[NFB-DB] Braille Access and inclusion

Sun Jul 16 18:29:28 UTC 2023

Hi Stuart.
One of the nice things about IP Relay is that you can save the transcript, and if you do not get to it for a few minutes after the call, it will still be there. I'd recommend using the website and a computer for this, as sometimes mobile connections are a bit less stable.
The other thing I've done in cases where I needed to use my voice is to call through Google Voice and speak. That doesn't work so well these days, as I'm sometimes not able to understand speech clearly enough to even know when it would be my turn. The hand raising tool of Zoom sometimes helps with this.
Hopefully whatever Hamelton is working on will work well with braille. When I tried their app awhile ago, it was quite challenging on my iPhone with braille. Having that fixed would be fantastic! Feel free to let me know how it goes, I'm always looking to compare notes with other people in a similar boat as I am. I think what will help with this kind of meeting will be if someone lays out communication rules and then the tricky part, whether people will follow them or not. Identification of speakers can also be a challenge, as I'm sure you know from captioning.

Take care,
Scott

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2023, at 13:34, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:

HI Scott, Stuart here.

Thanks! I have not used CART before. I will try to use IP Relay more
with a point of interaction on a conference call/meeting and see what
happens. I have not personally tried because it scared me as to how it
would be received by those in the meeting considering that pacing and
interruption are a big factor in how well spoken words are received in
the context of a meeting. When possible, I have always tried to speak
(for better or worse), even when my voice was not functioning as I'd
prefer.

Perhaps simply a case of putting one's foot in it and hoping for the best!

