[NFB-DB] Braille Access and Inclusion RE: NFB-DB Digest, Vol 153, Issue 11
guillcat at gmail.com
guillcat at gmail.com
Mon Jul 17 13:18:49 UTC 2023
Good morning DB Friends,
While we're busy organizing ourselves, I suggest that Stuart Salvador, Rod
McDonald, and Scott Davert (perhaps others not named) consider forming a
committee to continue studying this problem.What talent! What dedication
and commitment to working on a problem that would benefit so many of us!
You guys Rock!
Cathy
-----Original Message-----
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nfb-db-request at nfbnet.org
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2023 7:00 AM
To: nfb-db at nfbnet.org
Subject: NFB-DB Digest, Vol 153, Issue 11
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Braille Access and inclusion (Jonathan Pringle)
2. Re: Braille Access and inclusion (Stuart Salvador)
3. Re: Braille Access and inclusion (Scott Davert)
4. Re: Braille Access and inclusion (Stuart Salvador)
5. Re: Braille Access and inclusion (Scott Davert)
6. Re: I am asking for. Suggestions, and making shore that all
have my contact info? (Frank Skogsberg)
7. Re: I am asking for. Suggestions, and making shore that all
have my contact info? (Robert Stigile)
8. Re: Braille Access and inclusion (Rod and Ele Macdonald)
9. Re: Adding Hearing Enhancement to NFB App (Stuart Salvador)
10. Re: Adding Hearing Enhancement to NFB App
(rockyhart1221 at gmail.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2023 22:45:10 +0000
From: Jonathan Pringle <jpringle at helenkeller.org>
To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>, Scott
Davert <sdavert at helenkeller.org>
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Braille Access and inclusion
Message-ID: <EBB34E2C-1155-4CC2-B71D-4AED5CD83BB5 at helenkeller.org>
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 11:33:16 -0500
From: Stuart Salvador <stuartsalvador at gmail.com>
To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Scott Davert <sdavert at helenkeller.org>, Jonathan Pringle
<jpringle at helenkeller.org>
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Braille Access and inclusion
Message-ID:
<CAEe15j-sKtA8VgeBRGmMMopDGmXf_w=BOcfXyoh566wjOEd2QQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi Rod, Stuart here.
OK, whatever the next Zoom public meeting will be, I'll get on myself and
attempt to get through the IP Relay teleconference coaching the call
assistant to not do the relay announcement or explanation and try to get a
live transcript through them on my Mantis Q40 and see how that works out.
I'll use my Captionmate at the same time on a second line and see how it
compares to what I normally use then I'll send you the completed
transcripts from both so you can see the differences in each. Usually you
can have on Zoom meeting ID connected to audio and then a call-in ID
connected by phone alone. Sometimes I have to do this in order to get one
that works right, and usually I'd use Hamilton CapTel for that in recent
events, but IP Relay is publicly available without any app whereas I know
Hamilton CapTel (who did used to have a public version of their product
back in 2018 before they stopped supporting it) is still currently in beta
so they aren't technically public.
Thanks for your help raising this to Scott, Jonathan! I hope Scott may have
some additional insights. (Did Scott leave this list after the debacle last
month where he was questioning why NFB was scrapping accessibility for
members who couldn't attend in person? I'm not sure how to see who is
active on the list at any given time as I think the list of emails is
somehow secret or private.)
EOM
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 10:19?AM Jonathan Pringle via NFB-DB <
nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hello I am including Scott Davert, with the HKNC Tech Research and
> Innovation Center. Scott is definitely my go to person with questions
like
> this
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> *Jonathan Pringle* | Regional Representative for Region Eight
> he/him/his
> Helen Keller National Center
> ------------------------------
>
> Tucson, AZ 85653
> (m) 1-516-4171165
> jpringle at helenkeller.org
> helenkeller.org
>
> [image: Helen Keller National Center Logo]
>
> HKS is committed to making documents accessible and usable to
> participants, the HKS team and stakeholders.
> We recognize that accessibility is fluid and users are diverse.
> Therefore, even though the document may meet accessibility guidelines,
> there may be usability issues .
> If you have any questions or concerns about a document you receive please
> contact us
> > On Jul 15, 2023, at 2:31 PM, Rod and Ele Macdonald via NFB-DB <
> nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > Some time ago a discussion took place on this list relating to braille
> access to remote meetings such as Zoom. Stuart suggested that by using
> CapTel and relay services a deaf-blind, braille-only individual could
> access such meetings. I said I would research this.
> >
> > I wrote to CapTel but did not receive a response. I did, however, have
> extensive discussions with three T-Mobile employees - Keith Clark,
Director
> of DeafBlind Services; Cady Machee, Director of Captioning Services; and
> Lisa Tom, Director of Relay Hawaii.
> >
> > First, Keith Clark acknowledged that there were "problems" with braille
> access, and that they are "working on it."
> >
> > The T-Mobile folks all felt that the way to go in this type of situation
> would be to:
> >
> > 1. sign up in advance for captioning services, providing the relay with
> meeting information;
> > 2. Sign in to the meeting and, once captioning starts, request a
> transcript, which can be downloaded or emailed.
