[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing

Alan awheeler at neb.rr.com
Fri Oct 16 15:57:51 UTC 2009


Thanks, Dave.  I do apologize for the language in my previous post.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing


> John:
>
> I think you are making assumptions that just aren't true -- because they 
> fit your preconceived notions of the NFB.  My agency pays for and sends 
> students to BLIND Inc. all the time.  These students aren't all NFB 
> members, and they have the full spectrum of abilities.  They also have 
> varying degrees of motivation, and they also have varying degrees of 
> success.  So, the reality is that NFB centers serve a range of people --  
> not just super blind persons.
>
> Dave
>
> At 04:46 PM 10/15/2009, you wrote:
>>In my opinion, it's just another example of the NFB turning it's back on 
>>the part of the blind community that needs it most.   This is exactly why 
>>the NFB philosophy is so harmful. Rock climbing just isn't for everyone. 
>>You shouldn't have to be super, rock climbing blind guy (or gal) to 
>>receive services from the NFB.
>>
>>The NFB philosophy blames the victim. If you aren't making it in this 
>>world, it's your own fault. Get in here and get some climbing in and 
>>everything will be rosy. But  I'd like to see some real evidence that rock 
>>climbing makes any difference what so ever. Oh, I have little doubt that 
>>those who go through with the climbing do better than those who don't. But 
>>that's most likely because they're more motivated in the first place. Of 
>>course people who are willing to climb rocks do better than those who 
>>don't. But what about all those people who are scared away from the NFB 
>>centers because they have to climb rocks? Doesn't the NFB have a 
>>responsibility to aid those people too? Don't they have an even *greater* 
>>responsibility to help those people?
>>
>>Essentially, the NFB philosophy says we're only going to help people who 
>>don't really need our help that much. We're only going to help people who 
>>probably would make it on their own anyway. If you're really messed up, 
>>well, too bad for you. If you're not super blind guy (or gal) we're not 
>>interested in helping you.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" 
>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>To: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" 
>><nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>>Good afternoon everyone,
>>>
>>>    Exactly. Anyone who doesn't want to fulfill this requirement for
>>>successful completion of training at one of our centers needs to rethink
>>>their choice of orientation and adjustment center. Informed choice rules!
>>>
>>>Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:03 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>It is considered a requirement for graduation from the center. Everything 
>>>is
>>>discussed prior to enrollment and is simply par for the course.
>>>
>>>-original message-
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>Date: 10/15/2009 10:31 AM
>>>
>>>oh yea,
>>>
>>>try getting out of it!
>>>
>>>Bryan Schulz
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:44 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>>No one is forced.  It is, to my knowledge, just an option.
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them 
>>>>>for
>>>>>the opportunity to do things like rock climbing?  Because I would 
>>>>>imagine
>>>>>that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it would be 
>>>>>very
>>>>>difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most rock climbing
>>>>>places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I tried to sign
>>>>>up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when they found out 
>>>>>I
>>>>>was blind.
>>>>>
>>>>>But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>>shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with 
>>>>>state
>>>>>governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But if
>>>>>these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they
>>>>>shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>
>>>>>---- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" 
>>>>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>>following
>>>>>>yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hello all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb?  I'm referring to 
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>>centers
>>>>>>which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa and
>>>>>>Nebraska?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A. Yes
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>other complications?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>    Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>>statement
>>>>>>that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>    Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from 
>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>>including
>>>>>>participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>>exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to "Menuize"
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they
>>>>>>attempt
>>>>>>to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions from
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on an
>>>>>>individual basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  What exempts people from this
>>>>>>activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services from
>>>>>>our
>>>>>>NFB agencies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    A.
>>>>>>    Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a
>>>>>>student
>>>>>>chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center students
>>>>>>must
>>>>>>attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>>orientation
>>>>>>and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the 
>>>>>>entire
>>>>>>center curriculum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A friend of mine returned from one of these centers.  He has a badly
>>>>>>sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg!  Needless to say, 
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of time!
>>>>>>This
>>>>>>person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this person
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my 
>>>>>>age
>>>>>>who
>>>>>>is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing!  If I were in my 20s and
>>>>>>30s, I
>>>>>>wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond, 
>>>>>>I'd
>>>>>>question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>>climbing,
>>>>>>skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several 
>>>>>>accounts
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in 
>>>>>>all
>>>>>>aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so published 
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>The
>>>>>>Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent 
>>>>>>him
>>>>>>from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>>numerous
>>>>>>accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>>complete
>>>>>>the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. This
>>>>>>should
>>>>>>not be a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>>professionals
>>>>>>are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>>blindness
>>>>>>and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for a
>>>>>>doctor
>>>>>>to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>>participate
>>>>>>in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>>attitudes
>>>>>>and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>>presented
>>>>>>with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>>attend a
>>>>>>sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the 
>>>>>>possibility
>>>>>>that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>>climbing
>>>>>>even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>>mistakenly
>>>>>>believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons 
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>then
>>>>>>reread your post.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Peter Donahue
>
>
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