[nfb-talk] The NFB itself (was: Losing DVS)

David Andrews dandrews at visi.com
Sun Jan 18 05:07:39 UTC 2009 

John:  Let's turn this around the other way.  If we don't have a 
ground swell for DVS, why is that.  Maybe it is because it isn't that 
important to many blind persons.

Dave

At 10:56 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote:
>David,
>
>I just realized that this makes it sound like I was saying to you 
>that it "hasn't sunk in". I meant it hasn't sunk in to the members 
>of this list as a whole. I didn't mean to say anything about your 
>level of understanding of my point.
>
>I mean that people on this list keep questioning my motivation but I 
>would think it's absolutely obvious. The NFB keeps doing things that 
>appear to be counter to our best interests and for the life of me I 
>cannot figure out why more people aren't joining me much less why so 
>many are criticizing me. How can everybody approve of the NFB's 
>position on DVS when it seems to be so counter to the best interests 
>of blind people? I would think that we should be seeing a ground 
>swell against the NFB's position and maybe some small handful of 
>people trying to convince the rest of us that it's right.
>
>How can you explain that so many people have just accepted the NFB's 
>position even in the total lack of facts? It just makes no sense.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:03 AM
>Subject: [nfb-talk] The NFB itself (was: Losing DVS)
>
>
>>David,
>>
>>I've made this point so many times it's amazing to me that it still 
>>hasn't sunk in... The NFB and it's leaders have taken several 
>>positions that by all appearances seem to be counter to the best 
>>interests of blind people. Yet almost all the members of this list 
>>just accept them.
>>
>>Before I'd accept Dr. Maurer's claim that accessible money is 
>>counter to my best interests, I demand *proof*. Before I believe 
>>that I shouldn't be upset about losing DVS, I want proof that the 
>>NFB acted in my best interests when they aligned themselves with TV 
>>producers against the regulations that mandated audio descriptions. 
>>Dr. Jernigan once wrote and published an essay against the use of 
>>guide dogs claiming there was a conspiracy of silence among sighted 
>>people to tolerate guide dogs. I want to know why he thought that 
>>was so much more important than my safety and my ability to go from 
>>point A to point B.
>>
>>These are perfectly reasonable questions. any sensible person would 
>>behave exactly the way I am behaving. I expect the NFB to look out 
>>for my best interests and when they do things that by all 
>>appearances are counter to my best interests, I get upset. Why 
>>shouldn't I get upset?!
>>
>>Alan Wheeler keeps telling me that these are just my opinions. Yes, 
>>that's true. But it is not just my opinion that accessible money 
>>would make it easier for me to access my money, that DVS makes TV 
>>programs easier for me to understand, and that my guide dog helps 
>>me get around. If the NFB and it's leaders are going to take 
>>positions counter to my best interests, I have every right to 
>>*demand* an explanation and to demand an explanation that makes sense.
>>
>>s
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 3:38 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>
>>
>>>Dewey:
>>>
>>>You ask us to think for ourselves.  I would urge you to do the 
>>>same. Your message seems to be saying that those of us who agree 
>>>with NFB positions aren't thinking.  It isn't necessarily so.  I 
>>>have thought out different topics and may well decide I completely 
>>>agree with the NFB position.
>>>
>>>No one here should attack anybody else, whatever their position, 
>>>but people who agree with the NFB aren't necessarily thoughtless as you imply.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>At 07:39 PM 1/15/2009, you wrote:
>>>>I thought this list was so that we could talk about blindness?
>>>>Some of us on here are members, but also have are own minds, I 
>>>>don't just follow, I have my own mind, It's good to see that 
>>>>someone else does as well.
>>>>It's just like with the money thing, If It is made so that we can 
>>>>use It, then the NFB will tell you that no one will hire us, and 
>>>>most of the people on this list will just blindley follow.
>>>>Why don't anyone use there own head any more?
>>>>That's just like everyone voteing for who ever the media tells 
>>>>you to, what is wrong with people.
>>>>And I'm not trashing the NFB, I agree with most of the stuff they 
>>>>do, but some things I don't, but I'm not going to just not use my 
>>>>own head, I make up my own mind, I don't have someone els do It for me.
>>>>It sounds like someone else on here is the same way, but everyone 
>>>>has to atack them, no one wants to hear something that they 
>>>>disagree with, they want to hear things that they agree with and 
>>>>nothing else. Blind people jump my case because I report the bus 
>>>>drivers for not calling out the stops, That makes blind people look bad I guess
>>>>stop attacking people just because they don't follow you blindley.