> >
> > This would not foster direct participation in the meeting, but at least
> one could have a transcript.
> >
> > I'll get to that in a moment, but first: While researching this I came
> up with the following:
> >
> > 1. A "good" braille reader reads at 1/3 - 1/2 the speed of a sighted
> reader of the same age - typically 70-100 words per minute for the braille
> reader and 200-300 for the print reader. Braille reading speeds of up to
> 400 words per minute have been achieved by some individuals who learned
> braille at a very young age.
> >
> > 2. Voice communication is typically 150-250 words per minute, but is
> subject to wide fluctuations - up to 400 words per minute in spurts.
> >
> > 3. Recorded braille reading speeds is typically for contracted,
> formatted braille on paper. "Computer braille" on a refreshable braille
> device is necessarily much slower.
> >
> > Given these speeds, and further given existing capabilities of current
> braille devices, only the very fastest of fast braille readers has a hope
> of participating real-time in a Zoom meeting The "input stream" is just
too
> fast.
> >
> > However, it is possible to get a text/word/PDF transcript of the meeting
> by signing up for captioning, and then requesting a transcript. I have yet
> to actually do this but from discussions it seems straightforward: One has
> to sign up for the meeting; captioning has to be turned on by the host;
the
> user has to sign in for captioning and also request a transcript and how
> the transcript is delivered (email, download, etc).
> >
> > Now comes the fun part. Relay Hawaii Conference Captioning (RCC) is only
> available 8:00-5:00 (Hawaii time) Monday through Friday. That would be
> 2:00-5:00 Eastern time. I checked out a Jaws training webinar ... nope,
> that is at noon eastern Time - too early.
> >
> > One of the restrictions: RCC is not available for individuals with
> speech disabilities. Not sure why.
> >
> > I then tried to plan to attend the NLS Bard "Patron Engagement" meeting
> held this past week. I then encountered RCC's next restriction - RCC is
not
> available for events hosted by Government employees as part of their work.
> (Reasonable accommodation? Contact relay representative.)
> >
> > This means RCC is not available for legislative meetings such as our
> Deaf and Blind Task Force, and not available for meetings sponsored by the
> University of Hawaii. And if I were still on the State Rehabilitation
> Council and it went remote, I would not qualify there either.
> >
> > I am not sure if it would be allowed for a meeting sponsored by a
> nonprofit-hosted event that is funded by a government agency.
> >
> > OK, more than I had intended, but the bottom line is this: Access to
> remote meetings by a braille-only consumer is either not possible for
> extremely difficult.
> >
> > Consider these two possibilities:
> >
> > 1. I read that 50% of blind folks aged 65 and older have some degree of
> hearing loss, usually a progressive condition. If these folks lose the
> ability to use their hearing in meetings, then what?
> >
> > 2. Folks with Usher syndrome have a degenerative vision loss. When they
> lose the ability to follow an interpreter visually, then what?
> >
> > Look around you - do you see (figuratively) a lot of older blind folks
> with degenerative hearing, or a lot of Usher syndrome folks who can no
> longer see an interpreter ... do you see them advocating for change, for
> improvements? It seems to me that it is the younger, "I CAN DO!" folks who
> are comfortable speaking out. The ones who have to say "I have trouble
> doing" or "I can't do" are not often heard from - and they are the ones
> with the greatest needs.
> >
> > Can we do anything to improve this situation? Can we add this to the
> list of topics to be considered?
> >
> > Rod
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NFB-DB mailing list
> > NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NFB-DB:
> >
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/jonathan.pringle%40hknc.
org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> NFB-DB mailing list
> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NFB-DB:
>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/stuartsalvador%40gmail.c
om
>
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 13:02:08 -0400
From: Scott Davert <scottdavert at gmail.com>
To: Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Braille Access and inclusion
Message-ID: <181202B1-6666-4053-8054-BC0B8FDAA489 at gmail.com>
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 12:32:10 -0500
From: Stuart Salvador <stuartsalvador at gmail.com>
To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Braille Access and inclusion
Message-ID:
<CAEe15j9=rOJGDQtiPmybXkUWsWoLs3WU+4yN4qosj2H6az2BxQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
HI Scott, Stuart here.
Thanks! I have not used CART before. I will try to use IP Relay more
with a point of interaction on a conference call/meeting and see what
happens. I have not personally tried because it scared me as to how it
would be received by those in the meeting considering that pacing and
interruption are a big factor in how well spoken words are received in
the context of a meeting. When possible, I have always tried to speak
(for better or worse), even when my voice was not functioning as I'd
prefer.
Perhaps simply a case of putting one's foot in it and hoping for the best!
EOM
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 12:03?PM Scott Davert via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Hello from vacation. Thus my email is not associated with HKNC...