EOM

On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 12:03 PM Scott Davert via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello from vacation. Thus my email is not associated with HKNC...
> IP Relay is what I usually use in the case of Zoom meetings. Stuart seems to already have done this in the past with varrying degrees of success. the only other option, which is reliable, costs a lot of money. This would be using CART through with 1capapp plug in. It works best when sent to a web page. however, that requires you to pay a paptioner for the meeting, and rates start at like $60 an hour. The challenge with all of this though comes in when you wish to also participate. This becomes a very big challenge when using IP Relay. It can be done, but the relay operator must interrupt the meeting for you to add a comment. When I am able to get CART support, and need to participate, I often use 2 devices paired to the same braille display. One which displays CART, the other controls Zoom itself so that I can do things like raise my hand, mute and unmute my audio and so forth.
> 
> I hope this helps,
> Scott
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 16, 2023, at 12:35, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Rod, Stuart here.
> 
> OK, whatever the next Zoom public meeting will be, I'll get on myself and attempt to get through the IP Relay teleconference coaching the call assistant to not do the relay announcement or explanation and try to get a live transcript through them on my Mantis Q40 and see how that works out. I'll use my Captionmate at the same time on a second line and see how it compares to what I normally use then I'll send you the completed transcripts from both so you can see the differences in each. Usually you can have on Zoom meeting ID connected to audio and then a call-in ID connected by phone alone. Sometimes I have to do this in order to get one that works right, and usually I'd use Hamilton CapTel for that in recent events, but IP Relay is publicly available without any app whereas I know Hamilton CapTel (who did used to have a public version of their product back in 2018 before they stopped supporting it) is still currently in beta so they aren't technically public.
> 
> Thanks for your help raising this to Scott, Jonathan! I hope Scott may have some additional insights. (Did Scott leave this list after the debacle last month where he was questioning why NFB was scrapping accessibility for members who couldn't attend in person? I'm not sure how to see who is active on the list at any given time as I think the list of emails is somehow secret or private.)
> 
> EOM
> 
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 10:19 AM Jonathan Pringle via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello I am including Scott Davert, with the HKNC Tech Research and Innovation Center.  Scott is definitely my go to person with questions like this
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> Jonathan Pringle | Regional Representative for Region Eight
>> he/him/his
>> Helen Keller National Center
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> 
>> Tucson, AZ 85653
>> (m) 1-516-4171165
>> jpringle at helenkeller.org
>> helenkeller.org
>> 
>> <hknclogo_cedfcdbb-98bc-4727-8aac-59c2400ea528.png>
>> 
>> HKS is committed to making documents accessible and usable to participants, the HKS team and stakeholders.
>> We recognize that accessibility is fluid and users are diverse.
>> Therefore, even though the document may meet accessibility guidelines, there may be usability issues .
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>> 
>>> On Jul 15, 2023, at 2:31 PM, Rod and Ele Macdonald via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Some time ago a discussion took place on this list relating to braille access to remote meetings such as Zoom. Stuart suggested that by using CapTel and relay services a deaf-blind, braille-only individual could access such meetings. I said I would research this.
>>> 
>>> I wrote to CapTel but did not receive a response. I did, however, have extensive discussions with three T-Mobile employees - Keith Clark, Director of DeafBlind Services; Cady Machee, Director of Captioning Services; and Lisa Tom, Director of Relay Hawaii.
>>> 
>>> First, Keith Clark acknowledged that there were "problems" with braille access, and that they are "working on it."
>>> 
>>> The T-Mobile folks all felt that the way to go in this type of situation would be to:
>>> 
>>> 1. sign up in advance for captioning services, providing the relay with meeting information;
>>> 2. Sign in to the meeting and, once captioning starts, request a transcript, which can be downloaded or emailed.
>>> 
>>> This would not foster direct participation in the meeting, but at least one could have a transcript.
>>> 
>>> I'll get to that in a moment, but first: While researching this I came up with the following:
>>> 
>>> 1. A "good" braille reader reads at 1/3 - 1/2 the speed of a sighted reader of the same age - typically 70-100 words per minute for the braille reader and 200-300 for the print reader. Braille reading speeds of up to 400 words per minute have been achieved by some individuals who learned braille at a very young age.
>>> 
>>> 2. Voice communication is typically 150-250 words per minute, but is subject to wide fluctuations - up to 400 words per minute in spurts.
>>> 
>>> 3. Recorded braille reading speeds is typically for contracted, formatted braille on paper. "Computer braille" on a refreshable braille device is necessarily much slower.
>>> 
>>> Given these speeds, and further given existing capabilities of current braille devices, only the very fastest of fast braille readers has a hope of participating real-time in a Zoom meeting The "input stream" is just too fast.
>>> 
>>> However, it is possible to get a text/word/PDF transcript of the meeting by signing up for captioning, and then requesting a transcript. I have yet to actually do this but from discussions it seems straightforward: One has to sign up for the meeting; captioning has to be turned on by the host; the user has to sign in for captioning and also request a transcript and how the transcript is delivered (email, download, etc).
>>> 
>>> Now comes the fun part. Relay Hawaii Conference Captioning (RCC) is only available 8:00-5:00 (Hawaii time) Monday through Friday. That would be 2:00-5:00 Eastern time. I checked out a Jaws training webinar ... nope, that is at noon eastern Time - too early.
>>> 
>>> One of the restrictions: RCC is not available for individuals with speech disabilities. Not sure why.
>>> 
>>> I then tried to plan to attend the NLS Bard "Patron Engagement" meeting held this past week. I then encountered RCC's next restriction - RCC is not available for events hosted by Government employees as part of their work. (Reasonable accommodation? Contact relay representative.)
>>> 
>>> This means RCC is not available for legislative meetings such as our Deaf and Blind Task Force, and not available for meetings sponsored by the University of Hawaii. And if I were still on the State Rehabilitation Council and it went remote, I would not qualify there either.
>>> 
>>> I am not sure if it would be allowed for a meeting sponsored by a nonprofit-hosted event that is funded by a government agency.
>>> 
>>> OK, more than I had intended, but the bottom line is this: Access to remote meetings by a braille-only consumer is either not possible for extremely difficult.
>>> 
>>> Consider these two possibilities:
>>> 
>>> 1. I read that 50% of blind folks aged 65 and older have some degree of hearing loss, usually a progressive condition. If these folks lose the ability to use their hearing in meetings, then what?
>>> 
>>> 2. Folks with Usher syndrome have a degenerative vision loss. When they lose the ability to follow an interpreter visually, then what?
>>> 
>>> Look around you - do you see (figuratively) a lot of older blind folks with degenerative hearing, or a lot of Usher syndrome folks who can no longer see an interpreter ... do you see them advocating for change, for improvements? It seems to me that it is the younger, "I CAN DO!" folks who are comfortable speaking out. The ones who have to say "I have trouble doing" or "I can't do" are not often heard from - and they are the  ones with the greatest needs.
>>> 
>>> Can we do anything to improve this situation? Can we add this to the list of topics to be considered?
>>> 
>>> Rod
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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