[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

[David Andrews]

Ray:

I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing to 
do with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog (smile.)  Your 
language in this message is diplomatic and considered and I think 
accomplishes more than some previous messages.  People get caught up 
in this and that and don't hear the message.

I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the price 
for things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is just to 
high, but with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not there yet.

No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale 
replacement is slim.

Dave

At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
>All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal 
>fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the 
>best way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that 
>is a crime in the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty 
>as one can get.  Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not 
>negate the eventual fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI 
>and create something better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly 
>here.  We need to shut down SSI and social security.  those things 
>punish the blind for trying to work.  I said it last night and I'll 
>say it again.  IF a blind person tries to go to work, they don't 
>make enough money to live, and yet, too much money to get needed 
>help.  How do I know?  It happened to me.  So, with all due respect, 
>don't tell me I know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not saying that 
>those who need help should not get it; but, can we not even be 
>honest with ourselves and each other about the fact that our current 
>set up may not be the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS that 
>too hard to do?  Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in 
>this message and there's no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, 
>it's too late.  If we can't even be honest with ourselves about 
>this, what have we come too?
>Sincerely,
>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>
>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>
>E-Mail:
>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>Skype:
>barefootedray
>
>On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>
> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of 
> sense to me and it is something I try to do often.
> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this 
> notion is that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further 
> believe we need to think about the cost of what we
> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to 
> society.  These seem like reasonable questions that should
> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even 
> what Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a 
> sense of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types 
> are no longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as 
> having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize 
> reality.  To extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
> > just a theory.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Steve Jacobson
> >
> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
> >
> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in discussing
> >> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
> >> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. 
> Far too many
> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons to
> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for 
> disaster.  That's
> >> how mistakes are made.
> >
> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking 
> of calling
> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of speech.
> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not 
> just because
> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so 
> important is that it
> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each 
> other in a
> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins.  Its
> >> called the market place of ideas.
> >
> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of 
> ideas to their
> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most 
> people to do.
> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start 
> casting about
> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And that 
> is a recipe
> >> for wrongness.
> >
> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you 
> believe, you
> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better chess
> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all of my
> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get a
> >> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my opponent's
> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not 
> see? Is he
> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
> >> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was 
> like magic.
> >
> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance of
> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there 
> is how few
> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess players.
> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
> >
> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
> >> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political 
> opinions, take
> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or not. Do
> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my 
> beliefs? Do I
> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the 
> facts?  If more
> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world 
> would be a
> >> better place.
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >
> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative and
> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used to
> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
> >
> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into anger and
> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and others
> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see our
> >> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve 
> disintegrate
> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political 
> leanings.  Knock off
> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each 
> other names and
> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it is to
> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind Americans
> >> should have.
> >
> >
> >> Mike Hingson
> >
> >
> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
> >> "Speaking with Vision"
> >> Michael Hingson, President
> >> (415) 827-4084
> >> info at michaelhingson.com
> >> www.michaelhingson.com
> >
> >
> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >
> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
> >
> >
> >> Sincerely,
> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >
> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >
> >> E-Mail:
> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >> Skype:
> >> barefootedray
> >
> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
> >
> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally 
> you refrain
> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The 
> correct term is
> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> RyanO,
> >>>>
> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue stand for
> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps some
> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps the
> >> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But 
> why?  It's the
> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor blind
> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for 
> many of us,
> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of us don't
> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When we do,
> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand, we make
> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system.  What,
> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many blind
> >> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that 
> government will
> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what that
> >> really means, you'll see that i
> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It personally
> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
> >> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
> >> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my fellow
> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to hate
> >> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the 
> blind.  That turns my
> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the 
> federation fail to
> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being in bed
> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely hoping
> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking book
> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to 
> ride the back
> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, however, that
> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, 
> I personally
> >> couldn't care whether any individu
> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is the fact
> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to have to
> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for that
> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being looked
> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be 
> enough.  What I
> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation, but
> >> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the 
> entitlement
> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> E-Mail:
> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>>> Skype:
> >>>> barefootedray
> >>>>
> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dave
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to reach out
> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative 
> to come speak
> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability 
> issues. We
> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of our
> >> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of phone
> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
> >> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because, "Obama
> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and 
> hurt. We tried
> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we 
> didn't matter.
> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
> >> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second 
> option was to
> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all levels.
> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires. It is
> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
> >> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is welcome on
> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the spirit of
> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion 
> fosters a more
> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I plan to
> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please Email
> >> me at
> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> RyanO