[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing

Bryan Schulz b.schulz at sbcglobal.net
Thu Oct 15 17:46:16 UTC 2009 

that's why i don't post much on here/these lists.
people don't have anything better to do with their time so they enjoy 
twisting others words.
i didn't criticize the co center, i just gave the reason for the activity.

Bryan Schulz

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing


> Alan,
>
> You shouldn't assume that anyone who disagrees with an NFB policy is 
> biased against them. Bryan may have very good reasons for his criticism. 
> In fact, it's harmful to the NFB to blame people for merely criticizing 
> the NFB. If the NFB is doing something wrong, how is it to improve if 
> people don't criticize it? And being harsh toward those who criticize the 
> NFB would tend to drive them out. You wouldn't want the NFB to be left as 
> nothing more than a collection of true believers, would you?
>
> If the NFB isn't wrong, then simply explaining that is the best approach. 
> People tend to see the truth and be persuaded by it. Truth itself has 
> power.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>> Hmmm, biased against the centers, are we?
>>
>> Personally, I think it's a nice approach, and they don't act like nazis 
>> or dictators about it, either.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> the gobbly goop explanation is that you will gain confidence from the 
>>> rock climbing so you can transfer that to other tasks that seem 
>>> impossible to you.
>>>
>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them 
>>>> for the opportunity to do things like rock climbing?  Because I would 
>>>> imagine that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it 
>>>> would be very difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most 
>>>> rock climbing places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I 
>>>> tried to sign up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when 
>>>> they found out I was blind.
>>>>
>>>> But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he 
>>>> shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with 
>>>> state governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But 
>>>> if these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they 
>>>> shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>
>>>> ---- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>
>>>>>    Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments 
>>>>> following
>>>>> yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all!
>>>>>
>>>>> Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb?  I'm referring to 
>>>>> the
>>>>> three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as 
>>>>> centers
>>>>> which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa and
>>>>> Nebraska?
>>>>>
>>>>> A. Yes
>>>>>
>>>>>  Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>> other complications?
>>>>>
>>>>> A.
>>>>>    Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>> agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's 
>>>>> statement
>>>>> that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>
>>>>> A.
>>>>>    Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from 
>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>> These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take 
>>>>> including
>>>>> participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>> exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to "Menuize" 
>>>>> the
>>>>> training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they 
>>>>> attempt
>>>>> to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions from 
>>>>> this
>>>>> or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on an
>>>>> individual basis.
>>>>>
>>>>>  What exempts people from this
>>>>> activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services from 
>>>>> our
>>>>> NFB agencies?
>>>>>
>>>>>    A.
>>>>>    Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a 
>>>>> student
>>>>> chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center students 
>>>>> must
>>>>> attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of 
>>>>> orientation
>>>>> and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the 
>>>>> entire
>>>>> center curriculum.
>>>>>
>>>>> A friend of mine returned from one of these centers.  He has a badly
>>>>> sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg!  Needless to say, 
>>>>> he is
>>>>> out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of time! 
>>>>> This
>>>>> person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this person 
>>>>> for
>>>>> giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my 
>>>>> age who
>>>>> is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing!  If I were in my 20s and 
>>>>> 30s, I
>>>>> wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond, 
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc 
>>>>> climbing,
>>>>> skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several 
>>>>> accounts of
>>>>> blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in 
>>>>> all
>>>>> aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so published 
>>>>> in The
>>>>> Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent 
>>>>> him
>>>>> from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are 
>>>>> numerous
>>>>> accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to 
>>>>> complete
>>>>> the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. This 
>>>>> should
>>>>> not be a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>    As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care 
>>>>> professionals
>>>>> are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about 
>>>>> blindness
>>>>> and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for a 
>>>>> doctor
>>>>> to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to 
>>>>> participate
>>>>> in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken 
>>>>> attitudes
>>>>> and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is 
>>>>> presented
>>>>> with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to 
>>>>> attend a
>>>>> sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and 
>>>>> that
>>>>> patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the 
>>>>> possibility
>>>>> that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock 
>>>>> climbing
>>>>> even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who 
>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>> believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>> activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons 
>>>>> and then
>>>>> reread your post.
>>>>>
>>>>>    I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All the
>>>>> best.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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