[NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?

Kat Bottner kat.bottner at gmail.com
Mon Jun 12 21:35:03 UTC 2023 

In order for the members of the national Federation of the blind to have voting privileges, remotely, the board of directors would have to approve this, basically, I believe this would include having to make an amendment to the national constitution. This is quite a process, so this could not be done overnight. I'm hoping Sheila and Carla can weigh in on this discussion if I forgotten anything. I hope this information is helpful. 
Thanks,
Katdirector

> On Jun 12, 2023, at 4:43 PM, Scott Davert via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> Just to circle back regarding inclusive voting, it's my understanding that ACB is already doing this with the current convention. Will NFB catch up?
> 
> Scott
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jun 11, 2023, at 00:50, Rod and Ele Macdonald via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Stuart. I have a lot of reading/research/motivation ahead of me. Believe it or not, I have a lifetime teaching credential in computer science, but that was a lifetime ago. I was too busy working to stay tuned when Windows came along, and have been very out of it for the past 25 years. I donated my two TeleBraille devices to a charity in Kenya two years ago.
> 
> T-Mobile is now the provider in Hawaii, taking over from Sprint in the last year or so. They hosted a get-acquainted event for DB folks a month or two ago, and not a single DB person showed up. So in effect, no-show, no-go. 
> 
> In the past - before COVID - a CAN interpreter was how I participated in meetings. I have been thinking off-and-on about that concept working remotely - an interpreter at the meeting typing CAN-style, the communication going TTY-style over a phone line, and I read it remotely. That scheme would enable the interpreter to properly identify speakers and give visual information, such as hands up or audience reaction. But it also raises the question of how the consumer could raise his/her own hand. 
> 
> I will also search for a primer on "modern" TTY etiquette. 
> 
> Thank you again for the information. I have a lot of research to do. I did submit testimony on DB access to Zoom when they were considering revisions to the internet accessibility guidelines, but I don't know if it ever helped.
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB  <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
> To:  nfb-db at nfbnet.org
> CC: stuartsalvador at gmail.com
> Date: Saturday, June 10, 2023 5:34 pm
> Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Rod, Stuart here.
> Hamilton Web CapTel doesn't require a cell phone or smartphone. They
> do ask for a phone number to contact you, but in my experience they've
> never used it. All Hamilton Web CapTel or Sprint IP Relay should
> require is being able to use a web browser.
> Hamilton Web CapTel is available here (you have to sign up and then
> confirm by email then you can use it):
> http://app.engage.hamiltontel.com/e/er?s=1575294410&lid=388&elqTrackId=5d753d098ac3417488a195a67e796883&elq=24391fc5764f435a8edbfb1f889abae2&elqaid=812&elqat=1
> IP Relay will also work if you can convince the Call Assistant to not
> speak and only relay information to you one way after entering the
> codes (the access codes for audio conferencing can be sent to you by
> email so technically you don't even need to have Zoom installed or
> load it to do the audio conferencing part of it if someone sends that
> information out). I know for Missouri T-Mobile is our IP Relay
> provider, not sure if it's a different provider where you are, but
> this works too it is just you must understand TTY syntax (which it
> sounds like you do as I do so it should be easy enough):
> https://tmobileiprelay.com/auth/login
> If you want any help on a practice Zoom call let me know. Either of
> these services can technically work with regular teleconference also,
> but for IP Relay you have to remember to tell the Call Assistant not
> to announce and to provide one-way communication only after the access
> codes are entered to enter the teleconference or audio conference part
> of the meeting.
> Please let me know if you need help signing up for either service and
> I can give you the contact emails. They have really nice
> representatives who will be happy to help you get going on either.
> EOM
>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 10:08?PM Rod and Ele Macdonald via NFB-DB
>> <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Stuart & Doula,
>> 
>> Thank you both for the eye-opening (figuratively) information. I did not know of these possibilities. I was once computer-literate, but I am pretty lost these days.
>> 
>> For a start I have never owned a cell phone, if you can believe that. I spent many years using a BrailleSense notetaker (first the BrailleSense Plus and then the U2), but the U2 is no longer usable for anything except email - and I do use it for that.