> IP Relay is what I usually use in the case of Zoom meetings. Stuart seems
to already have done this in the past with varrying degrees of success. the
only other option, which is reliable, costs a lot of money. This would be
using CART through with 1capapp plug in. It works best when sent to a web
page. however, that requires you to pay a paptioner for the meeting, and
rates start at like $60 an hour. The challenge with all of this though comes
in when you wish to also participate. This becomes a very big challenge when
using IP Relay. It can be done, but the relay operator must interrupt the
meeting for you to add a comment. When I am able to get CART support, and
need to participate, I often use 2 devices paired to the same braille
display. One which displays CART, the other controls Zoom itself so that I
can do things like raise my hand, mute and unmute my audio and so forth.
>
> I hope this helps,
> Scott
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 16, 2023, at 12:35, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Rod, Stuart here.
>
> OK, whatever the next Zoom public meeting will be, I'll get on myself and
attempt to get through the IP Relay teleconference coaching the call
assistant to not do the relay announcement or explanation and try to get a
live transcript through them on my Mantis Q40 and see how that works out.
I'll use my Captionmate at the same time on a second line and see how it
compares to what I normally use then I'll send you the completed transcripts
from both so you can see the differences in each. Usually you can have on
Zoom meeting ID connected to audio and then a call-in ID connected by phone
alone. Sometimes I have to do this in order to get one that works right, and
usually I'd use Hamilton CapTel for that in recent events, but IP Relay is
publicly available without any app whereas I know Hamilton CapTel (who did
used to have a public version of their product back in 2018 before they
stopped supporting it) is still currently in beta so they aren't technically
public.
>
> Thanks for your help raising this to Scott, Jonathan! I hope Scott may
have some additional insights. (Did Scott leave this list after the debacle
last month where he was questioning why NFB was scrapping accessibility for
members who couldn't attend in person? I'm not sure how to see who is active
on the list at any given time as I think the list of emails is somehow
secret or private.)
>
> EOM
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 10:19?AM Jonathan Pringle via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello I am including Scott Davert, with the HKNC Tech Research and
Innovation Center. Scott is definitely my go to person with questions like
this
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Jonathan Pringle | Regional Representative for Region Eight
>> he/him/his
>> Helen Keller National Center
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Tucson, AZ 85653
>> (m) 1-516-4171165
>> jpringle at helenkeller.org
>> helenkeller.org
>>
>> <hknclogo_cedfcdbb-98bc-4727-8aac-59c2400ea528.png>
>>
>> HKS is committed to making documents accessible and usable to
participants, the HKS team and stakeholders.
>> We recognize that accessibility is fluid and users are diverse.
>> Therefore, even though the document may meet accessibility guidelines,
there may be usability issues .
>> If you have any questions or concerns about a document you receive please
contact us
>>
>> > On Jul 15, 2023, at 2:31 PM, Rod and Ele Macdonald via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > ?
>> > Some time ago a discussion took place on this list relating to braille
access to remote meetings such as Zoom. Stuart suggested that by using
CapTel and relay services a deaf-blind, braille-only individual could access
such meetings. I said I would research this.
>> >
>> > I wrote to CapTel but did not receive a response. I did, however, have
extensive discussions with three T-Mobile employees - Keith Clark, Director
of DeafBlind Services; Cady Machee, Director of Captioning Services; and
Lisa Tom, Director of Relay Hawaii.
>> >
>> > First, Keith Clark acknowledged that there were "problems" with braille
access, and that they are "working on it."
>> >
>> > The T-Mobile folks all felt that the way to go in this type of
situation would be to:
>> >
>> > 1. sign up in advance for captioning services, providing the relay with
meeting information;
>> > 2. Sign in to the meeting and, once captioning starts, request a
transcript, which can be downloaded or emailed.
>> >
>> > This would not foster direct participation in the meeting, but at least
one could have a transcript.
>> >
>> > I'll get to that in a moment, but first: While researching this I came
up with the following:
>> >
>> > 1. A "good" braille reader reads at 1/3 - 1/2 the speed of a sighted
reader of the same age - typically 70-100 words per minute for the braille
reader and 200-300 for the print reader. Braille reading speeds of up to 400
words per minute have been achieved by some individuals who learned braille
at a very young age.
>> >
>> > 2. Voice communication is typically 150-250 words per minute, but is
subject to wide fluctuations - up to 400 words per minute in spurts.
>> >
>> > 3. Recorded braille reading speeds is typically for contracted,
formatted braille on paper. "Computer braille" on a refreshable braille
device is necessarily much slower.
>> >
>> > Given these speeds, and further given existing capabilities of current
braille devices, only the very fastest of fast braille readers has a hope of
participating real-time in a Zoom meeting The "input stream" is just too
fast.
>> >
>> > However, it is possible to get a text/word/PDF transcript of the
meeting by signing up for captioning, and then requesting a transcript. I
have yet to actually do this but from discussions it seems straightforward:
One has to sign up for the meeting; captioning has to be turned on by the
host; the user has to sign in for captioning and also request a transcript
and how the transcript is delivered (email, download, etc).
>> >
>> > Now comes the fun part. Relay Hawaii Conference Captioning (RCC) is
only available 8:00-5:00 (Hawaii time) Monday through Friday. That would be
2:00-5:00 Eastern time. I checked out a Jaws training webinar ... nope, that
is at noon eastern Time - too early.
