're at 10 weeks now and they are doing <br>> really well so far.<br>> Jessica<br>> <br>> On 9/8/14, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu@nfbnet.org> wrote:<br>>> Hi<br>>> <br>>> I'm so glad you've made arrangements for your puppy. :)<br>>> <br>>> I think it really depends on the dog. As you work with the dog, <br>>> oyu'll know the dog better, and you'll know when the dog will be able <br>>> to be taken to class.<br>>> Take it one step at a time. Get the pup out and about when you have <br>>> fre time, and socialize the puppy to other friendly people and friendly<br>dogs.<br>>> Get the dog in basic obediance classes or work one on one with a <br>>> trainer if you don't know how to tain yourself. I like puppy classes <br>>> during the early stages because it does get the dogs used to strange <br>>> people, dogs, sights, smells, etc. I am opposed to group puppy <br>>> training classes where your puppy is made to work for an hour on <br>>> commands. To me, it's too long of a training session, and I'd prefer <br>>> to set my puppy up for success when first training him on <br>>> something...this isnt' easy to do when you've got a bunch of other<br>puppies around. But, to each his own.<br>>> <br>>> Get your puppy used to you, and most importantly, what you expect of <br>>> him/her. This is important.<br>>> <br>>> For Zion, I accomplished this by keeping him in his kennel when we <br>>> weren't training or playing. Gradually he got to spend more and more <br>>> time outside of the kennel, but as he gained more privledges inside <br>>> the home, he gained more structure outside of the home. Whereas once <br>>> people could pet him pretty much all of the time, now I decided when <br>>> he could be petted, and I used what obedience commands he'd learned as<br>stipulation for pets.<br>>> <br>>> Once he is well mannered around strangers, then you can start <br>>> thinking of more structured places to take him.<br>>> <br>>> Hope this helps. :)<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> On Sep 8, 2014, at 4:25 PM, Jessica Roberts <br>>> <kittycatforever0214@gmail.com><br>>> wrote:<br>>> <br>>>> I had actually looked into everything before we got the pups, but <br>>>> then this lady came out at me today. I had asked her before and it <br>>>> was okay.<br>>>> I've made arrangements for someoen to come let pups out the 2 days a <br>>>> week we're gone longer than they can hold there bladders for now.<br>>>> What age do you guys think is appropriate to take them to the <br>>>> college say, for an hour and a half class or so?<br>>>> Its not a showing off thing at all, but that I want to do this right <br>>>> and I want to expose the pups to as much as I can.<br>>>> Jessica<br>>>> <br>>>> On 9/8/14, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu@nfbnet.org> wrote:<br>>>>> Hi,<br>>>>> <br>>>>> I'm in agreement here. While I do believe there are some places <br>>>>> your puppy should go to get acustomed to the world, most of those <br>>>>> places are outside.<br>>>>> For example, I took Zion onto the train when he was around 10 weeks.<br>>>>> owever<br>>>>> we never went on the train if he showed any signs of fear. <br>>>>> Sometimes, we'd just sit near the train, and he would watch people <br>>>>> getting on and off of the train. We went into places like walmart <br>>>>> together as well when he was a young pup. However I always made <br>>>>> sure that the trips were short enough to provide a potty break <br>>>>> before and after. Because he was still very young, I was always <br>>>>> willing to just allow him to sleep in his kennel while i went out <br>>>>> to run around.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> If your dog is not potty trained, I'm assuming it's around 3 months.<br>>>>> It's<br>>>>> good that you're thinking about socialization, but taking the pup <br>>>>> to a school is too much. Zion goes to school with me now, and <br>>>>> there are times when he gets restless. That is due to the fact <br>>>>> that he's ten months old and still a puppy, but slowly, he's <br>>>>> getting better at calming down. Another thing you want to consider <br>>>>> is that if you take the dog to a college campus, everyone's going <br>>>>> to want to pet the dog. This is good for the puppy, but he might <br>>>>> come to associate the college campus with play and free pets. I <br>>>>> recommend taking him to campus on a day where you don't have class <br>>>>> and can stroll aroud. It's what I did when Zion was four months.<br>>>>> I don't mean to sound harsh, but it seems to me that you just want <br>>>>> to show off your new puppy. Him/her being a service dog in training <br>>>>> offers you the perk of being able to take it around to places.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> There's nothing wrong with wanting to do this, but there's a time <br>>>>> and place to do it right now. On a time where you don't <br>>>>> necessarily get free time is not one.