>> 
>> I used to use the TeleBraille - I was even involved in its development - but the TTY pretty much died when Deaf folks gained access to texting, and when computers no longer needed a phone line for dial-up access, my hibernation began. Even my braille display is circa 2015. And, no, ICC and DVr are not options for me.
>> 
>> So I am an extreme case, it seems.
>> 
>> At legislative meetings here I used a CAN interpreter typing on a standard keyboard and attached to  a Handy Tech Braille Star display, circa 2004. That worked fairly well as long as I had a good interpreter. But you would be surprised how few quality CANners there are out there; I was very fortunate to have three good ones.
>> 
>> Back to tech: I would certainly be interested in the possible solutions you folks have mentioned. I do not know what options are available, and I readily acknowledge that I am the weak link here. But I am very interested, and if this discussion can help others ... very, very interested.
>> 
>> I'll try to follow up on some of the ideas Stuart mentioned. Do they actually require a cell phone? That in itself will represent a lot to learn.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Rod
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Doula Jarboe via NFB-DB  <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
>> To:  nfb-db at nfbnet.org
>> CC: doula.jarboe at gmail.com
>> Date: Saturday, June 10, 2023 3:06 pm
>> Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Stuart,
>>    Thank you so much for sharing as that might be helpful to others as well who struggle with Zoom and closed captioning.  My understanding is that if a captioner use text stream and I hope I'm using the correct name.  But if that's the case then being able to choose how quickly or slowly you need scrolling to keep following is something you can manipulate.  I'm an Android user, and when I use Zoom on my phone it will often pop up live transcript.  Since I dent to be fine hearing with my ears and earing aids I haven't really tried using it.  So again in that case I don't know if there's any way to control the speed of that either.  I'm always happy to know about new resources, so thank you again for sharing.
>> Warmly,
>> Doula
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFB-DB <nfb-db-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB
>> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2023 6:49 PM
>> To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Stuart Salvador <stuartsalvador at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?
>> Hi Rod, Stuart here.
>> When I get on Zoom, I haven't found a way to make the captioning scrollable/selectable. The field automatically changes lines on my Braille display and pacing is controlled by some inscrutable Zoom algorithm. The captioning is in no way interactive. Instead, I select Audio and dial-in on phone to connect under my same name (so it doesn't show as a separate connection). I use Captionmate for that so I can keep up. Captionmate is free and Hamilton CapTel also recently redid their service to allow their website interface to be used again if you don't have a device that uses apps like Captionmate. Hamilton CapTel web interface is similar to IP Relay and yet without IP Relay syntax or delays. You don't actually have to at any time speak for Captionmate or Hamilton CapTel and can do everything through the interface. This should work with a Braille display either with a PC or that has its own browser function. I used to do it on my BrailleSense U2, but now I have a Mantis Q40 so I need to do things differently.
>> Anyway, Captionmate and Hamilton Web CapTel let you select what you are reading. It's the only way I have any chance of keeping up to understand what's happening on Zoom. So, when I do that, I'm not technically using Zoom Captions at all. I hope that helps if you'd like to explore that possibility to access Zoom simply as though it were a teleconference instead.
>> http://app.engage.hamiltontel.com/e/er?s=1575294410&lid=388&elqTrackId=5d753d098ac3417488a195a67e796883&elq=24391fc5764f435a8edbfb1f889abae2&elqaid=812&elqat=1
>> I hope this may help you, and I'd be happy to host a Zoom for you just to have it open so you could test the audio teleconferencing with something like Hamilton Web CapTel. This service has been out of commission a long time and I'm so glad they brought it back as it's OK for teleconferencing unlike IP Relay which can have some barriers to access because of how it works.
>> EOM
>> 
>>> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 2:35?PM Rod and Ele Macdonald via NFB-DB <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank you, Doula. Thank you for taking the time and being upbeat about solutions.
>>> 
>>> Last night (It must have been early this morning for you) I submitted a list of possible ways in which inclusion could be pursued for those who, for whatever reason, find it hard to show up in person. I am not "pushing" any of them, but hope they are at least worth considering.