>> >
>> > One of the restrictions: RCC is not available for individuals with
speech disabilities. Not sure why.
>> >
>> > I then tried to plan to attend the NLS Bard "Patron Engagement" meeting
held this past week. I then encountered RCC's next restriction - RCC is not
available for events hosted by Government employees as part of their work.
(Reasonable accommodation? Contact relay representative.)
>> >
>> > This means RCC is not available for legislative meetings such as our
Deaf and Blind Task Force, and not available for meetings sponsored by the
University of Hawaii. And if I were still on the State Rehabilitation
Council and it went remote, I would not qualify there either.
>> >
>> > I am not sure if it would be allowed for a meeting sponsored by a
nonprofit-hosted event that is funded by a government agency.
>> >
>> > OK, more than I had intended, but the bottom line is this: Access to
remote meetings by a braille-only consumer is either not possible for
extremely difficult.
>> >
>> > Consider these two possibilities:
>> >
>> > 1. I read that 50% of blind folks aged 65 and older have some degree of
hearing loss, usually a progressive condition. If these folks lose the
ability to use their hearing in meetings, then what?
>> >
>> > 2. Folks with Usher syndrome have a degenerative vision loss. When they
lose the ability to follow an interpreter visually, then what?
>> >
>> > Look around you - do you see (figuratively) a lot of older blind folks
with degenerative hearing, or a lot of Usher syndrome folks who can no
longer see an interpreter ... do you see them advocating for change, for
improvements? It seems to me that it is the younger, "I CAN DO!" folks who
are comfortable speaking out. The ones who have to say "I have trouble
doing" or "I can't do" are not often heard from - and they are the ones
with the greatest needs.
>> >
>> > Can we do anything to improve this situation? Can we add this to the
list of topics to be considered?
>> >
>> > Rod
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > NFB-DB mailing list
>> > NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>> >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/jonathan.pringle%40hknc.
org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFB-DB mailing list
>> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/stuartsalvador%40gmail.c
om
>
> _______________________________________________
> NFB-DB mailing list
> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/stuartsalvador%40gmail.c
om
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 14:29:28 -0400
From: Scott Davert <scottdavert at gmail.com>
To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Braille Access and inclusion
Message-ID: <79E650EC-8B00-4E14-A320-2EEC62EDD01F at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Stuart.
One of the nice things about IP Relay is that you can save the transcript,
and if you do not get to it for a few minutes after the call, it will still
be there. I'd recommend using the website and a computer for this, as
sometimes mobile connections are a bit less stable.
The other thing I've done in cases where I needed to use my voice is to call
through Google Voice and speak. That doesn't work so well these days, as I'm
sometimes not able to understand speech clearly enough to even know when it
would be my turn. The hand raising tool of Zoom sometimes helps with this.
Hopefully whatever Hamelton is working on will work well with braille. When
I tried their app awhile ago, it was quite challenging on my iPhone with
braille. Having that fixed would be fantastic! Feel free to let me know how
it goes, I'm always looking to compare notes with other people in a similar
boat as I am. I think what will help with this kind of meeting will be if
someone lays out communication rules and then the tricky part, whether
people will follow them or not. Identification of speakers can also be a
challenge, as I'm sure you know from captioning.
Take care,
Scott
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 16, 2023, at 13:34, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
?HI Scott, Stuart here.
Thanks! I have not used CART before. I will try to use IP Relay more
with a point of interaction on a conference call/meeting and see what
happens. I have not personally tried because it scared me as to how it
would be received by those in the meeting considering that pacing and
interruption are a big factor in how well spoken words are received in
the context of a meeting. When possible, I have always tried to speak
(for better or worse), even when my voice was not functioning as I'd
prefer.
Perhaps simply a case of putting one's foot in it and hoping for the best!
EOM
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 12:03?PM Scott Davert via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Hello from vacation. Thus my email is not associated with HKNC...
> IP Relay is what I usually use in the case of Zoom meetings. Stuart seems
to already have done this in the past with varrying degrees of success. the
only other option, which is reliable, costs a lot of money. This would be
using CART through with 1capapp plug in. It works best when sent to a web
page. however, that requires you to pay a paptioner for the meeting, and
rates start at like $60 an hour. The challenge with all of this though comes
in when you wish to also participate. This becomes a very big challenge when
using IP Relay. It can be done, but the relay operator must interrupt the
meeting for you to add a comment. When I am able to get CART support, and
need to participate, I often use 2 devices paired to the same braille
display. One which displays CART, the other controls Zoom itself so that I
can do things like raise my hand, mute and unmute my audio and so forth.
>
> I hope this helps,
> Scott
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 16, 2023, at 12:35, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Rod, Stuart here.
>
> OK, whatever the next Zoom public meeting will be, I'll get on myself and
attempt to get through the IP Relay teleconference coaching the call
assistant to not do the relay announcement or explanation and try to get a
live transcript through them on my Mantis Q40 and see how that works out.
