[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

John G. Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Thu Apr 22 21:53:57 UTC 2010


What the heck are you talking about? I offered Ray a real way to start 
implementing his ideas. You could hardly be *less* dogmatic than that.

Ray offers this completely unrealistic idea for doing away with SSI and I 
offer him a realistic way to make a difference, however small,  and *I* am 
the one accused of being dogmatic?  Its insane.

---- Original Message ----- 
From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives


> John, you are not reading past Ray's conservative politics to the crux of
> the problem -- you're both trying to solve the same problem I believe --  
> Ray
> is just musing on how to do that from one approach, you from another. You
> are being as dogmatic as you say Ray is, but of course it is good you are
> employed and attempting a solution.
> I grew up trying to beat the stereotypes and do as much as possible -- I
> won't bore everyone more with that, but I wanted to add that it was nice
> when I was in school to have the government programs available to help the
> process along.
> I think Ray is just saying that the handouts should be temporary, right 
> Ray?
> Now before I get in more hot water I'll leave you both to your sniping.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 10:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
> Ray,
>
> Why do you keep saying somebody should do this or somebody should do that?
> Why don't you just do it?
>
> I'll tell you what... I am the President of a non-profit called the
> International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. See
> http://www.iavit.org. We could use someone to maintain our web site.  If 
> you
> can gather enough donations to IAVIT, we'll hire the person of your choice
> to maintain our web site. They'll have to be qualified, of course. But you
> can pick someone currently on SSI and we'll give them a job.
>
> PS: You really need to knock  off this hhonesty bullstuff.  People with
> opinions that differ from yours aren't simply being dishonest. That's
> insulting because it implies that you have some kind of monopoly on the
> truth. You don't. In fact, you have nothing but your unsubstantiated
> opinions. When I've asked you for substantiation, you have mrely repeated
> your opinions as if that proves them.  So knock it off with the intestinal
> fortitude and honesty stuff. If you want me to believe you're right then
> prove it.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>> Agreed, we are not there yet.  Perhaps what is needed is some individual
>> or group of individuals composed of blind people who are no longer on SSI
>> and who are federationists to seriously sit down and ask the question,
>> just how can we help those on SSI and who do have legitimate need get off
>> SSI and in to good jobs?  Maybe one individual could start a networking
>> process that might lead eventually to some better solution.  Look, folks,
>> if we say that the simplist solution is just to leave things as they are,
>> how can we any longer say that we're inovaative about providing or trying
>> to provide solutions to these very real world problems.  No, our 
>> solutions
>> most likely won't be perfect, but, can we not even be honest with
>> ourselves enough to admit that we do need some better way?
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>
>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> skype:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:19 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> Ray:
>>>
>>> I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing to do
>>> with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog (smile.)  Your language
>>> in this message is diplomatic and considered and I think accomplishes
>>> more than some previous messages.  People get caught up in this and that
>>> and don't hear the message.
>>>
>>> I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the price for
>>> things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is just to high,
>>> but with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not there yet.
>>>
>>> No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale replacement
>>> is slim.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>> All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal
>>>> fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best
>>>> way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a 
>>>> crime
>>>> in the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one can 
>>>> get.
>>>> Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the eventual
>>>> fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create something
>>>> better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to shut down SSI
>>>> and social security.  those things punish the blind for trying to work.
>>>> I said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a blind person tries to
>>>> go to work, they don't make enough money to live, and yet, too much
>>>> money to get needed help.  How do I know?  It happened to me.  So, with
>>>> all due respect, don't tell me I know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not
>>>> saying that those who need help should not get it; but, can we not even
>>>> be honest with ourselves and each other about the fact that our
>> current set up may not be the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS
>> that too hard to do?  Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in 
>> this
>> message and there's no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too
>> late.  If we can't even be honest with ourselves about this, what have we
>> come too?
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of sense 
>>>> > to
>>>> > me and it is something I try to do often.
>>>> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this notion is
>>>> > that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>>>> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further 
>>>> > believe
>>>> > we need to think about the cost of what we
>>>> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to society.
>>>> > These seem like reasonable questions that should
>>>> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even what
>>>> > Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>>>> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a sense
>>>> > of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>>>> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types are no
>>>> > longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>>>> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as
>>>> > having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>>>> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize reality.  To
>>>> > extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>>>> > just a theory.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best regards,
>>>> >
>>>> > Steve Jacobson
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in
>>>> >> discussing
>>>> >> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>> >> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far
>>>> >> too many
>>>> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for disaster.
>>>> >> That's
>>>> >> how mistakes are made.
>>>> >
>>>> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of
>>>> >> calling
>>>> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of
>>>> >> speech.
>>>> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not just
>>>> >> because
>>>> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important is
>>>> >> that it
>>>> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
>>>> >> other in a
>>>> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins.
>>>> >> Its