>>> 
>>> If there is a way to make Zoom captions compatible with a braille display, at the user's speed, I have not come across it yet. 30 years ago a device was developed to enable a braille user, using a TeleBraille, to follow TV captions. A very few consumers found it fascinating, but the device never caught on.
>>> 
>>> It is getting harder and harder t o develop these "far out" items, because of cost, development time, small market and the ever-present search for profit. But  even so, sometimes "our issues" remove us from the mainstream to such an extent that a viable solution is a real, real challenge.
>>> 
>>> My primary means of receptive communication, since 1975, has been tactile fingerspelling. That means the speaker/interpreter has to spell out works into the palm of my hand. Later I started using a braille display attached to a computer keyboard. Using either of these methods, the fastest receptive communication  I could handle was about 50 words per minute.
>>> 
>>> Still, that was a big leap forward. It was enough to go back to grad school and get  a Master's degree - and start a Doctorate program. It was enough to enable me to serve as President of AADB for 12 years, and as VP of the World Federation of the Deaf-Blind, now DeafBlind.
>>> 
>>> But I am pushing 82 years old, have no useful sight or hearing, have severe arthritis to the point of needing a walker to go out, and my receptive skills have dropped significantly. Very impressive developments in communication technology may well be just around the corner, but I am just not up to it, physically, geographically (Mid-Pacific) or otherwise.
>>> 
>>> So shy all this drum-beating on inclusion issues? Well, because there ARE folks out there who are being left out, and who are not up to playing the tuba for themselves. I was really proud of Lisa for doing just that; I hope I can encourage others to do so.
>>> 
>>> I know, too, that it can be quite frustrating for the DB of today to have to slow down to let others catch up. We have an incredibly diverse community - a community embracing two languages that are followed/expressed using partial sight, partial hearing or touch, where the "normal" way to adjust to vision loss is to employ hearing, and the "normal" way to adjust to hearing loss is to employ vision; and when both are affected we have to scramble for solutions. OK, fine - when the going gets tough the tough get going, and all that jazz. I suggest that it is up to those of us who can to find the solutions for those who can't.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your willingness to roll up your sleeves and tackle some of these issues.
>>> 
>>> Rod
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Doula Jarboe via NFB-DB  <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
>>> To:  nfb-db at nfbnet.org
>>> CC: doula.jarboe at gmail.com
>>> Date: Thursday, June 8, 2023 6:30 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Rod,
>>>> 
>>>>    I thought with at least some caption platforms one is able to
>>>> control how the Braille display interacts.  I have enough hearing
>>>> that I don't use closed captioning or interpreters.  Last night's
>>>> meeting was captioned so there should be a transcript.  Keep in mind
>>>> that the women who were running the meeting aren't used to working directly with us, the DeafBlind division.
>>>> Hopefully you will get a transcript soon from last night's meeting.
>>>> I don't know everything about what works best for different people.
>>>> What I see as inclusion may not be enough for someone else with different circumstances.
>>>> That's why we need everyone's voice and experience to come up with
>>>> something that is fully inclusive.  I am on dialysis for kidney
>>>> failure as well as needing oxygen for my lungs, so traveling isn't
>>>> much of an option for me right now.  I'm not saying that my
>>>> situation and inability to attend convention in person makes me less
>>>> of a member.  But the conventions from
>>>> 2020 and 2021 showed that we can be much more inclusive by using
>>>> other means than just being in person.  So, what do we want for
>>>> solutions?  Both Carla and Shelia are on this list and can take
>>>> these back to the board.  I'm on the national DEI committee which is
>>>> another place to take ideas about inclusion.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NFB-DB <nfb-db-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rod and Ele
>>>> Macdonald via NFB-DB
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2023 9:27 PM
>>>> To: nfb-db at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Rod and Ele Macdonald <erjmacdonald at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?
>>>> 
>>>> Doula,
>>>> 
>>>> Excuse me, but I do not have equipment that can provide a virtual
>>>> solution for me; I have not had computer training in over 20 years,
>>>> and do not have access to it; and Zoom does not have features that support braille access.
