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Since you bring up leaving the law to lawmakers, why is there no
repercussions for breaking the law? That is the real problem here
and why it keeps being repeated. The drivers are not being penalized
for breaking the law.<br>
<br>
If I steal a candy bar every day and all that happens is a slap to
my hand, then, what is the incentive to stop? If instead of a slap I
on the hand I had to sit in jail over night, then I would think
twice about doing it again.<br>
<br>
These drivers need to spend the night in jail. They need to have
their license revoked. As it stands, they cancel that ride and move
on with their life while the blind person is stuck figuring out how
to get to their destination, sometimes standing in the rain or snow,
sometimes already locked out of a building because they came out to
meet the car.<br>
<br>
Cindy<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/10/2025 9:47 AM, Al Elia via NAGDU
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:11AF8D7C-F1BA-4D38-891F-421DA82BAD4D@aol.com">
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<p dir="auto">JAnine \u2013 do you have any suggestions as to how a
private company is supposed to lawfully produce media that
addresses cultural biases that other cultures ahve against
people with disabilities? Keep in mind that our laws also
protect against discrimination based on national origin, so
companies would have to produce largely the same media in
all languages, and not target drivers based on their
background or language. Imagine how the community would
react to companies messaging drivers that while they may
have been brought up to believe that people with
disabilities must be protected from themselves and always
accompanied by a family member, the laws protect their right
to live independently, and that sometimes they do that by
using a helper animal called a service animal. Everyone
would pile on the company for that messaging: Disability
advocates and progressives would cry foul at the notion that
the company was paying even lip-service to regressive ideas
, while disability advocates and conservatives would berate
the companies for coddling beliefes that go against the law.</p>
<p dir="auto">For better or worse, we delegate lawmaking to
lawmakers. We then require people to comply with the law.
One of the first things we learned in law school was that
ignorance of the law is no excuse. That rule is one of the
reasons why laws and regulations must be publicly available,
so that no one can claim that they had no notice of a law
they are accused of breaking. The rideshare companies are
providing additional notice to drivers that they must not
only comply with the law generally, but that they must
specifically comply with the specific laws protecting our
right to travel with a service animal. They are doing that
in the languages that the drivers are most commonly using to
ensure that the drivers cannot claim a lack of notice. There
is no cultural issue I am aware of regarding obligations of
contracts or violations of tcontractual terms. If a driver
agreees to those terms, and then doesn\u2019t so comply, they
should swiftly be removed from the platforms, not be
educated based on cultural differences before or after the
fact.</p>
<p dir="auto">I suggest that the best way to address a
cultures bias against people with disabilities is to take a
hard stance against that bias. We don\u2019t attempt to address
other cultural biases with gentle education. We would not
attempt to educate a white contractor who refused to hire or
do business with non-white people by telling them that,
notwithstanding the beliefs they may have regarding the work
ethics or trustworthiness of non-white people, they can\u2019t
rfuse to hire or do business with them. In fact, if we did,
we would ourselves be guilty of perpetuating those
discriminatory beliefs. The same goes for cultural biases
against us as people with disabilities.</p>
<p dir="auto">That said, if you have ideas for how to address
cultural biases in a manner that does not discriminate based
on national origin and does not perpetuate discrimination
against us, I welcome discussion of those ideas.</p>
<p dir="auto">Yours,</p>
<p dir="auto">/Æ</p>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p dir="auto">On 9 Apr 2025, at 16:39, Jenine Stanley wrote:</p>
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That\u2019s great that the notification is in different
languages but that doesn\u2019t address people\u2019s culture. If
people with disabilities are never seen and have no agency
in their culture, how can we expect them to recognize the
phrase \u201cservice animal\u201d?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I\u2019ll say it again, not making excuses for denials.
Just trying to give some advocacy ideas because the
current scheme isn\u2019t working as well as we thought or it
should. </div>
<div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 9, 2025, at 4:18\u202fPM, Melissa Allman via
NAGDU <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nagdu@nfbnet.org"><nagdu@nfbnet.org></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<meta charset="UTF-8">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page:
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<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">Leslie thanks this
is interesting.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium;
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currentcolor; border-image: none; padding:
3pt 0in 0in;">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>NAGDU
<<a
href="mailto:nagdu-bounces@nfbnet.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration:
underline;" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nagdu-bounces@nfbnet.org</a>><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Leslie
Hamric via NAGDU<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday,
April 9, 2025 4:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:nagdu@nfbnet.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration:
underline;" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nagdu@nfbnet.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Leslie
Hamric <<a
href="mailto:lhamric930@comcast.net"
style="color: blue; text-decoration:
underline;" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lhamric930@comcast.net</a>>;<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:nagdu@nfbnet.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration:
underline;" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nagdu@nfbnet.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[NAGDU] Uber Service Animal Self ID
Program</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">According to
Brianna, the service animal notification has
been translated into the 10 most spoken
languages.</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Leslie
Hamric<br>
Cello and Braille Music Teacher<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in
12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,
sans-serif;">On Apr 9, 2025, at 12:33<span
style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">\u202f</span>PM,
Jenine Stanley via NAGDU <<a
href="mailto:nagdu@nfbnet.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration:
underline;" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nagdu@nfbnet.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">\ufeff</span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The
only thing I can add to this discussion is
a question about potential training for
drivers. Are we as \u201cservice animal\u201d groups
enlisting allies within the driver
community of various ethnic groups, who
speak various languages? Sometimes the
message comes over better from someone in
your peer group. </div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Not to
make excuses at all for denials but I
had one recently like yours, Julie, in
which the person had no idea what
service animal meant, what guide dog
meant, what Seeing eye Dog meant. I had
to tell him I was blind and this was my
helper dog before he understood. Then he
was fine and we had a lovely trip but
prior to that we were at a standstill. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">I\u2019m
wondering if we\u2019re assuming too much and
not factoring in our own cultural
sensitivity when it comes to the
training ride share companies provide. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Otherwise,
I\u2019m incredibly frustrated on your
behalf, Julie as I keep reading accounts
of denials like yours. </div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size:
12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size:
12pt; font-family: Aptos,
sans-serif;">On Apr 9, 2025, at
9:35<span style="font-family:
Arial, sans-serif;">\u202f</span>AM,
Melissa Allman via NAGDU <<a
href="mailto:nagdu@nfbnet.org"
style="color: blue;
text-decoration: underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nagdu@nfbnet.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size:
12pt; font-family: Aptos,
sans-serif;"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">Hi
Julie. I\u2019m so frustrated on
your behalf. The driver should
get a notification that says
\u201crider has a service animal.\u201d
If they hit cancel at that
point, the app reminds them
that it\u2019s against the law and
Uber\u2019s policy to deny access.