I'll use my Captionmate at the same time on a second line and see how it
compares to what I normally use then I'll send you the completed transcripts
from both so you can see the differences in each. Usually you can have on
Zoom meeting ID connected to audio and then a call-in ID connected by phone
alone. Sometimes I have to do this in order to get one that works right, and
usually I'd use Hamilton CapTel for that in recent events, but IP Relay is
publicly available without any app whereas I know Hamilton CapTel (who did
used to have a public version of their product back in 2018 before they
stopped supporting it) is still currently in beta so they aren't technically
public.
>
> Thanks for your help raising this to Scott, Jonathan! I hope Scott may
have some additional insights. (Did Scott leave this list after the debacle
last month where he was questioning why NFB was scrapping accessibility for
members who couldn't attend in person? I'm not sure how to see who is active
on the list at any given time as I think the list of emails is somehow
secret or private.)
>
> EOM
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 10:19?AM Jonathan Pringle via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello I am including Scott Davert, with the HKNC Tech Research and
Innovation Center. Scott is definitely my go to person with questions like
this
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Jonathan Pringle | Regional Representative for Region Eight
>> he/him/his
>> Helen Keller National Center
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Tucson, AZ 85653
>> (m) 1-516-4171165
>> jpringle at helenkeller.org
>> helenkeller.org
>>
>> <hknclogo_cedfcdbb-98bc-4727-8aac-59c2400ea528.png>
>>
>> HKS is committed to making documents accessible and usable to
participants, the HKS team and stakeholders.
>> We recognize that accessibility is fluid and users are diverse.
>> Therefore, even though the document may meet accessibility guidelines,
there may be usability issues .
>> If you have any questions or concerns about a document you receive please
contact us
>>
>>> On Jul 15, 2023, at 2:31 PM, Rod and Ele Macdonald via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> Some time ago a discussion took place on this list relating to braille
access to remote meetings such as Zoom. Stuart suggested that by using
CapTel and relay services a deaf-blind, braille-only individual could access
such meetings. I said I would research this.
>>>
>>> I wrote to CapTel but did not receive a response. I did, however, have
extensive discussions with three T-Mobile employees - Keith Clark, Director
of DeafBlind Services; Cady Machee, Director of Captioning Services; and
Lisa Tom, Director of Relay Hawaii.
>>>
>>> First, Keith Clark acknowledged that there were "problems" with braille
access, and that they are "working on it."
>>>
>>> The T-Mobile folks all felt that the way to go in this type of situation
would be to:
>>>
>>> 1. sign up in advance for captioning services, providing the relay with
meeting information;
>>> 2. Sign in to the meeting and, once captioning starts, request a
transcript, which can be downloaded or emailed.
>>>
>>> This would not foster direct participation in the meeting, but at least
one could have a transcript.
>>>
>>> I'll get to that in a moment, but first: While researching this I came
up with the following:
>>>
>>> 1. A "good" braille reader reads at 1/3 - 1/2 the speed of a sighted
reader of the same age - typically 70-100 words per minute for the braille
reader and 200-300 for the print reader. Braille reading speeds of up to 400
words per minute have been achieved by some individuals who learned braille
at a very young age.
>>>
>>> 2. Voice communication is typically 150-250 words per minute, but is
subject to wide fluctuations - up to 400 words per minute in spurts.
>>>
>>> 3. Recorded braille reading speeds is typically for contracted,
formatted braille on paper. "Computer braille" on a refreshable braille
device is necessarily much slower.
>>>
>>> Given these speeds, and further given existing capabilities of current
braille devices, only the very fastest of fast braille readers has a hope of
participating real-time in a Zoom meeting The "input stream" is just too
fast.
>>>
>>> However, it is possible to get a text/word/PDF transcript of the meeting
by signing up for captioning, and then requesting a transcript. I have yet
to actually do this but from discussions it seems straightforward: One has
to sign up for the meeting; captioning has to be turned on by the host; the
user has to sign in for captioning and also request a transcript and how the
transcript is delivered (email, download, etc).
>>>
>>> Now comes the fun part. Relay Hawaii Conference Captioning (RCC) is only
available 8:00-5:00 (Hawaii time) Monday through Friday. That would be
2:00-5:00 Eastern time. I checked out a Jaws training webinar ... nope, that
is at noon eastern Time - too early.
>>>
>>> One of the restrictions: RCC is not available for individuals with
speech disabilities. Not sure why.
>>>
>>> I then tried to plan to attend the NLS Bard "Patron Engagement" meeting
held this past week. I then encountered RCC's next restriction - RCC is not
available for events hosted by Government employees as part of their work.
(Reasonable accommodation? Contact relay representative.)
>>>
>>> This means RCC is not available for legislative meetings such as our
Deaf and Blind Task Force, and not available for meetings sponsored by the
University of Hawaii. And if I were still on the State Rehabilitation
Council and it went remote, I would not qualify there either.
>>>
>>> I am not sure if it would be allowed for a meeting sponsored by a
nonprofit-hosted event that is funded by a government agency.
>>>
>>> OK, more than I had intended, but the bottom line is this: Access to
remote meetings by a braille-only consumer is either not possible for
extremely difficult.