>>>> Add to that I will soon be 82, cannot physically handle a 4,000-mile
>>>> trip, and do not have SSP support or the stamina to use an interpreter if I did.
>>>> In other words I can not participate in a Zoom meeting and I cannot
>>>> attend a convention.
>>>> 
>>>> Does that exclude me from participation? Not even a transcript to
>>>> follow along after the fact?
>>>> 
>>>> Rod
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Doula Jarboe via NFB-DB  <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
>>>> To:  nfb-db at nfbnet.org
>>>> CC: doula.jarboe at gmail.com
>>>> Date: Thursday, June 8, 2023 3:04 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Scott,
>>>>    Thank you for great questions.  Seems to me like the focus is
>>>> on being in person.  That it's too much of an expense to run in
>>>> person and have things fully virtual.  I know if people have the
>>>> right training and equipment and work arounds, that that is a
>>>> fixable issue.  When we discussed National Convention in the DEI
>>>> committee meeting, there were a number of ideas to help make being
>>>> in person more accommodating.  But those of us who keep trying to
>>>> push for more virtual involvement only seem to receive push back.
>>>> Divisions are allowed to run their meetings virtually if they are
>>>> able to do it on their own and can avoid the horrendous hotel fees.
>>>> How many people with multiple disabilities serve on the national board who might understand this?  To my knowledge Marci Carpenter is one of the few maybe.
>>>> This is our organization, so we need to get this figured out.
>>>> Warmly,
>>>> Doula
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NFB-DB <nfb-db-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Scott Davert
>>>> via NFB-DB
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2023 7:56 AM
>>>> To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Scott Davert <scottdavert at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?
>>>> Stuart brings up an extremely important point. So I must ask: what
>>>> happened to all of that talk during the pandemic about being more
>>>> inclusive and all that stuff about how they discovered so many great
>>>> things about having a virtual component? Where are said virtual
>>>> components in 2023? Do they exist and I'm just not aware?
>>>> With curiosity,
>>>> Scott
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> On Jun 8, 2023, at 09:42, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB
>>>> <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> ?Hi Tony, Stuart here.
>>>> Thanks so much for answering my question! I will stop paying dues
>>>> and going to meetings in that case. If possible, please expedite
>>>> removing me from counting in membership numbers.
>>>> As for the suggestion, I have no problem if others want to spend
>>>> time on that. If I'm told there's a chance for change that's one
>>>> thing, but I'm told there's no chance in this case and there are
>>>> other organizations that allow me to fully have a voice so I'll
>>>> focus there. Apparently this division is being reorganized yet still
>>>> can't be bothered to seek opportunity for inclusion at a fulcrum
>>>> point of potential change. Personally, I have more than enough
>>>> people I need to write into all the time and convince to do the
>>>> right thing in government, at businesses, in my neighborhood, for my
>>>> medical needs, and even within my family. I'd rather spend my time
>>>> advocating for DeafBlind rights with everyone else in the world than
>>>> pleading with other DeafBlind to get them to care or value other
>>>> DeafBlind with other disabilities that make them different. Doing
>>>> the latter to me uses up limited energy and saps motivation to
>>>> advocate for us all, because it really takes the wind out of my
>>>> sails the most when other DeafBlind find a way to be at ease with a status quo discriminating against the next person for their differences.
>>>> I appreciate the acknowledgement of frustration, thanks again very much!
>>>> EOM
>>>> On Jun 8, 2023, at 5:29 AM, Tony May <kg6sxy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ?Hello Stuart,
>>>> No one seems to have answered your original question.  To leave a
>>>> division, don't renew your membership and stop showing up to
>>>> meetings.  I know how frustrating it can feel when you can't vote in
>>>> person and can't travel.  You can still sway the opinions of people that can vote ahead of conventions.
>>>> It's not the same as a personal vote but it is better than nothing.
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Tony
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 8, 2023, at 2:27 AM, Stuart Salvador via NFB-DB
>>>> <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> ?Hi all, Stuart here with a clarification.