>>>> >> called the market place of ideas.
>>>> >
>>>> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas 
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> their
>>>> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most 
>>>> >> people
>>>> >> to do.
>>>> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start casting
>>>> >> about
>>>> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And that is a
>>>> >> recipe
>>>> >> for wrongness.
>>>> >
>>>> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
>>>> >> believe, you
>>>> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better
>>>> >> chess
>>>> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all
>>>> >> of my
>>>> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get 
>>>> >> a
>>>> >> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my
>>>> >> opponent's
>>>> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not see?
>>>> >> Is he
>>>> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>> >> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was like
>>>> >> magic.
>>>> >
>>>> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is
>>>> >> how few
>>>> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess
>>>> >> players.
>>>> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>> >> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
>>>> >> opinions, take
>>>> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or 
>>>> >> not.
>>>> >> Do
>>>> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my 
>>>> >> beliefs?
>>>> >> Do I
>>>> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the facts? 
>>>> >> If
>>>> >> more
>>>> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world 
>>>> >> would
>>>> >> be a
>>>> >> better place.
>>>> >
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Hi all,
>>>> >
>>>> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>> >
>>>> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into 
>>>> >> anger
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and
>>>> >> others
>>>> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see 
>>>> >> our
>>>> >> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve
>>>> >> disintegrate
>>>> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political leanings.
>>>> >> Knock off
>>>> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each other
>>>> >> names and
>>>> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it 
>>>> >> is
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind
>>>> >> Americans
>>>> >> should have.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Mike Hingson
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>> >> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>> >> Michael Hingson, President
>>>> >> (415) 827-4084
>>>> >> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>> >> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> >> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>> >
>>>> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Sincerely,
>>>> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>> >
>>>> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>> >
>>>> >> E-Mail:
>>>> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> >> Skype:
>>>> >> barefootedray
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you
>>>> >>> refrain
>>>> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct
>>>> >> term is
>>>> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr"
>>>> >>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> RyanO,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue 
>>>> >>>> stand
>>>> >>>> for
>>>> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps
>>>> >> some
>>>> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But why?
>>>> >> It's the
>>>> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor
>>>> >> blind
>>>> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for 
>>>> >> many
>>>> >> of us,
>>>> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of us
>>>> >> don't
>>>> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When
>>>> >> we do,
>>>> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand, 
>>>> >> we
>>>> >> make
>>>> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system.
>>>> >> What,
>>>> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many 
>>>> >> blind
>>>> >> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
>>>> >> government will
>>>> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> really means, you'll see that i
>>>> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It
>>>> >>>> personally
>>>> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>> >> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>> >> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my
>>>> >> fellow
>>>> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to 
>>>> >> hate
>>>> >> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind.  That
>>>> >> turns my
>>>> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the federation
>>>> >> fail to
>>>> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being
>>>> >> in bed
>>>> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely
>>>> >> hoping
>>>> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking
>>>> >> book
>>>> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride
>>>> >> the back
>>>> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, 
>>>> >> however,
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I
>>>> >> personally
>>>> >> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is the
>>>> >> fact
>>>> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to
>>>> >> have to
>>>> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being
>>>> >> looked
>>>> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be enough.
>>>> >> What I
>>>> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation,
>>>> >> but
>>>> >> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the
>>>> >> entitlement
>>>> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Sincerely,
>>>> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> E-Mail:
>>>> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> >>>> Skype:
>>>> >>>> barefootedray
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Dave
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to 
>>>> >>>>> reach
>>>> >>>>> out
>>>> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to
>>>> >> come speak
>>>> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
>>>> >> issues. We
>>>> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of 
>>>> >> our
>>>> >> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of
>>>> >> phone
>>>> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>> >> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because,
>>>> >> "Obama
>>>> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt. 
>>>> >>>>> We
>>>> >>>>> tried
>>>> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we didn't
>>>> >> matter.
>>>> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>> >> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second option
>>>> >> was to
>>>> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all
>>>> >> levels.
>>>> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires. 
>>>> >>>>> It
>>>> >>>>> is
>>>> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>> >> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is 
>>>> >> welcome
>>>> >> on
>>>> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the
>>>> >> spirit of
>>>> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion fosters
>>>> >> a more
>>>> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I 
>>>> >>>>> plan
>>>> >>>>> to
>>>> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please
>>>> >> Email
>>>> >> me at
>>>> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> RyanO
>>>
>>>
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