>>>
>>> Consider these two possibilities:
>>>
>>> 1. I read that 50% of blind folks aged 65 and older have some degree of
hearing loss, usually a progressive condition. If these folks lose the
ability to use their hearing in meetings, then what?
>>>
>>> 2. Folks with Usher syndrome have a degenerative vision loss. When they
lose the ability to follow an interpreter visually, then what?
>>>
>>> Look around you - do you see (figuratively) a lot of older blind folks
with degenerative hearing, or a lot of Usher syndrome folks who can no
longer see an interpreter ... do you see them advocating for change, for
improvements? It seems to me that it is the younger, "I CAN DO!" folks who
are comfortable speaking out. The ones who have to say "I have trouble
doing" or "I can't do" are not often heard from - and they are the ones
with the greatest needs.
>>>
>>> Can we do anything to improve this situation? Can we add this to the
list of topics to be considered?
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NFB-DB mailing list
>>> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/jonathan.pringle%40hknc.
org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFB-DB mailing list
>> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/stuartsalvador%40gmail.c
om
>
> _______________________________________________
> NFB-DB mailing list
> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/stuartsalvador%40gmail.c
om
_______________________________________________
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 12:42:14 -0600
From: Frank Skogsberg <skogsbergf at gmail.com>
To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] I am asking for. Suggestions, and making shore
that all have my contact info?
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 11:50:59 -0700
From: Robert Stigile <rnstechnology at gmail.com>
To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] I am asking for. Suggestions, and making shore
that all have my contact info?
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 14:52:13 -1000
From: Rod and Ele Macdonald <erjmacdonald at gmail.com>
To: nfb-db at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Braille Access and inclusion
Message-ID: <20230717005213.erjmacdonald at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
I am not sure if it is during sign-up or after the event, but I believe you
can choose one of three options for the transcript, including having it
emailed to you. They even encourage you to submit a list of known
participants for the captioner to use in identifying speakers.
I wish NLS used a captioner, but they told me to turn "Transcript" on and
just save all the flood that arrives.
Enjoy your vacation, Scott.
Rod
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Davert via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
To: nfb-db at nfbnet.org
CC: scottdavert at gmail.com
Date: Sunday, July 16, 2023 8:29 am
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Braille Access and inclusion
>
>
> Hi Stuart.
One of the nice things about IP Relay is that you can save the transcript,
and if you do not get to it for a few minutes after the call, it will still
be there. I'd recommend using the website and a computer for this, as
sometimes mobile connections are a bit less stable.
The other thing I've done in cases where I needed to use my voice is to call
through Google Voice and speak. That doesn't work so well these days, as I'm
sometimes not able to understand speech clearly enough to even know when it
would be my turn. The hand raising tool of Zoom sometimes helps with this.
Hopefully whatever Hamelton is working on will work well with braille. When
I tried their app awhile ago, it was quite challenging on my iPhone with
braille. Having that fixed would be fantastic! Feel free to let me know how
it goes, I'm always looking to compare notes with other people in a similar
boat as I am. I think what will help with this kind of meeting will be if
someone lays out communication rules and then the tricky part, whether
people will follow them or not. Identification of speakers can also be a
challenge, as I'm sure you know from captioning.
Take care,
Scott
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 16, 2023, at 13:34, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
?HI Scott, Stuart here.
Thanks! I have not used CART before. I will try to use IP Relay more
with a point of interaction on a conference call/meeting and see what
happens. I have not personally tried because it scared me as to how it
would be received by those in the meeting considering that pacing and
interruption are a big factor in how well spoken words are received in
the context of a meeting. When possible, I have always tried to speak
(for better or worse), even when my voice was not functioning as I'd
prefer.
Perhaps simply a case of putting one's foot in it and hoping for the best!
EOM
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 12:03?PM Scott Davert via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Hello from vacation. Thus my email is not associated with HKNC...
> IP Relay is what I usually use in the case of Zoom meetings. Stuart seems
to already have done this in the past with varrying degrees of success. the
only other option, which is reliable, costs a lot of money. This would be
using CART through with 1capapp plug in. It works best when sent to a web
page. however, that requires you to pay a paptioner for the meeting, and
rates start at like $60 an hour. The challenge with all of this though comes
in when you wish to also participate. This becomes a very big challenge when
using IP Relay. It can be done, but the relay operator must interrupt the
meeting for you to add a comment. When I am able to get CART support, and
need to participate, I often use 2 devices paired to the same braille
display. One which displays CART, the other controls Zoom itself so that I
can do things like raise my hand, mute and unmute my audio and so forth.
>
> I hope this helps,
> Scott
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 16, 2023, at 12:35, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Rod, Stuart here.
>
> OK, whatever the next Zoom public meeting will be, I'll get on myself and
attempt to get through the IP Relay teleconference coaching the call
assistant to not do the relay announcement or explanation and try to get a
live transcript through them on my Mantis Q40 and see how that works out.