If they still hit cancel, then
it\u2019s supposed to trigger a
streamlined complaint process
available to you in the app or
through a link in your email.
If the drivers ignore the
pop-up and just arrive and see
you and then decide they don\u2019t
want to take you and cancel, I
would think that the pop-up in
your app about filing a
complaint should still pop up.
What was your experience? Were
you easily able to file
complaints either with the
link in your email or the
prompt in the app, or did you
have to dig around in the
menus like we normally had to
do and file a complaint that
way? This of course assumes
that people just have time to
monitor what they\u2019re getting
in the app and file complaints
somewhat contemporaneously,
but I still wanted to ask what
your experience was on that
front.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style:
solid none none; padding: 3pt
0in 0in; border-color:
currentcolor; border-image:
none;">
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Aptos,
sans-serif;"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;">NAGDU <<a
href="mailto:nagdu-bounces@nfbnet.org" style="color: blue;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nagdu-bounces@nfbnet.org</a>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Julie
A. Orozco via NAGDU<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
April 8, 2025 9:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'NAGDU
Mailing List, the National
Association of Guide Dog
Users' <<a
href="mailto:nagdu@nfbnet.org"
style="color: blue;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nagdu@nfbnet.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Julie
A. Orozco <<a
href="mailto:kaybaycar@gmail.com"
style="color: blue;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">kaybaycar@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[NAGDU]
Uber Service Animal Self
ID Program</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">Good
evening fellow guide dog
users,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">I
hope all of you are doing
well. I am *<b>finally</b>*
working my third guide dog, a
male chocolate lab from The
Seeing Eye, called Xavier.
He\u2019s a wonderful dog and a joy
to work.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">Of
course, working a dog brings
about the inevitable Uber
denials. I\u2019ve gotten three so
far, and we\u2019ve only been home
a couple of weeks. (Uber and
Lyft are really terrible in
the DC area.)</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">For
some reason, Sunday was just a
bad day for me and Uber. I
have self ID turned on, so
drivers should be notified
when they arrive that they are
picking up someone with a
service animal and that they
are required by law to allow
us in their car. At least,
that was my understanding. But
these drivers seem unable to
understand the self ID
notification. Either that, or
they are not being notified
properly.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">I had
three drivers on Sunday going
to and from a friend\u2019s house.
The first driver took me, only
when I pointed to my eyes and
told him I was blind and that
my dog was working.
(Sometimes, looking blind has
its advantages.) He did not
understand when I asked him if
the app told him I was
traveling with a service
animal.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">The
second driver, the one who was
set to take me home, refused
us access. He did not speak
English, but even when my
friend and I pulled out Google
translate, he would not budge.
He said no dogs in his car and
even canceled the ride. I am
not sure if he received the
notification, but he seemed
totally clueless about the
whole service animal thing. I
don\u2019t think he was faking it
either because if so, he
wouldn\u2019t have wanted to cancel
the ride himself.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">The
third driver didn\u2019t want to
take me at first either. I had
to explain to him what my dog
was for, and once I did, he
got it. I asked him if he
received the notification, and
he said yes but that he didn\u2019t
get a chance to read it. He
said he could just get passed
it without reading it.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">So,
my questions follow. Are
drivers being notified and
trained about their
requirements under law to take
service animal teams in their
language of choice? Second,
what does the notification
system look like? I imagined
something that would pop up
and force them to read before
proceeding with the trip. How
are so many of my drivers
seeming confused about me and
my guide dog? Is this still
happening to anyone else? Or
do I live in the land of Uber
access denials?</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">I was
hesitant about self ID, but I
am happy with it because it
doesn\u2019t alert the drivers
until they arrive. It\u2019s like
Uber telling them for me when
I\u2019m right there that the
driver has to follow the law
and take me with my service
animal. But it\u2019s not effective
if drivers can just ignore the
notifications.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">Apologies
for the long email, and thank
you for any perspective you
can provide.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;">Julie<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Aptos, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org">http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org</a>
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/slerythema%40gmail.com">http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/slerythema%40gmail.com</a>
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