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> Truly I understand your eagerness to show off your friend. There <br>>>>> were times I had to remind myself that Zion was still X months old <br>>>>> and wasn't ready for something. It didn't help that he was so big.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> My second pet peeve about this is: Why are you training a dog if <br>>>>> you don't have the time? Or, why not clear it with your disability <br>>>>> center before you got puppy, that way you'd know, okay, it may not <br>>>>> be able to come with me to class so I need to plan my class <br>>>>> schedule around it's schedule, or make arangements for it's care <br>>>>> while I am away?<br>>>>> <br>>>>> You don't need to answer these on list or even in an email to me. <br>>>>> Part of this is just my venting.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> I get that everyone has their own circumstances, but the dog didn't <br>>>>> ask to be placed in your life, especially if it's a puppy you're <br>>>>> owner training.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> okay, now this is just my venting, not to/about anyone in particular.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> This goes for pets too. If you can't take care of your dog, at any <br>>>>> time, for any reason, make arrangements for it's care, wether <br>>>>> that's for a dog walker to come by, taking it to a daycare, leaving <br>>>>> it with a friend, etc. If you can't do that, or can't afford it, <br>>>>> you don't need to be training a dog.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> If something comes up, after you've got the puppy, and it's nothing <br>>>>> that you could have prevented before you got the puppy, that's a <br>>>>> little different.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> As a dog trainer you need to understand life stages of dogs, what <br>>>>> hurtles you'll need to jump at what stage, and various ways to <br>>>>> overcome those hurtles. For example, if your dog is chewing <br>>>>> everything in sight and it's 5 months old, you should know that <br>>>>> it's teeth, and this shall last roughly until the dogs 7 months <br>>>>> old. If your dog, who once was an obedient puppy, suddenly decides <br>>>>> it's not going to listen to anything yo say, and it's a year old, <br>>>>> that'a adolescence and understand that you might have to start back <br>>>>> at square one, but that this too shall pass. You should understand <br>>>>> breed in that not all dogs train or work the same. What was your <br>>>>> dog originally bred for? How can you use this in your training? <br>>>>> Akitas were bred for hunting, so when we come across obstacles that <br>>>>> Zion must walk around, it's better for him and me, if i allow him <br>>>>> to find a way around it on his own.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> In order to train service dogs properly, in my oppinion, you need <br>>>>> to understand basic dog behavior. I'd even go so far as to say, in <br>>>>> order to work with a service dog, you need to understand dog <br>>>>> behavior, but I don't want to start a holy war over it lol<br>>>>> <br>>>>> I can't tell you the people i've run into who think that just <br>>>>> because their dog is a guide dog it shouldn't have the same bad <br>>>>> habbits a pet dog might have.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> Maybe i'm just preaching to the choir as it were, and I don't mean <br>>>>> to make it sound as if the owner/trainers on here just don't have <br>>>>> common sense, because I'm sure that those of you who've worked (not <br>>>>> just owned) but worked with many dogs know this.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> I just get baffled at people (and I don't just mean those on this <br>>>>> list) who want to train a dog for any ort of service work and know <br>>>>> hardly anything about your general dog behavior. It's like they <br>>>>> see service dog training and regular obedience training as <br>>>>> separate, and they're not. they all build on one another. Then <br>>>>> there's your typical person who wants to train a "service dog" just <br>>>>> so their pet can go into places with them.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> Okay, i'm done with my ranting.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> Understand that i'm not pointing anyone out here. I just want <br>>>>> those who are starting out on owner training to understand that <br>>>>> there's more to it, but i don't think anyone can really understand <br>>>>> that until they've worked with dogs.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> Zion is my first service dog that i've trained, but I've trained <br>>>>> other dogs.<br>>>>> In fact, by the end of next year I hope to have a certificate by <br>>>>> the certification counsel of professional dog trainers, which will <br>>>>> certify me in dog training.