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart" 
>>>><william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:17 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>John,
>>>>>
>>>>>Instead of wining at us, go forth and campaign for what you believe you
>>>>>need somewhere where it can possible do you some good.  Most of us do
>>>>>not share your belief.  So we are not going to try to force people to do
>>>>>what you want.
>>>>>
>>>>>You could, if you were so inclined, begin lobbying the government for
>>>>>what you want.  Before you claim that you cannot manage it as one
>>>>>person, you can align yourself with the ACB.  They are of the same mind
>>>>>set as yourself on this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>>All your posts have done here is reinforce the belief held by most of us
>>>>>that all you really want to do is complain about the NFB.  Take some
>>>>>positive action for a change and maybe we will take you more seriously.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>THANKS, WILLIAM
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>On Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>>>
>>>>>Exactly!
>>>>>
>>>>>The National Federation of the Blind -- note the word "blind" in the
>>>>>name --
>>>>>aligned itself withTV producers to overturn a FCC regulation that would
>>>>>have
>>>>>meant that I'd still have DVS.  I lost my access to DVS because the NFB
>>>>>doesn't think it should be mandatory.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks NFB.
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:17 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It's only your *OPINION* though that DVS should be mandatory.  You are
>>>>>
>>>>>>just mad because the NFB doesn't share your opinion.  Let's be honest
>>>>>>about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In Christ,
>>>>>>Alan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>+-+-+-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
>>>>>>Deuteronomy 6:4
>>>>>>~~~
>>>>>>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>>Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 08:47
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Every time I criticize the NFB, all you people want to do is make it
>>>>>>>about
>>>>>>>me. Well, as usual, I'm not going to allow that. This is not about
>>>>>me.  I
>>>>>>>am
>>>>>>>going to discuss the issue whether you like it or not!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I already provided a URL for a page that quotes the TV and movie
>>>>>>>producers
>>>>>>>using the NFB's own statements in it's legal argument.  These are
>>>>>>>*facts*.
>>>>>>>If you don't like them, too bad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The NFB made a mistake in opposing the mandate for DVS. If the
>>>>>mandate
>>>>>>>had
>>>>>>>continued, I'd have DVS on my digital broadcast today. Now, the best
>>>>>you
>>>>>>>can
>>>>>>>do is argue that the mandate would have been over turned regardless
>>>>>of
>>>>>>>what
>>>>>>>the NFB did. Yet the fact remains that the NFB opposed the mandate
>>>>>and
>>>>>>>almost certainly contributed to it being over turned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" 
>>>>>>><carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>To: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>; "NFB Talk Mailing List"
>>>>>>><nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 4:48 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ray,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You're wasting your breath on this score.  The party line held by
>>>>>some
>>>>>>>>organizations is that we oppose DVS, and anyone who stops supporting
>>>>>DVS
>>>>>>>>does so because of us.  You've been baited.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Joseph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 03:50:39PM -0600, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>With all due respect, sir, you are wrong.  Before explaining why,
>>>>>let me
>>>>>>>>>suggest that you correct your own misinformation by reading all we
>>>>>have
>>>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>say on the subject in the various Braille Monitors now available on
>>>>>our
>>>>>>>>>site.  Maybe instead of spouting off in impulsive and emotional
>>>>>>>>>irrational
>>>>>>>>>anger, you should better aquaint yourself with what we really said
>>>>>>>>>first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Old friend, what are you looking for?  After those many years
>>>>>abroad
>>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>>come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>>>>>own
>>>>>>>>>land"
>>>>>>>>>George Seferis
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Phone or Fax::
>>>>>>>>>+1 (985) 360-3375
>>>>>>>>>e-mail:
>>>>>>>>>rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>>>>>>>>>Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>--------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>1/15/2009
>>>>>>7:46 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
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