[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing

[David Andrews]

John:

The NFB is not telling you that you have to do this or that to be a 
good blind person, or that you have to go here or there, to be 
trained.  We offer an alternative -- we operate a few centers and 
have influenced a few others.  However, there are lots of other 
places in the country to receive training.  Our approach was 
developed by blind persons, for blind persons and it works for many 
people.  It however isn't the only approach, and no one is forcing 
you to go, participate, or even agree.

You seem to easily take offense at much we say and do.  I am not sure 
why.  If we are so wrong then just ignore us!

Dave

At 09:11 AM 10/16/2009, you wrote:
>Your question, "Would you rather take a chance or stand on the side 
>lines and wonder what it would have been like to take that chance?", 
>is what is known as a false dichotomy. The truth is that it's not an 
>either-or situation. I don't lack confidence  so I'm not going to 
>wonder what would have happened if I'd tried rock climbing.
>
>Again... The NFB should not assume that each and every blind person 
>needs to have their confidence boosted.  I resent the assumption 
>that if I wanted to get training at an NFB center, I'd have to prove 
>that I have confidence. If any other organization asked me to prove 
>that, I'd tell them to go ... somewhere.
>
>Here's the deal... If the NFB really wants us to be tough, strong, 
>independent people, why is it telling us how to live our lives? You 
>want to see true independence, well, here it is! I am not going to 
>let the NFB or anybody else tell me how to live my life. I don't 
>want anyone assuming that I lack confidence simply because I am 
>blind. I don't want the NFB or anybody else judging my character 
>based solely upon the fact that I am blind.
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tanna G. Shoyo" <tshoyo at neb.rr.com>
>To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>>It sounds like a case of judging a book by it's cover to me.  Rock 
>>climbing is a way to boost your confidence in your abilities.  Let 
>>me pose this question:  Would you rather take a chance or stand on 
>>the side lines and wonder what it would have been like to take that 
>>chance.  I attempted to climb a rock wall when I worked with blind 
>>youth and a few of my students made it to the top and others 
>>couldn't get themselves off the ground.  I commend them because they tried.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>>Ah the classic "super blindy" generalization people like to make 
>>>about the NFB.  There may be some in the NFB with this attitude, 
>>>but it doesn't accurately reflect the organization as a whole.  If 
>>>I shouldn't make assumptions like the one I was corrected on 
>>>earlier, then generalizations like this one should not be allowed 
>>>to stand, either, in my opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:46 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>>In my opinion, it's just another example of the NFB turning it's 
>>>>back on the part of the blind community that needs it 
>>>>most.   This is exactly why the NFB philosophy is so harmful. 
>>>>Rock climbing just isn't for everyone. You shouldn't have to be 
>>>>super, rock climbing blind guy (or gal) to receive services from the NFB.
>>>>
>>>>The NFB philosophy blames the victim. If you aren't making it in 
>>>>this world, it's your own fault. Get in here and get some 
>>>>climbing in and everything will be rosy. But  I'd like to see 
>>>>some real evidence that rock climbing makes any difference what 
>>>>so ever. Oh, I have little doubt that those who go through with 
>>>>the climbing do better than those who don't. But that's most 
>>>>likely because they're more motivated in the first place. Of 
>>>>course people who are willing to climb rocks do better than those 
>>>>who don't. But what about all those people who are scared away 
>>>>from the NFB centers because they have to climb rocks? Doesn't 
>>>>the NFB have a responsibility to aid those people too? Don't they 
>>>>have an even *greater* responsibility to help those people?
>>>>
>>>>Essentially, the NFB philosophy says we're only going to help 
>>>>people who don't really need our help that much. We're only going 
>>>>to help people who probably would make it on their own anyway. If 
>>>>you're really messed up, well, too bad for you. If you're not 
>>>>super blind guy (or gal) we're not interested in helping you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" 
>>>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>To: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing 
>>>>List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>    Exactly. Anyone who doesn't want to fulfill this requirement for
>>>>>successful completion of training at one of our centers needs to rethink
>>>>>their choice of orientation and adjustment center. Informed choice rules!
>>>>>
>>>>>Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:03 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It is considered a requirement for graduation from the center. 
>>>>>Everything is
>>>>>discussed prior to enrollment and is simply par for the course.
>>>>>
>>>>>-original message-
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>Date: 10/15/2009 10:31 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>oh yea,
>>>>>
>>>>>try getting out of it!
>>>>>
>>>>>Bryan Schulz
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:44 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>No one is forced.  It is, to my knowledge, just an option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them for
>>>>>>>the opportunity to do things like rock climbing?  Because I 
>>>>>>>would imagine
>>>>>>>that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it would be very
>>>>>>>difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most rock climbing
>>>>>>>places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I tried to sign
>>>>>>>up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when they found out I
>>>>>>>was blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>>>>shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with state
>>>>>>>governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But if
>>>>>>>these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they
>>>>>>>shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>---- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" 
>>>>>>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>>>>following
>>>>>>>>yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hello all!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb?  I'm 
>>>>>>>>referring to the
>>>>>>>>three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>>>>centers
>>>>>>>>which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa and
>>>>>>>>Nebraska?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>A. Yes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>>>other complications?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>>>    Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>>>agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>>>>statement
>>>>>>>>that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>>>    Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from 
>>>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>>>These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>>>>including
>>>>>>>>participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>>>>exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to "Menuize"
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they
>>>>>>>>attempt
>>>>>>>>to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions from
>>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on an
>>>>>>>>individual basis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  What exempts people from this
>>>>>>>>activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services from
>>>>>>>>our
>>>>>>>>NFB agencies?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    A.
>>>>>>>>    Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a
>>>>>>>>student
>>>>>>>>chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center students
>>>>>>>>must
>>>>>>>>attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>>>>orientation
>>>>>>>>and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the entire
>>>>>>>>center curriculum.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>A friend of mine returned from one of these centers.  He has a badly
>>>>>>>>sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg!  Needless 
>>>>>>>>to say, he
>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of time!
>>>>>>>>This
>>>>>>>>person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this person
>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a 
>>>>>>>>person my age
>>>>>>>>who
>>>>>>>>is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing!  If I were in my 20s and
>>>>>>>>30s, I
>>>>>>>>wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and 
>>>>>>>>beyond, I'd
>>>>>>>>question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>>>>climbing,
>>>>>>>>skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several accounts
>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in all
>>>>>>>>aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so 
>>>>>>>>published in
>>>>>>>>The
>>>>>>>>Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident 
>>>>>>>>prevent him
>>>>>>>>from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>>>>numerous
>>>>>>>>accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>>>>complete
>>>>>>>>the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. This
>>>>>>>>should
>>>>>>>>not be a problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>>>>professionals
>>>>>>>>are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>>>>blindness
>>>>>>>>and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for a
>>>>>>>>doctor
>>>>>>>>to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>>>>participate
>>>>>>>>in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>>>>attitudes
>>>>>>>>and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>>>>presented
>>>>>>>>with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>>>>attend a
>>>>>>>>sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and
>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the 
>>>>>>>>possibility
>>>>>>>>that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>>>>climbing
>>>>>>>>even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>>>>mistakenly
>>>>>>>>believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>>>activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons and
>>>>>>>>then
>>>>>>>>reread your post.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All the
>>>>>>>>best.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Peter Donahue