I'll use my Captionmate at the same time on a second line and see how it
compares to what I normally use then I'll send you the completed transcripts
from both so you can see the differences in each. Usually you can have on
Zoom meeting ID connected to audio and then a call-in ID connected by phone
alone. Sometimes I have to do this in order to get one that works right, and
usually I'd use Hamilton CapTel for that in recent events, but IP Relay is
publicly available without any app whereas I know Hamilton CapTel (who did
used to have a public version of their product back in 2018 before they
stopped supporting it) is still currently in beta so they aren't technically
public.
>
> Thanks for your help raising this to Scott, Jonathan! I hope Scott may
have some additional insights. (Did Scott leave this list after the debacle
last month where he was questioning why NFB was scrapping accessibility for
members who couldn't attend in person? I'm not sure how to see who is active
on the list at any given time as I think the list of emails is somehow
secret or private.)
>
> EOM
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 10:19?AM Jonathan Pringle via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello I am including Scott Davert, with the HKNC Tech Research and
Innovation Center. Scott is definitely my go to person with questions like
this
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Jonathan Pringle | Regional Representative for Region Eight
>> he/him/his
>> Helen Keller National Center
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Tucson, AZ 85653
>> (m) 1-516-4171165
>> jpringle at helenkeller.org
>> helenkeller.org
>>
>> <hknclogo_cedfcdbb-98bc-4727-8aac-59c2400ea528.png>
>>
>> HKS is committed to making documents accessible and usable to
participants, the HKS team and stakeholders.
>> We recognize that accessibility is fluid and users are diverse.
>> Therefore, even though the document may meet accessibility guidelines,
there may be usability issues .
>> If you have any questions or concerns about a document you receive please
contact us
>>
>>> On Jul 15, 2023, at 2:31 PM, Rod and Ele Macdonald via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> Some time ago a discussion took place on this list relating to braille
access to remote meetings such as Zoom. Stuart suggested that by using
CapTel and relay services a deaf-blind, braille-only individual could access
such meetings. I said I would research this.
>>>
>>> I wrote to CapTel but did not receive a response. I did, however, have
extensive discussions with three T-Mobile employees - Keith Clark, Director
of DeafBlind Services; Cady Machee, Director of Captioning Services; and
Lisa Tom, Director of Relay Hawaii.
>>>
>>> First, Keith Clark acknowledged that there were "problems" with braille
access, and that they are "working on it."
>>>
>>> The T-Mobile folks all felt that the way to go in this type of situation
would be to:
>>>
>>> 1. sign up in advance for captioning services, providing the relay with
meeting information;
>>> 2. Sign in to the meeting and, once captioning starts, request a
transcript, which can be downloaded or emailed.
>>>
>>> This would not foster direct participation in the meeting, but at least
one could have a transcript.
>>>
>>> I'll get to that in a moment, but first: While researching this I came
up with the following:
>>>
>>> 1. A "good" braille reader reads at 1/3 - 1/2 the speed of a sighted
reader of the same age - typically 70-100 words per minute for the braille
reader and 200-300 for the print reader. Braille reading speeds of up to 400
words per minute have been achieved by some individuals who learned braille
at a very young age.
>>>
>>> 2. Voice communication is typically 150-250 words per minute, but is
subject to wide fluctuations - up to 400 words per minute in spurts.
>>>
>>> 3. Recorded braille reading speeds is typically for contracted,
formatted braille on paper. "Computer braille" on a refreshable braille
device is necessarily much slower.
>>>
>>> Given these speeds, and further given existing capabilities of current
braille devices, only the very fastest of fast braille readers has a hope of
participating real-time in a Zoom meeting The "input stream" is just too
fast.
>>>
>>> However, it is possible to get a text/word/PDF transcript of the meeting
by signing up for captioning, and then requesting a transcript. I have yet
to actually do this but from discussions it seems straightforward: One has
to sign up for the meeting; captioning has to be turned on by the host; the
user has to sign in for captioning and also request a transcript and how the
transcript is delivered (email, download, etc).
>>>
>>> Now comes the fun part. Relay Hawaii Conference Captioning (RCC) is only
available 8:00-5:00 (Hawaii time) Monday through Friday. That would be
2:00-5:00 Eastern time. I checked out a Jaws training webinar ... nope, that
is at noon eastern Time - too early.
>>>
>>> One of the restrictions: RCC is not available for individuals with
speech disabilities. Not sure why.
>>>
>>> I then tried to plan to attend the NLS Bard "Patron Engagement" meeting
held this past week. I then encountered RCC's next restriction - RCC is not
available for events hosted by Government employees as part of their work.
(Reasonable accommodation? Contact relay representative.)
>>>
>>> This means RCC is not available for legislative meetings such as our
Deaf and Blind Task Force, and not available for meetings sponsored by the
University of Hawaii. And if I were still on the State Rehabilitation
Council and it went remote, I would not qualify there either.
>>>
>>> I am not sure if it would be allowed for a meeting sponsored by a
nonprofit-hosted event that is funded by a government agency.
>>>
>>> OK, more than I had intended, but the bottom line is this: Access to
remote meetings by a braille-only consumer is either not possible for
extremely difficult.