<br>>>>> <br>>>>> PS: sorry if I came across as a bit blunt or whatever. sugar <br>>>>> coating things has never been my strong point, so I can come across <br>>>>> as more bitchy than i intend. :)<br>>>>> <br>>>>> On Sep 8, 2014, at 1:59 PM, The Pawpower Pack via nagdu <br>>>>> <nagdu@nfbnet.org><br>>>>> wrote:<br>>>>> <br>>>>>> I'm not familiar with the Florida law, but if Florida gives <br>>>>>> trainers with pups the same rights and responsibilities as trained <br>>>>>> dogs, then the ADA says that handlers of service dogs can be asked <br>>>>>> to remove the dog if it is not toilet trained and or if it is <br>>>>>> causing a disturbance, like whining or barking.<br>>>>>> As a trainer, I do not take dogs into places inside until the dog <br>>>>>> has proven, over a period of weeks, that it is toilet trained. <br>>>>>> Also that it can be quiet for long periods of time. I do this by <br>>>>>> accessing many dog friendly outdoor spaces.<br>>>>>> I also do not think that a puppy is ready for a whole day at school.<br>>>>>> This<br>>>>>> is a very young dog, it's only job right now is to be a young dog <br>>>>>> and explore the world.<br>>>>>> I wish you the best.<br>>>>>> <br>>>>>> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:<br>>>>>> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil<br>>>>>> Pawpower4me@gmail.com<br>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone<br>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> On Sep 8, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Jessica Roberts via nagdu <br>>>>>>> <nagdu@nfbnet.org><br>>>>>>> wrote:<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> Hello,<br>>>>>>> I sent an email today to the director of the office for students <br>>>>>>> with disabilities for one of the campuses for which I'm attending <br>>>>>>> next week.<br>>>>>>> I obviously want to take my puppy with me because of the exposure <br>>>>>>> to things, and because its a long time to leave a puppy alone.<br>>>>>>> I got an email back saying that I could not bring the puppy until <br>>>>>>> its house broken, because they don't want it having accidents, <br>>>>>>> whining, or disrupting classes.<br>>>>>>> My plan was to have puppy in a wheeled carrier for a few weeks <br>>>>>>> anyway because of house breaking stuff, and also because puppy <br>>>>>>> has not had all her shots so she'd be safe, too.<br>>>>>>> She then informed me she'd let her boss contact the colleges <br>>>>>>> lawyer to get educated about service dogs in training.<br>>>>>>> Florida Statute 413.08 states that service dogs in training have <br>>>>>>> the same rights as fully trained guide dogs. Am I right to push <br>>>>>>> this or should I leave puppy home crated until they think its<br>appropriate?<br>>>>>>> I don't wanna do the second because of all the socialization <br>>>>>>> things that'd be missed.<br>>>>>>> The puppy is fine in a crate and I'm sure will be fine in the <br>>>>>>> carrier too, the plan was to put her in there with a puppy <br>>>>>>> nylabone, and to take her out for cuddle and potty time between<br>classes and such.<br>>>>>>> Thoughts, suggestions, help would be greatly appreciated.<br>>>>>>> Jessica<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list<br>>>>>>> nagdu@nfbnet.org<br>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<br>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info <br>>>>>>> for<br>>>>>>> nagdu:<br>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pawpower4me%40<br>>>>>>> gmail.com<br>>>>>> <br>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>>>> nagdu mailing list<br>>>>>> nagdu@nfbnet.org<br>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<br>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info <br>>>>>> for<br>>>>>> nagdu:<br>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40g<br>>>>>> mail.com<br>>>>> <br>>>>> <br>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>>> nagdu mailing list<br>>>>> nagdu@nfbnet.org<br>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<br>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info <br>>>>> for<br>>>>> nagdu:<br>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/kittycatforever0<br>>>>> 214%40gmail.com<br>>>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> nagdu mailing list<br>>> nagdu@nfbnet.org<br>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<br>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for<br>>> nagdu:<br>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/kittycatforever021<br>>> 4%40gmail.com<br>>> <br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>nagdu mailing list<br>nagdu@nfbnet.org<br>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<br>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:<br>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.co<br>m<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>nagdu mailing list<br>nagdu@nfbnet.org<br>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<br>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:<br>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/barbandzoe%40comcast.net<br></font></body></html>