>>>> 
>>>> Proxy voting enables a vote in absence. An inclusive perspective may
>>>> posit we can establish a presence to effect change, exert influence
>>>> and advocate as best we're able, even when conditions or capacity
>>>> make travel untenable. Homebound, like me, are now able to
>>>> contribute more than ever, if allowed.
>>>> 
>>>> As an example: at one time, only landowners who maintained a
>>>> residence were permitted to vote. If instead only travelers can
>>>> vote, it seems the opposite extreme. Hypothetically, if someone came
>>>> on the news today to declare all who couldn't be physically present
>>>> at a specific US voting location somewhere in the country during a
>>>> specific period of time would now be prevented from voting entirely
>>>> by any means, I can't see how NFB could in good faith argue against
>>>> it when that's the practice NFB is apparently following for voting
>>>> itself. I would want to advocate against that, and I'd not want to
>>>> be undermined in my messaging by being a member of an organization
>>>> favoring or practicing it as the right to vote is foundational and fundamental.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks again!
>>>> EOM
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 12:34?AM Peter Donahue via NFB-DB
>>>>> <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Proxy voting has been a no-no in the federation for years.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NFB-DB <nfb-db-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Stuart
>>>>> Salvador via NFB-DB
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 10:35 PM
>>>>> To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Stuart Salvador <stuartsalvador at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Doula,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm sorry if I have anything incorrect. I understand that somehow I
>>>>> could
>>>> in some way have someone physically at the meeting move to elect
>>>> people who aren't present, but that's not my greatest concern. What
>>>> I understood was that, regardless of that, there's no provisions to
>>>> allow voting for anyone that can't physically travel or attend and
>>>> no chance to change that. Is that correct?
>>>>> 
>>>>> If so, my understanding was it doesn't matter what the constitution
>>>>> says
>>>> now or in the 1940's, who received it in advance, who is elected to
>>>> serve, or who is on a Board when, no matter what the organizational
>>>> division does, it will never permit voting by anyone who can't
>>>> physically be present wherever the meeting is located because it's
>>>> required to be in the constitution because it's what President
>>>> Riccobono and/or the Board of NFB says. Is that correct?
>>>>> 
>>>>> If yes to both, then as for my feelings on inclusion, what you are
>>>> hearing from me is accurate I think on my feeling. Basically, I have
>>>> more than enough challenges with discrimination already in my daily
>>>> life, and I already have everyone else in the world it feels like
>>>> attacking me these days. So, while I want to advocate for DeafBlind
>>>> like myself whenever and however I can, my feeling is I should not
>>>> be a member if persons with multiple disabilities who are DeafBlind
>>>> that prevent them from being in person to have a voice, yet are
>>>> paying dues, enter into a "taxation without representation"
>>>> relationship where they never actually vote in anyone who represents them because it won't ever be allowed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, my thinking was to figure out how do I not be a member since
>>>>> NFB
>>>> isn't including myself or others like me anyway. Otherwise, I
>>>> basically am giving a +1 to its practices as per its membership
>>>> number when I would feel like I'm doing something really wrong even if I'm only a drop in the bucket.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> EOM
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 10:03?PM Doula Jarboe via NFB-DB
>>>> <nfb-db at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Stuart,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What you are saying isn't correct.  The people at the in person
>>>>>> meeting can move to elect people who aren't present in person.  If
>>>>>> that motion passes, and you have someone there in person who
>>>>>> nominates you, then you may be elected without having to be there
>>>>>> in person.  I hear you saying that this goes against inclusion,
>>>>>> and I think that's something that needs to be worked on.  I hope
>>>>>> that clears
>>>> this up for you.
>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>> Doula
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: NFB-DB <nfb-db-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Stuart
>>>>>> Salvador via NFB-DB
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 7:28 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: Stuart Salvador <stuartsalvador at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: [NFB-DB] Membership Cancellation?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi all, Stuart here.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It came up on the call tonight that there's no provisions to allow
>>>>>> voting for anyone that can't physically travel or attend and no
>>>>>> chance to change that. I've enjoyed communicating on the
>>>>>> list-serv, but how does one stop being a member?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> EOM
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> ma
>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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