>>>
>>> Consider these two possibilities:
>>>
>>> 1. I read that 50% of blind folks aged 65 and older have some degree of
hearing loss, usually a progressive condition. If these folks lose the
ability to use their hearing in meetings, then what?
>>>
>>> 2. Folks with Usher syndrome have a degenerative vision loss. When they
lose the ability to follow an interpreter visually, then what?
>>>
>>> Look around you - do you see (figuratively) a lot of older blind folks
with degenerative hearing, or a lot of Usher syndrome folks who can no
longer see an interpreter ... do you see them advocating for change, for
improvements? It seems to me that it is the younger, "I CAN DO!" folks who
are comfortable speaking out. The ones who have to say "I have trouble
doing" or "I can't do" are not often heard from - and they are the ones
with the greatest needs.
>>>
>>> Can we do anything to improve this situation? Can we add this to the
list of topics to be considered?
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NFB-DB mailing list
>>> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/jonathan.pringle%40hknc.
org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFB-DB mailing list
>> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/stuartsalvador%40gmail.c
om
>
> _______________________________________________
> NFB-DB mailing list
> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/stuartsalvador%40gmail.c
om
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
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_______________________________________________
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NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 20:26:48 -0500
From: Stuart Salvador <stuartsalvador at gmail.com>
To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Adding Hearing Enhancement to NFB App
Message-ID:
<CAEe15j_VzyUoRnN4-f_yx8BMBmXxYJKwrx8VyLf8kWBSHndxxw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hi Peter, Stuart here.
I think this would be a great improvement, setting the NFB app up as a
model for what accessibility should be for other apps could be a
game-changer if we have something to reference as a standard-bearer,
and via VoiceOver this enhancement may help Braille display use as
well with better accuracy. Thanks for this!
EOM
On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 4:02?PM Peter Donahue via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Good afternoon everyone,
>
> With so many individuals needing hearing enhancement during NFB
events one is driven to ask why this feature isn't built directly into the
NFB App. This would reduce the need for assistive listening devices and
there would be no need to spend money to secure the device since it is
already in the NFB App and could be an example for others to follow.
>
> Whenever I have requested assistive listening for an event either
the venue does not offer it, or in order to procure the assistive listening
device one must either pay a security deposit as is done during NFB events
or the venue will want to hold the customer's driver's license opening such
customers up to possible identity theft. To me neither situation is
exceptable. Many of these same venues also have apps. The AT&T, and Tobin
Center for the performing arts in San Antonio have their own apps. For sure
I know that the Tobin Center will want to hold one's driver's license to
secure the assistive listening device. Adding an assistive listening
component to their app would allow paying customers to take advantage of
this service without the need for the venue to worry about their hearing
enhancement devices walking out the door and would protect the personal
information of all attendees including those needing hearing enhancement. A
resolution dealing with this issue would be great to bring to next year's
national convention. But first let the NFB add a hearing enhancement
component to its app as an example for others to follow. All the best.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NFB-DB mailing list
> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/stuartsalvador%40gmail.c
om
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:17:56 -0500
From: rockyhart1221 at gmail.com
To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Adding Hearing Enhancement to NFB App
Message-ID: <0ECEE480-859E-4867-9A31-785EDB414639 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
agreed.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 16, 2023, at 8:28 PM, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB
<nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> ?Hi Peter, Stuart here.
>
> I think this would be a great improvement, setting the NFB app up as a
> model for what accessibility should be for other apps could be a
> game-changer if we have something to reference as a standard-bearer,
> and via VoiceOver this enhancement may help Braille display use as
> well with better accuracy. Thanks for this!
>
> EOM
>
>
>> On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 4:02?PM Peter Donahue via NFB-DB
>> <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>
>> With so many individuals needing hearing enhancement during NFB
events one is driven to ask why this feature isn't built directly into the
NFB App. This would reduce the need for assistive listening devices and
there would be no need to spend money to secure the device since it is
already in the NFB App and could be an example for others to follow.
>>
>> Whenever I have requested assistive listening for an event either
the venue does not offer it, or in order to procure the assistive listening
device one must either pay a security deposit as is done during NFB events
or the venue will want to hold the customer's driver's license opening such
customers up to possible identity theft. To me neither situation is
exceptable. Many of these same venues also have apps. The AT&T, and Tobin
Center for the performing arts in San Antonio have their own apps. For sure
I know that the Tobin Center will want to hold one's driver's license to
secure the assistive listening device. Adding an assistive listening
component to their app would allow paying customers to take advantage of
this service without the need for the venue to worry about their hearing
enhancement devices walking out the door and would protect the personal
information of all attendees including those needing hearing enhancement. A
resolution dealing with this issue would be great to bring to next year's
national convention. But first let the NFB add a hearing enhancement
component to its app as an example for others to follow. All the best.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFB-DB mailing list
>> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-db_nfbnet.org/stuartsalvador%40gmail.c
om
>
> _______________________________________________
> NFB-DB mailing list
> NFB-DB at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-db_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
NFB-DB:
>
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m
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
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End of NFB-DB Digest, Vol 153, Issue 11
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