[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing

Fri Oct 16 17:08:03 UTC 2009

hi,

would you prefer i said drink the kool aid? because that's how i have heard 
non diehard nfb people label the others that think the nfb can do nothing 
wrong.

Bryan Schulz

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing

> Well, I never use words like that and I amconstantly being accused of 
> having a bias anyway. The truth is that most of the people on this list 
> see any criticism, no matter how valid or how carefully worded, as bias on 
> the part of the writer. But the main problem on this list is not with 
> people coming in herewith a bias against the NFB. Quite the contrary, the 
> problem is that far too many people are totally unwilling to listen to any 
> criticism of the NFB.
>
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>> You can't ask us not to read anything into your explanation when you use 
>> words like gobbldy goop!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>   At 12:35 PM 10/15/2009, you wrote:
>>>don't read anything extra into it.
>>>not at all.
>>>i was just telling jim what the theory is.
>>>
>>>Bryan Schulz
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:55 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hmmm, biased against the centers, are we?
>>>>
>>>>Personally, I think it's a nice approach, and they don't act like nazis 
>>>>or dictators about it, either.
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" 
>>>><b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:14 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>the gobbly goop explanation is that you will gain confidence from the 
>>>>>rock climbing so you can transfer that to other tasks that seem 
>>>>>impossible to you.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bryan Schulz
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them 
>>>>>>for the opportunity to do things like rock climbing?  Because I would 
>>>>>>imagine that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it 
>>>>>>would be very difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most 
>>>>>>rock climbing places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time 
>>>>>>I tried to sign up for a wood working class and they kicked me out 
>>>>>>when they found out I was blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he 
>>>>>>shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with 
>>>>>>state governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. 
>>>>>>But if these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then 
>>>>>>they shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" 
>>>>>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments 
>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hello all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb?  I'm referring to 
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as 
>>>>>>>centers
>>>>>>>which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa 
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>Nebraska?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A. Yes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>>other complications?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>>    Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>>agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's 
>>>>>>>statement
>>>>>>>that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>>    Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from 
>>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>>These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take 
>>>>>>>including
>>>>>>>participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>>>exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to 
>>>>>>>"Menuize" the
>>>>>>>training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they 
>>>>>>>attempt
>>>>>>>to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions 
>>>>>>>from this
>>>>>>>or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on 
>>>>>>>an
>>>>>>>individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  What exempts people from this
>>>>>>>activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services from 
>>>>>>>our
>>>>>>>NFB agencies?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    A.
>>>>>>>    Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a 
>>>>>>> student
>>>>>>>chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center students 
>>>>>>>must
>>>>>>>attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of 
>>>>>>>orientation
>>>>>>>and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the 
>>>>>>>entire
>>>>>>>center curriculum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A friend of mine returned from one of these centers.  He has a badly
>>>>>>>sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg!  Needless to say, 
>>>>>>>he is
>>>>>>>out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of time! 
>>>>>>>This
>>>>>>>person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this person 
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my 
>>>>>>>age who
>>>>>>>is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing!  If I were in my 20s and 
>>>>>>>30s, I
>>>>>>>wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond, 
>>>>>>>I'd
>>>>>>>question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc 
>>>>>>> climbing,
>>>>>>>skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several 
>>>>>>>accounts of
>>>>>>>blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in 
>>>>>>>all
>>>>>>>aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so published 
>>>>>>>in The
>>>>>>>Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent 
>>>>>>>him
>>>>>>>from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are 
>>>>>>>numerous
>>>>>>>accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to 
>>>>>>>complete
>>>>>>>the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. This 
>>>>>>>should
>>>>>>>not be a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care 
>>>>>>> professionals
>>>>>>>are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about 
>>>>>>>blindness
>>>>>>>and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for a 
>>>>>>>doctor
>>>>>>>to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to 
>>>>>>>participate
>>>>>>>in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken 
>>>>>>>attitudes
>>>>>>>and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is 
>>>>>>>presented
>>>>>>>with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to 
>>>>>>>attend a
>>>>>>>sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and 
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the 
>>>>>>>possibility
>>>>>>>that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock 
>>>>>>>climbing
>>>>>>>even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who 
>>>>>>>mistakenly
>>>>>>>believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>>activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons 
>>>>>>>and then
>>>>>>>reread your post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Peter Donahue
>>
>>
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